IFR with expired database

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djm181

Filing Flight Plan
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Austin, TX
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David
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
 
djm181 said:
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
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I believe you can file /G as long as you verify any procedures you might use have not changed.
 
If your other equipment is current and sufficient and you do not need the GPS to navigate and only use it as you would a VFR GPS ("situational awareness") then I cannot see how this could be illegal.
 
djm181 said:
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
Click to expand...
I have also heard that you may request gps direct with vectors legally in this instance.
 
EppyGA said:
I believe you can file /G as long as you verify any procedures you might use have not changed.
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That's generally true for most GPS IFR navigators but the POH supplement for the specific GPS is the final reference. In any case there's no need to file /U as long as the GPS is working. AFaIK, with all of them you are legal to use it for enroute and terminal (i.e. non-approach lateral guidance) as long as you verify that the location of any fix used hasn't changed. For approaches the supplements generally require that you confirm that the entire procedure is up to date which can be done by comparing the date of the DB update cycle with the major revision date on the chart for the approach.
 
djm181 said:
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
Click to expand...

Its legal.
 
Like Gismo said. Our 530 says we do not need to have a current data base for IFR if we verify the points along the route have not changed. So check your POH or supplemental certificate to see what the wording says.

AOPA has a good IFR GPS online class that goes into this a little bit as well.
 
Does anyone have regs to back this up?
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It's in the AIM. Footnotes 2 and 3 to table 1-1-6. The first response to your post is basically footnote #3.
 
Yeah. But with a GTN 750, why would you want to do that? That's the ultimate in pound foolish. Yeah, Jepp charges too much. But you did it for Garmin, so what's restraining you?


If on the road, I download to my laptop....
 
bbchien said:
Yeah. But with a GTN 750, why would you want to do that? That's the ultimate in pound foolish. Yeah, Jepp charges too much. But you did it for Garmin, so what's restraining you?
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Not my plane, and the fbo plans to update tomorrow.

I checked the GTN afm supplement and it says no problem for enroute as long as you verify, but for a GPS approach, you need a current database.

Thanks for the help y'all.
 
djm181 said:
Not my plane, and the fbo plans to update tomorrow.

I checked the GTN afm supplement and it says no problem for enroute as long as you verify, but for a GPS approach, you need a current database.

Thanks for the help y'all.
Click to expand...

And we have a winner!
 
airdale said:
It's in the AIM. Footnotes 2 and 3 to table 1-1-6. The first response to your post is basically footnote #3.
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The AIM only give the outside limit on this. Your AFMS may be more restrictive, and that overrides anything in the regs or AIM.
 
djm181 said:
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
Click to expand...

Something like this came up at work last week. If you go, make sure any ILS, VORs, LOC, are working for any approach you do plan to use.
 
djm181 said:
Is it still legal to file ifr with a GTN 750 with an expired database if you file and fly /U? That would mean sticking to airways and using the nav receiver instead of the GPS too.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if you could file /A, since GPS is an allowable substitute for DME.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm wondering if you could file /A, since GPS is an allowable substitute for DME.
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Slant alpha is equipment specific. So no, you cannot file slant alpha without a physical dme unit.

This is to do about nothing. As long as you have an enroute certified Ifr GPS unit you can file slant golf, in accordance to the legalese already repeated ad nauseam in the thread.
 
kontiki said:
Something like this came up at work last week. If you go, make sure any ILS, VORs, LOC, are working for any approach you do plan to use.
Click to expand...
Again, this is covered in the AFMS, and the answer varies and may not be what kontiki said.
 
Wait till you wind up with the bird in the trees and the FSDO finds you were in IMC with an obsolete GPS database (whether you used it or not).
Lets see - how many ways can we spell careless and reckless?
They can (and do) yank ATP ratings and pull 135 certificates and fail check rides for mere typos in the paper work.
They yanked Hoover's ticket just because an inspector had hurt feelings.
And you think you are gonna let you skate by with an obsolete IFR database in IMC conditions just because you "checked"?
How do you prove you checked?
How do you 'correct' your geo referenced plate to show that the IAF has moved?
How does the obsolete database know that you won't have to divert to a third and unchecked alternative if the weather goes down the toilet - like CB with hail parked over the first two.

Don't take me wrong - I am 100% for the pilot and against the heavy hand of big brother. But it is sheet-for-brains thinking that you can launch into IMC with expired charts/plates just because you checked. And it does not matter that some MFD manufacturer puts it in the manual that you can, because the inspector will laugh as he issues an emergency revocation of your certificate.

Come on guys - it is pilots with wishful thinking and sloppy flying that keeps the FAA coming down on the backs of the rest of us.
 
way to make a mountain out of an anthill

Nothing is hard to verify before flight. And in your own words, just stay out of the trees.


Dr. O said:
Wait till you wind up with the bird in the trees and the FSDO finds you were in IMC with an obsolete GPS database (whether you used it or not).
Lets see - how many ways can we spell careless and reckless?
They can (and do) yank ATP ratings and pull 135 certificates and fail check rides for mere typos in the paper work.
They yanked Hoover's ticket just because an inspector had hurt feelings.
And you think you are gonna let you skate by with an obsolete IFR database in IMC conditions just because you "checked"?
How do you prove you checked?
How do you 'correct' your geo referenced plate to show that the IAF has moved?
How does the obsolete database know that you won't have to divert to a third and unchecked alternative if the weather goes down the toilet - like CB with hail parked over the first two.

Don't take me wrong - I am 100% for the pilot and against the heavy hand of big brother. But it is sheet-for-brains thinking that you can launch into IMC with expired charts/plates just because you checked. And it does not matter that some MFD manufacturer puts it in the manual that you can, because the inspector will laugh as he issues an emergency revocation of your certificate.

Come on guys - it is pilots with wishful thinking and sloppy flying that keeps the FAA coming down on the backs of the rest of us.
Click to expand...
 
Dr. O said:
How does the obsolete database know that you won't have to divert to a third and unchecked alternative if the weather goes down the toilet - like CB with hail parked over the first two.
Click to expand...

Or simply get assigned to a different route than you planned for, since per the AIM, enroute use of an expired database seems to require verifying the individual waypoints, not just the date of the chart. This is the part that makes using an expired database impractical in my view.

As for thowing the book at people for using an expired database after verification, I'll believe it when we start hearing of it actually happening, especially considering that it's a procedure that's blessed by the AIM.
 
Dr. O said:
Wait till you wind up with the bird in the trees and the FSDO finds you were in IMC with an obsolete GPS database (whether you used it or not).
Lets see - how many ways can we spell careless and reckless?
They can (and do) yank ATP ratings and pull 135 certificates and fail check rides for mere typos in the paper work.
They yanked Hoover's ticket just because an inspector had hurt feelings.
And you think you are gonna let you skate by with an obsolete IFR database in IMC conditions just because you "checked"?
How do you prove you checked?
How do you 'correct' your geo referenced plate to show that the IAF has moved?
How does the obsolete database know that you won't have to divert to a third and unchecked alternative if the weather goes down the toilet - like CB with hail parked over the first two.

Don't take me wrong - I am 100% for the pilot and against the heavy hand of big brother. But it is sheet-for-brains thinking that you can launch into IMC with expired charts/plates just because you checked. And it does not matter that some MFD manufacturer puts it in the manual that you can, because the inspector will laugh as he issues an emergency revocation of your certificate.

Come on guys - it is pilots with wishful thinking and sloppy flying that keeps the FAA coming down on the backs of the rest of us.
Click to expand...

If you hit a tree on an instrument approach in an airworthy airplane, an Inspector could just violate you for 91.175 (a) and (b), then the reckless op, and call it a day.
 
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Dr.O must have had his feelings hurt by some uncaring inspector. Or heard too many stories about them.
Give him a hug. :)
 
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