IFR training long xcountry question

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by MacFlier, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm planning my long xcountry under IFR rules for early next year.
    Have you guys done that one with your CFI or an IR safety pilot that can file IFR for you?
     
  2. Hang 4

    Hang 4 Line Up and Wait

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    Has to be with a CFII. See below from the FAA;

    (ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

    (A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

    (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

    (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
     
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  3. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks! That settles it then. And we'll make an approach to a 3rd airport it seems like.
     
  4. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

    (A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

    (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

    (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

    Keep in mind this XC does not have to be flown in IMC. It is winter and icing will likely limit you to VMC in the northern regions unless you wait on the right day.
     
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  5. MrAnderson

    MrAnderson Pre-Flight

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    make Sure it’s 3 DIFFERENT kinds of approaches. I did this once where we shot two RNAV’s and it doesn’t count.
     
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  6. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Good point!
     
  7. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When I did mine years ago, flying out of virginia.... I asked my CFII if he'd prefer to go North or South.....
    being from Sweden, he of course voted South...so we picked something fun neither of us had done, and did an over night trip to Orlando/Disney.
    Good times.
     
  8. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm planning something less fancy I think: fly from north texas to an airport in the OKC Class C, have dinner and fly back after dark.
    I thought it would be interesting to fly under hood at night time.
     
  9. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    Shouldn't your CFII have known this?
     
  10. MrAnderson

    MrAnderson Pre-Flight

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    Probably, but in his defense there are not many instrument students in our area and I’m sure the experience requirements were not on the top of his list early in my training. We made plenty of other flights that met the requirements before it was all over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
  11. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    Just FYI in case you plan on possibly getting your commercial certificate later....

    You can plan a 300NM/250NM straight line distance flight that would satisfy both your instrument XC and commercial XC 61.129(a)(4)(i) if your CFII is willing to endorse/document in your logbook that the flight satisfied 61.127(b)(1) and 61.129(a)(4)(i) and your instrument XC requirements. Could save you some $$ in the future.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think you mean 61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv). (a)(4) is the commercial solo cross country.

    Even if you choose to do the commercial solo requirements with an instructor on board, it is not dual and not loggable as a training received flight. The IFR cross country, OTOH, us a training ("dual") flight.
     
  13. MacFlier

    MacFlier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I thought about this, but was not sure the CPL XC needed to be a dual.
    Anyway, we finished the XC on the 23rd, shooting an ILS, VOR and Rnav approaches. Total mileage was 263nm, 4 hours tach. It was a really good experience, got rerouted, clearance ammendments. The only thing missing was actual IMC.
     
  14. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    No, I was referring to the 300NM XC....

    61.129(a)(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

    (i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As I said, that flight is not loggable as dual. 1st sentence if the third paragraph of the 2014 Kuhn Chief Counsel letter.

    And since it's not dual, it can't be used for the IR dual cross country.

    OTOH, combining the two commercial dual flights with the IR cross country is feasible, although some would I guess argue that the "areas of operation" are different enough that it shouldn't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  16. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    Interesting OCC Kuhn (2014) interpretation. In the case of the OP, the OP would be would be receiving instrument flight training on that particular flight and the OP would be performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board. So, I'm not sure the scenario described in the interp is the same as the OP's scenario would be on that flight, but I'm sure you'll disagree. Thanks for the info though.
     
  17. AlleyCat67

    AlleyCat67 Pre-Flight

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    Resurrecting this thread to ask a related question...

    My instructor and I have a disagreement, and I want to make sure my interpretation is correct. For XC PIC requirements, 61.65 states the applicant must have logged:

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane;

    My instructor interprets this to mean that I'm required to have 10 hours of simulated IFR cross-country (some of which can occur through the 250 NM XC requirement). My interpretation is that the 50 hours refers to any PIC time (VFR or simulated IFR), and the 10 hours just refers to time logged in an airplane (as opposed to helicopter, airship, etc).

    My 250 NM XC will take about 3 hours, and I'd just a soon not have to fly an additional 7 hours XC under the hood if 91.65 doesn't require it.
     
  18. mcmanigle

    mcmanigle Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You are correct. 40 hours (simulated or real) IMC, and 50 hours x-country PIC; those two requirements don't overlap. (But any given flight could count for both.)
     
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  19. Craigd31

    Craigd31 Pre-Flight

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    Agree w above. That means that 40 hours of the xc pic could have been in something like a helicopter but at least 10 hours need to be in an airplane.
     
  20. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    When I qualify a Part 61 applicant for an IRA (Instrument Rating - Airplane) practical test, I look for 50 hours of cross-country PIC, 10 of which must have been in airplanes. (I have yet to have an applicant that didn't have all of it in airplanes.)

    There is no requirement for those 50 hours to be flown VFR, or IFR, or in simulated/actual IMC. Just 50 hours PIC cross-country flight time.
     
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