IFR Training in Tail Dragger, does CFI-I need tail endorsement?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by texasclouds, Dec 7, 2018 at 8:46 AM.

  1. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If I purchase a Maule MX7 that is IFR rated, and then start IFR training...will my CFI-I need to have tail endorsement? What about my safety pilot during simulated instrument?

    I saw this one on trade-a-plane:

    maule.JPG maule2.JPG
     
  2. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Regardless of the FAR, would you actually pay a CFII, or let someone pic who wasn’t tailwheel??
     
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  3. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Safety pilot just says category/class.

    The CFII, however, is teaching you how to takeoff into IMC and land out of approaches, so he/she needs the endorsement.
     
  4. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Good point...really good point.
     
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  5. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    I've wondered about this before. If the student is PIC, why would the instructor need a tailwheel endorsement? Is a tailwheel endorsement also needed to give an IPC?
     
  6. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

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    I don’t honk student can log PIC while receiving dual for a rating they don’t have. Certainly can’t in IMC
     
  7. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    I'm assuming the instrument student has a private certificate or higher with a tailwheel endorsement.
     
  8. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    if the student is PPL, he will get PIC time when receiving dual IR training, even in actuals.

    https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...ject-report-logging-pilot-in-command-pic-time

    "A pilot, whether acting as PIC or not, may log PIC time anytime in which he/she is sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he/she is rated (FAR 61.51). This is true regardless of weather conditions, whether VFR or IFR, simulated or actual."
     
  9. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 Pattern Altitude

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    "no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and..."

    It's all in 14 CFR 61.31 and I think an instructor is going to find themselves acting at PIC at some point giving instrument training. If the instructor doesn't care, then I wouldn't want that instructor in the cockpit.
     
  10. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I understand that they do need the endorsement.

    That’s almost exactly the setup I got my rating in, and then proceeded to get it wet for 5-6 years. I was doing it with a pre-G400/500 Garmin navigator (G155?) but otherwise about identical.

    Great for training with some real utility afterwards. It will carry 4 with bags if you don’t use the LR tanks 115knots plus/minus 2kts assuming its a MX7-180a

    Years ago before my IR, I remember landing at Gainseville due to weather. As I was checking out my options, another Maule pulled up. He sat down in the lounge while the family took a break, he checked the weather, carefully folded up his maps arranged his pencils and plates, then went out and flew north last seen climbing through a thick cloud layer.

    I decided to takeoff and climb above the deck before proceeding to Charlotte where post frontal VFR conditions prevailed. I couldn’t find a big enough hole and was uptight about flying 100s of miles above a solid deck so I descended underneath and flew for too many hours at a bumpy 2500’.

    Arrived in Charlotte exhausted with high gusty cross winds and a down sloping runway (Lake Norman) where I made the hairiest landing I’ve ever made in a plane. All 4 of us kissed the ground on arrival.

    They flew with me again... and I smile thinking of it. I loved that Maule!


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  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    So long as the CFI is not acting as PIC, nothing in Part 61 indicates a CFI requires a tailwheel, HP or complex endorsement (there was a blurb in the old orphaned FAQ which said the CFI has to be endorsed, but there was more than one error i that document). A few problems, though.
    1. As already mentioned, at some point during instrument training, a CFII will need to be PIC. Even if they never go into actual and avoid filing IFR most f the time, the dual cross country requires filing IFR.
    2. The NTSB has a history of holding CFIs to the same standard of responsibility as the PIC. In case of a mishap, I'm not sure I want to be the CFI who has to answer, "what made you think you were really qualified to teach in this airplane?"
    Edit: Safety pilot? No. Only category and class required. But the logging rule changes. No PIC for the safety pilot. If she wants to log something, it's SIC.
     
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  12. texasclouds

    texasclouds Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Bill, its the 160 HP version.
     
  13. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Line Up and Wait

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    You are right!! When I recently restarted my instrument training... my instructor filled out my logbook. He didn’t write in any PIC for me. I asked about it a few lesson later and he said that he didn’t Think I could. I let it go as it didn’t matter for amount of hours I had. Probably each flight in beginning would be 0.1 that I wasn’t at controls. My be handy to log those as I was sole manipulator of controls.
     
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  14. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The question is whether the CFI ever becomes PIC. For most of the training, it's not necessary, EXCEPT for the cross-country. That MUST be done under IFR. Since the student can not operate under IFR as PIC, the instructor must. Since the instructor is now PIC, he needs to meet 61.31 (endorsed or grandfathered).

    Ooops... I see Midlife already said this. I agree (obviously).
     
  15. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    This is true, as long as you are rated in category and class on that private or higher certificate. It’s a minor nit to pick but it should be noted that there is some training after the private that may not be logged as PIC.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    The rules of logging flight time, although 90% settled for decades*, is a continual source of confusion. I've seen instructors insulted over it ("what else don't they know?"), but I suspect it's the very best instructors - who don't hang out online where it has been discussed ad nauseum - who have the most difficulty with it.

    [*e.g. official interpretations specifically saying private pilot without the instrument rating may log PIC in actual go back to at least 1977]
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 2:24 AM
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  17. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Not much different... just a bit less utility but fine.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  18. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What you can log as PIC time has nothing to do with the question asked.
     
  19. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I know you are correct, but imo that’s crazy crap to have two different definitions of PIC.
     
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  20. IK04

    IK04 Pre-Flight

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    Here's the short answer: NO, unless he is acting as PIC.

    CFI's don't even need to have a current physical...
     
  21. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Absolutely incorrect. Logging PIC and being PIC are two different things. Sole manipulator and rated and cat/class means you get to log it. Type of operation does not matter in this context.
     
  22. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Like? Tailwheel?
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Nope...you’re rated in category/class, you can log PIC.

    Multiengine instruction can’t be logged PIC if you’re not multi rated. Same with Seaplane, since those are “classes”.

    Of course, if you change categories...glider, rotorcraft, etc., you’re not rated for category and can’t log PIC.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 5:23 PM
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  24. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

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    I have some experience with this. I'm currently doing instrument training in my Skywagon and it took me quite some time to find a CFII that I liked for this. There are plenty of CFII's that have ~5-10 hours in citabrias, but they're just not qualified to fly my plane. I wanted a CFII that really knew how to fly a 180. Eventually I found a CFII and she has over 1000 hours tailwheel, aerobatic experience 5000TT and luckily she just likes teaching and is a great instructor. I'd recommend you hunt around for a II that can fly your airplane well. It'll be well worth it.

    Also - don't buy a Maule... buy a 180 :).
     
  25. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Which training???? I'm thinking seaplane or rotorwing or even glider but none of those require a private cert as a requisite for the training.
     
  26. IK04

    IK04 Pre-Flight

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    Who thought up this tailwheel endorsement anyway? Somebody decided there was a trend of tailwheel airplane mishaps because pilots were never taught to fly properly and couldn't handle a "real" airplane?
     
  27. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    No, they don’t, but the question is about logging PIC while receiving instruction, which assumes Private or higher certification.
     
  28. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    'cause you know all the double I's don't bother with a tailwheel endorsement along the way.


    HUH?!? WHAT? Do they?
     
  29. IK04

    IK04 Pre-Flight

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    That's me, a CFII in 1981 in Bethel, AK flying my favorite airplane!

    <-----------------
     
  30. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If the student is under the hood, the CFI / safety pilot is a required crew member and needs a medical.
     
  31. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yup..
     
  32. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    You sure about that?

    I know a very active by the book CFII who gives instrument instruction all the time under basic med. I agree with safety pilot needing a medical but not a CFII giving instruction.
     
  33. IK04

    IK04 Pre-Flight

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    OK, new answer: NO, unless he is acting as PIC or required crew member.
     
  34. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist

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    @Walboy - I should have included basic med. The post I had quoted said the CFI did not need a physical. I was pointing out that the CFI can’t just let thier medical expire and have the pilot under the hood. I looked closely at this situation about 15 years ago when the CFII I wanted to use did not have his medical at the time.
     
  35. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    No Problem. We come here to learn and stay informed. It's difficult to keep up with some of the minutiae.
     
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