IFR + Full stop landings

[AustinPilot]

I'm planning to go up and regain my night currency soon. Of course as part of that I need to make some full-stop landings. I may do some of them locally at an uncontrolled field but I would also like to fly IFR to a towered airport and shoot a precision approach for practice.

If you are going to full-stop, taxi back, and take right off again do you usually file separate flight plans for each takeoff/landing leg? Seems like you might have to since tower generally closes your IFR flight plan when you land. Wasn't sure if maybe there are any controller accommodations for that sort of scenario.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Just curious. If the purpose is to get night current, why would you need to be on an IFR flight plan?

Never mind. Helps to read the whole post.

 

[James331]

If it's for practice you sure you want to file?

 

[AustinPilot]

I don't need to be on an IFR flight plan, just want to take the opportunity to keep the skills sharp and keep an extra margin of safety with regards to obstruction clearance.

 

[Ravioli]

If you file, put IFR Training in the comments. When you're with approach they MAY ask how your approach will terminate. If they do, say you'll do a stop and go and then another approach to xyz...

They'll probably give you a modified missed procedure and tell you to come back to them.

When you call up tower tell them N1234x is on the ILS to XX, Stop and Go.

Full stop for night currency doesn't require taxi back... so two stop and goes and then a landing equals 3.

 

[James331]

I don't need to be on an IFR flight plan, just want to take the opportunity to keep the skills sharp and keep an extra margin of safety with regards to obstruction clearance.

You can get 95% of the experience VFR with flight following and requesting the approach when needed.

When we do our checkrides every 6 months at work, our check airman prefers VFR and 9 time out of 10 we don't even talk to departure, it allows us to get much more done with less hassle. YMMV

All that said, to,do what you want to do, I'd wager staying VFR would be the best bet, you could even bring a saftey pilot friend and have him handle the comms and play controller and give you vectors, etc.

 

[flyingron]

I'd probably not file. I'd call up the approach control (or whoever handles the approaches for the field) and tell them I'd like to do a bunch of approaches to full stops. Most approach controls (unless really busy) won't have any problem accomodating you. When tower hands you off they'll likely ask "Which approach do you want this time?"

 

[roncachamp]

I'm planning to go up and regain my night currency soon. Of course as part of that I need to make some full-stop landings. I may do some of them locally at an uncontrolled field but I would also like to fly IFR to a towered airport and shoot a precision approach for practice.

If you are going to full-stop, taxi back, and take right off again do you usually file separate flight plans for each takeoff/landing leg? Seems like you might have to since tower generally closes your IFR flight plan when you land. Wasn't sure if maybe there are any controller accommodations for that sort of scenario.

When you arrive IFR at a towered destination airport the tower doesn't take any action to close your flight plan. It's closed because they know you've arrived. If you want to to some pattern work at an intermediate stop on your IFR flight just let center or approach know so that they can add the delay at that point. You can cancel IFR, do your pattern work, then pick up the IFR clearance again when you're through. Or you can just file two separate flight plans.

 

[AustinPilot]

Thanks all for the advice, sounds like there are multiple good ways to handle it.

 

[Shawn]

Ask for multiple "VFR practice approaches". You will get the same ATC services...minus required separation services...without having to file IFR.

 

[roncachamp]

Ask for multiple "VFR practice approaches". You will get the same ATC services...minus required separation services...without having to file IFR.

You should always get required separation services. Where possible, ATC provides separation services to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches. See AIM 4−3−21. Practice Instrument Approaches.

 

[Clark1961]

You should always get required separation services. Where possible, ATC provides separation services to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches. See AIM 4−3−21. Practice Instrument Approaches.

It must not be possible much around here 'cause I thought: practice-approach-approved-no-separation-services-provided was all one word for the ATC folks.

OTOH, they were very good about calling traffic when we are IMC and can't see the traffic...I know, I know, they work in a dark room and have to call the traffic by rule but it just seems backwards...

 

[brcase]

It must not be possible much around here 'cause I thought: practice-approach-approved-no-separation-services-provided was all one word for the ATC folks.

OTOH, they were very good about calling traffic when we are IMC and can't see the traffic...I know, I know, they work in a dark room and have to call the traffic by rule but it just seems backwards...

The way they say it around here is practice-approach-approved, maintain VFR.
It just means they will be using VFR separtion standards as opposed to IFR standards for you, They expect you or your safety pilot to be looking out the window.

Brian

 

[jordane93]

I'd probably not file. I'd call up the approach control (or whoever handles the approaches for the field) and tell them I'd like to do a bunch of approaches to full stops. Most approach controls (unless really busy) won't have any problem accomodating you. When tower hands you off they'll likely ask "Which approach do you want this time?"

I'd do this as well.

 

[azure]

You should always get required separation services. Where possible, ATC provides separation services to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches. See AIM 4−3−21. Practice Instrument Approaches.

More blatant weasel words were never spoken. Of course, most of us know of places where it is not done, and therefore it is not possible everywhere.

"Practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

 

[midlifeflyer]

It must not be possible much around here 'cause I thought: practice-approach-approved-no-separation-services-provided was all one word for the ATC folks.

"Around there" the change from "cleared for the approach" to "practice approach approved" is a relatively recent change, I think no more than 2-3 years before I moved away.

 

[midlifeflyer]

More blatant weasel words were never spoken. Of course, most of us know of places where it is not done, and therefore it is not possible everywhere.

"Practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

There is definitely a variety. When I moved to the Raleigh area, I went to a seminar put together by ATC discussing local procedures (a lot about how and when they have you navigate the Class C depending on traffic flow).

A question i asked was whether they used "practice approach approved" language with which I had become familiar in the Denver area. They looked at me like I had three heads - why in heaven's name wouldn't they want to provide separation services!!?? They felt it benefited them as well as the pilots.

 

[roncachamp]

The way they say it around here is practice-approach-approved, maintain VFR.

The book phraseology is "Belchfire 34A, maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

It just means they will be using VFR separtion standards as opposed to IFR standards for you, They expect you or your safety pilot to be looking out the window.

It means they will be providing no separation. They expect you or your safety pilot to be looking out the window VFR or IFR, cleared for an approach or not.

 

[flyingron]

Of course, if you're in VMC in most US airspace, if it's VMC you better be looking out for traffic even if you are getting IFR services.

 

[azure]

There is definitely a variety. When I moved to the Raleigh area, I went to a seminar put together by ATC discussing local procedures (a lot about how and when they have you navigate the Class C depending on traffic flow).

A question i asked was whether they used "practice approach approved" language with which I had become familiar in the Denver area. They looked at me like I had three heads - why in heaven's name wouldn't they want to provide separation services!!?? They felt it benefited them as well as the pilots.

Yes, definitely a variety, and not just on a regional basis but even within a fairly small area. "No separation services provided" is what you can expect to hear if you want to shoot the ILS 4 at PHN with Selfridge Approach. But less than 30 miles away, Detroit Approach will straight out clear you for the RNAV 9 into VLL, and I believe they do the same at most other untowered fields in their airspace (1D2 Mettetal and Y47 come to mind, not sure about Grosse Ile and Romeo).

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yes, definitely a variety, and not just on a regional basis but even within a fairly small area.

I'm not surprised. Given the existence of TRACON sectors of various busy-ness, I can see some sectors wanting to provide separation services and others not.