IFR when I can't meet SID/ODP climb or MEA?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by RocktheWings, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. RocktheWings

    RocktheWings Filing Flight Plan

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    Being a low lander, curious how this works past the obvious answer of, no go.

    Say I'm departing some airport in CO, like Aspen KASE, and I'm unable to accept any of the SID's because the climb gradients are all higher than what I can safely do. I know as a part 91 pilot I can deny the SID, but what would happen at that point? Say I was a moronic pilot who just wanted to blast off, and said "na can't accept, can't do climb gradient", would ATC tell me to sit this one out, or would they give me some sort of vector to piece me through the terrain.

    Or again, along the same lines, say I'm able to do the Cozy 1 departure at KASE because the climb gradient only goes to 10,000, but the end of it dumps me out on an airway with 14,000ft MEA, and now my aircraft can't do that. What does the dummy pilot do at that point?

    I'm sure these are silly questions, but curious how a flight like this would be approached normally, or sorted out in the system by someone not really thinking.
     
  2. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Wait for VFR weather.
     
  3. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    If you cannot meet the climb gradients your best alternative is to spiral climb in VMC over the airport until you are at or above obstacle clearance height, BPOC.

    In the mountains don't count on ATC to be able to help you as you fly the canyons in IMC trying to pick your way through using your ForeFlight syn viz, or something equally crazy. :hairraise: If you are down low ATC probably can't see you on radar, and may not be able to communicate with you either. So if you are foolish enough to take off into the murk without the ability to meet the SID procedures assume you are on your own until you are high enough for ATC to maintain both radar and voice contact.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  4. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I have heard such instructions as, "Can you maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance during the climb to X000'?".
    (If you answer yes, how would you safely do that in imc?)

    Failing that, a vfr departure is the only way I know of.
     
  5. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The ODP for Aspen involves a climb to 16,000 before proceeding on course. Can you do that? If not, no go unless VMC.
     
  6. Tools

    Tools Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ve not been able to make published minimums in 121 ops, they simply accommodated me with vectors.

    Simply talked to them on clearance delivery. Wasn’t a big deal. They said they might have to hold us until they had a break in traffic so we didn’t mess up EVERYTHING in the sky.

    Tools
     
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  7. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    In the western mountains?
     
  8. Tools

    Tools Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Can’t remember where, but somewhere that had a bunch of restrictions.

    And I’ve had times where I wasn’t gonna make restrictions on the fly, again, just vectors to accommodate.

    Tools
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Very possibly ATC-required rather than obstacle climb requirements.
     
  10. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Curious if it was where there is a DVA. If no diverse vector area, then how can they vector you during the climb (#1) and what if you don't even meet the diverse departure climb gradient of 200 ft per mi (#2)?
     
  11. Jeff767

    Jeff767 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you are doing 121 ops a takeoff in terrain requires a full engineering analysis of any departure you might use. 121 Carriers often have special departure procedures especially in the event of a engine out. I suspect you were on SIDS that had climb gradients related to ATC traffic flows. They can waive that. They can’t waive terrain.
     
  12. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    File IFR from the first fix, on your desired route of flight, where you can maintain at least the minimum IFR altitude. Depart VFR, with VFR advisories, then pickup the IFR when you reach minimum IFR altitudes.
     
  13. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Whatever you deem you need to do, just coordinate w/ATC. No VCOA at KASE, so you might ask to circle VFR in a safe place until you reach MEA:

    AIM 5-5-14
    Instrument Departures
    1. Pilot.
      1. Prior to departure considers the type of terrain and other obstructions on or in the vicinity of the departure airport.
      2. Determines if obstruction avoidance can be maintained visually or that the departure procedure should be followed.
      3. Determines whether an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) and/or DP is available for obstruction avoidance. One option may be a Visual Climb Over Airport (VCOA). Pilots must advise ATC as early as possible of the intent to fly the VCOA prior to departure.
      4. At airports where IAPs have not been published, hence no published departure procedure, determines what action will be necessary and takes such action that will assure a safe departure.
    Although KASE has published procedures, you can't meet them. I'd think #4 would then apply to you.
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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  15. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    BPOC: before proceeding on course.
    That phrase shows up often in the SIDs for the mountain airports out west here so the acronym gets used a lot; maybe its just a regional thing? Should have just spelled it out. Apologies.
     
  16. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Aw, Don't Worry About It Happens All The TIme
     
  17. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    By careful planning, using a chart that shows terrain and obstructions. There are probably places where it wouldn't be possible to do this and maintain an adequate safety margin. Aspen may be one of them, but I haven't studied the chart in detail.

    Icing might be an issue.
     
  18. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I've never seen it before, but all my mountain flying has been VFR/VMC. We have no terrain SIDs here.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There are times when aircraft can be vectored below the MVA. It's not a substitute for a Departure Procedure, but if on one, they can start vectoring below the MVA as follows if you are in controlled airspace.

    5−6−3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM ALTITUDE
    a. Except in en route automated environments in areas where more than 3 miles separation minima is required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum altitude for IFR operations if separation from prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is applied in accordance with the following:
    1. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
    2. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.
    REFERENCE−
    P/CG Term − Obstacle. P/CG Term − Obstruction. P/CG Term − Prominent Obstacle.
    b. At those locations where diverse vector areas (DVA) have been established, radar facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA within the DVA described in facility directives.
    REFERENCE−
    FAA Order JO 7210.3, Para 3−8−5, Establishing Diverse Vector Area/s (DVA).
    Vectoring
     
  20. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Does that apply, though, where the departing aircraft has less than 200'/nm capability? And it raises the question about just how complete are the charted obstacles on the radar map? Can a vector to miss the charted obstacle still impact a lower but uncharted obstacle or high terrain?
     
  21. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ODPs and SIDs are very serious stuff IMO. I specifically look for them prior to any IMC departure. Don't leave home with out one if they are published.
     
  22. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Like I said, it’s not a substitute for a departure procedure, just something that allows vectoring below the MVA after you’ve departed. I’ve worked Radar Approach at 3 different places and only one of them had ‘prominent obstructions’ displayed on the Video Map. I don’t know the exact criteria for displaying them but I’m sure displaying one without also displaying higher ones nearby would be a no no.
     
  23. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Line Up and Wait

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  24. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    Well, it isn't the higher ones I'd be concerned with it's the lower ones my climb gradient won't clear if I'm vectored off my pre-planned route that will clear the obstructions.
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. Prominent obstruction probably means literally that. Obstruction. Like a tower. Not the high spot of rising terrain.