IFR Checkride in a TAA

[Leo Langston]

What should one expect a DPE to fail during an IFR checkride in a TAA aircraft? My plane has dual Aspen Pro Max displays, a Garmin 650xi, 375, 255, PS Eng 450B and a CGR-30P engine monitor plus a STEC 55x AP. If they failed both Aspens I would try to use my iPad or iPhone. I have dual GPS and navcoms and a handheld Icom radio that might work in a pinch. There is only the single engine monitor gauge so if that goes no engine instruments. The Aspens both have backup batteries that should last for 30 min if the alternator and main battery failed. If the PFD fails I can revert the MFD into a PFD. I can’t really do partial panel unless they try to cover just the AI on the PFD but leave the AS and Alt tapes and the HSI alone. I have to be able to hand fly without the AP so no problem if it fails. So what sort of failure scenarios should I practice or at least be ready to discuss with the DPE on a checkride? How much inner working knowledge of the Aspens and their ADHRS am I expected to know. Will I get questioned on steam gauge operations if my plane has none?

Leo

 

[Clip4]

You really think the examiner will simulate an emergency by failing the CGR-30P engine monitor?

The instrument airplane ACS Area of Operation VII - Emergency Operations will answer that question.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It may vary a bit, but the most likely will be disabling the Aspen PFD, with you flying the second Aspen in reversionary mode.since DPEs tend not to turn breakers off, they will more likely cover it or darken it, so be prepared to push your MFD into reversionary mode.

There may be some DPEs who know the ins and outs of a system well enough to be comfortable doing more than that, but Reversionary mode has been the staple for the “Approach with Loss of Primary Flight Instrument Indicators” task since the early days of the G1000.

 

[Chris Mixon]

I flew my check ride with my 3 Aspen Pro Max setup. For my partial panel, he had me dim out my primary and then revert to my backup. No problem there at all. Just make sure you know how to go to manual brightness and dim it out.

What was more important was being able to explain how the EBB and the internal batteries function and knowing what would be lost if I had to revert to the secondary. In my case, I don't have an A/B switch for my autopilot, so GPSS roll steering only works from the primary control head, meaning I had to hand-fly the approach.

He also spent some time making heading changes based on 3 degrees per second, rather than trying to use a magnetic compass and power settings for level flight, descent, and climb. I also have a Sentry and Foreflight, so we discussed using the AHARS in the Sentry as a backup of last resort. Was looking to see if I understood that this was not an ideal situation and truly a "last resort". I was also asked if I had ever practiced using it with a safety pilot. ( I hadn't, but that got put on the agenda, eye-opening on how much harder it was."

 

[MauleSkinner]

Note that the ACS says “with reference to backup or partial panel instrumentation or navigation display…”

It could be as simple as failing Nav 1 for a Localizer approach.

 

[Salty]

My DPE put stickies all over all the glass except the GPS and I flew the approach with my iPad and the CDI built into the GPS.

 

[Leo Langston]

My PFD has a separate On/OFF switch. The MFD is on the main Avionics switch that has all the other radios. The AP has a separate switch. The engine monitor is on the main master battery switch. So I assume a DPE could just turn off the PFD and I would revert to the MFD which becomes a full functional PFD. I will have to double check if it will control the AP or not. I haven’t tried that combo as I don’t really use the AP in my training flights. I am probably overthinking it but I am curious as to what to expect a DPE to throw at me.
Also as a 73 yr old pilot trying to get the instrument rating so I can maximize the use of my Navion while I am still able to fly ( not looking for a long term pilot career) just how much of the regs and procedure minutia do I really need to know (memorize?) I will never be flying in class A airspace, never flying 250kts. Basically trying to not have to scud run under 1000ft ceilings when I want to fly somewhere.

Thanks
Leo

 

[Noah Lorang]

I would expect simulated loss of PFD, but anything is fair game. When I took my instrument ride (dual G3X screens + G5), the examiner intended to turn the brightness down on just the PFD but actually turned it down on both PFD and MFD (I think he's used to a G1000 where the brightness controls are independent), so I flew the approach using just the G5 and the GPS.

Also as a 73 yr old pilot trying to get the instrument rating so I can maximize the use of my Navion while I am still able to fly ( not looking for a long term pilot career) just how much of the regs and procedure minutia do I really need to know (memorize?) I will never be flying in class A airspace, never flying 250kts. Basically trying to not have to scud run under 1000ft ceilings when I want to fly somewhere.

The rating is to let you fly anything (that doesn't require a type rating), including into class A and over 250 knots, so you do need to know the parts of the material you don't expect to use (similarly, you need to be able to fly to minimums and circle to land, even if you only intend to fly straight-in approaches in MVFR conditions). Anything in the ACS is fair game, though an examiner is going to tailor the oral and flight to the aircraft you're bringing to the checkride.

 

[Dixiebluesky]

I would just ask a couple days before hand, most will tell you. It is best if you know how to disable what he wants to disable and then show how it is done before you are in the air. I know of a couple that when they want to fail the equipment want you to either watch them as they do it or tell them step by step what to do. Apparently there was a breaker pull a few years ago that went kind of bad.

 

[Kitch]

On my instrument ride he had me dim the PFD and hand fly an approach in reversionary mode on the G1000. Last I knew the FAA issued guidance to all DPE's frowning on the pulling of circuit breakers in flight.

 

[Mikey52]

And if you are not very proficient on using the autopilot, I've seen some instructors INOP the autopilot for check rides.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And if you are not very proficient on using the autopilot, I've seen some instructors INOP the autopilot for check rides.

Gee, I can't imagine why pilots functionally incompetent to fly in the IFR system pass checkrides.

On the other hand, it makes me very happy that I choose certain tasks on IPcs.

 

[bflynn]

If they failed both Aspens I would try to use my iPad or iPhone.

If they fail both Aspens, you should fall back to your standby instruments. It doesn't sound like they will. An iPad is for situational awareness only. Yes, foreflight is as good as the Aspen for information, but it's not an official source of information.

Consider a situation of full electrical system failure and you can't get on the ground within the time frame of the backup batteries - or an electrical spike that fries everything. Yes, you can't even get the odds on it to place a bet in Vegas, but everything possible will eventually happen. How would you handle that?

 

[Salty]

If they fail both Aspens, you should fall back to your standby instruments. It doesn't sound like they will. An iPad is for situational awareness only. Yes, foreflight is as good as the Aspen for information, but it's not an official source of information.

Consider a situation of full electrical system failure and you can't get on the ground within the time frame of the backup batteries - or an electrical spike that fries everything. Yes, you can't even get the odds on it to place a bet in Vegas, but everything possible will eventually happen. How would you handle that?

My DPE failed it all and asked, now what are you going to do? I said, well, if I can't get to VMC conditions, I'm going to use my iPad or die. He said "yup, do it" and I flew the approach with the iPad. It was a non precision approach. I was rather surprised as it made it pretty easy since he couldn't tell with instrumentation if I'd busted or not.

 

[Leo Langston]

That would be my scenario since I hace no backup instruments. Just the two Aspen Pro Maxs, no other electric or vacuum gyro instrumentation. If they fail the alternator then I got main battery and backup Aspen batteries to get on the ground ASAP. Declare emergency, ask for vectors to nearest airport thats VFR or has decent ceilings and visibility and land. Bring up the GP instrument screen and use that for last ditch backup.

 

[Salty]

That would be my scenario since I hace no backup instruments. Just the two Aspen Pro Maxs, no other electric or vacuum gyro instrumentation. If they fail the alternator then I got main battery and backup Aspen batteries to get on the ground ASAP. Declare emergency, ask for vectors to nearest airport thats VFR or has decent ceilings and visibility and land. Bring up the GP instrument screen and use that for last ditch backup.

In my case I still had a backup AI and altimeter, so I was only using the iPad for lateral guidance.

 

[Ghery]

Gee, I can't imagine why pilots functionally incompetent to fly in the IFR system pass checkrides.

On the other hand, it makes me very happy that I choose certain tasks on IPcs.

When I took my IR ride the plane (heck, all the planes in the club except for the 182) didn't have autopilots, so this wasn't a problem. And if I had used the club's 182 it wouldn't have been a problem, as well. I made sure that piece of garbage was turned off before I started the engine and left it what way. It couldn't track a VOR to save your life. Kept hunting and hunting.

 

[JVerb]

mine had me dim the primary (G3x) and fly off the secondary (G5). It's almost laughable on a TAA when there's two EFD's that both could be a Primary if you wanted them to. I wouldn't worry about it too much; if you've practiced with both, then it doesn't really matter what they fail. All the info you need is still there.

My AP Alt Hold was INOP, so I verbalized that when we started that I would use it only for to assist on the DME-Arc arc section, and hold if we had to make multiple laps to get set up for something, but that I couldn't do a coupled approach. She was good with that.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Ultimately it shouldn’t matter what they fail on the checkride. You should be proficient in your backup systems.

 

[Steamflyer]

If they fail both Aspens, you should fall back to your standby instruments. It doesn't sound like they will. An iPad is for situational awareness only. Yes, foreflight is as good as the Aspen for information, but it's not an official source of information.

Consider a situation of full electrical system failure and you can't get on the ground within the time frame of the backup batteries - or an electrical spike that fries everything. Yes, you can't even get the odds on it to place a bet in Vegas, but everything possible will eventually happen. How would you handle that?

You won’t be able to fly in the clag with an iPad or iPhone. The refresh rate even with an external gizmo like a sentry is too slow IMHO. Better off with needle ball airspeed. If proficient you should be able to do holds in IMC with just those. At least that’s my favorite litmus test.

You don’t need as dire a situation as suggested here to be concerned. Considered just an alternator failure in the soup with widespread IMC. You don’t have long to divert and shoot an approach. The nav radios don’t have batteries recall.

 

[flyingron]

Once they start failing things, you're no longer in the "certificated" regime. Certification for IFR flight reqiures gyros and every partial-panel exercise nixes these. I'll use what ever I've got on board to include apps on my personal cell phone if it helps me get down safely.

 

[MackMooney]

If i remember correctly, my dpe, failed the gps(covered it with paper) while on an ils approach, then asked what i'd do as i no longer had dme. my response was to point at the real dme under the gps and finished the approach.

the dpe may have failed one of the g5's also but that is really a non event

the dpe also noted how i DIDN"t try using the ipad during the ride, the comment was to use EVERY resource in the plane.

 

[flyingron]

After covering my AI and HSI, the DPE on my instrument ride (over ten years ago), asked if my autopilot still worked without vacuum. It does, I say, so he suggests I use it. I also pointed out that the HSI didn't need vacuum either.

During my training, I came out of a "put your head down" unusual attitude drill to find the altimeter and VSI covered up. That's weird, I think, but what the hell. I recover and hold altitude the best I can. The instructor then confessed he'd stuck the no-peekies on the wrong instruments.

 

[Clip4]

Note that the ACS says “with reference to backup or partial panel instrumentation or navigation display…”

It could be as simple as failing Nav 1 for a Localizer approach.

Actually the Objective in the ACS says an approach solely reference to instruments with the loss of primary flight control instruments.

Nav 1 isn’t a primary flight control instrument.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Actually the Objective in the ACS says an approach solely reference to instruments with the loss of primary flight control instruments.

I’m not seeing that…what page is it on?

Edit: ok, I’m seeing it now. Interesting that they have two different requirements in the ACS.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You won’t be able to fly in the clag with an iPad or iPhone. The refresh rate even with an external gizmo like a sentry is too slow IMHO. Better off with needle ball airspeed. If proficient you should be able to do holds in IMC with just those. At least that’s my favorite litmus test.

You don’t need as dire a situation as suggested here to be concerned. Considered just an alternator failure in the soup with widespread IMC. You don’t have long to divert and shoot an approach. The nav radios don’t have batteries recall.

Sorry, I agree only in part. I was doing partial panel exercises with a GPSMap handheld before EFBs existed and I would use my EFB long before I would rely on a swinging compass or my not-so-great ability to count degrees and divide by three while looking at a clock. At best the, compass, once it settles would be a “performance” instrument, providing confirmation.

“Too slow?” Rule #1 for partial panel is “No sudden moves.” Slow things down. Take your time.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m not seeing that…what page is it on?

Edit: ok, I’m seeing it now. Interesting that they have two different requirements in the ACS.

Now you got me wondering, what two different ones? I only see one “Task D. Approach with Loss of Primary Flight Instrument Indicators” applicable task.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Now you got me wondering, what two different ones?

The Objective @Clip4 copied from the Emergency Procedures section, and the verbiage I copied from the appendix about NPAs.

Obviously the examiner can combine maneuvers, so you’ll probably never see a simple NAV 1 failure on an instrument ride.

 

[midlifeflyer]

A

The Objective @Clip4 copied from the Emergency Procedures section, and the verbiage I copied from the appendix about NPAs.

Obviously the examiner can combine maneuvers, so you’ll probably never see a simple NAV 1 failure on an instrument ride.

Ah. The Appendix just mentions that one of the nonpreceion approaches must be partial panel. I don’t see it as creating a separate Task with a separate objective. So far, anyway, I have never heard of an Examiner (or CFII giving an IPC) who didn’t combine the “Loss of Primary” task with one of the 2 required nonprecision approaches and instead added an extra approach.

Nav1 failure, if at all, depends. Depending a bit on the airframe, for example, a G1000 associated NAV 1 with the PFD, so loss of PFD means loss of NAV 1. Otherwise, I’m thrilled to see a pilot who knows enough to use TRK on a GPS for directional control.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Ah. The Appendix just mentions that one of the nonpreceion approaches must be partial panel. I don’t see it as creating a separate Task with a separate objective. So far, anyway, I have never heard of an Examiner (or CFII giving an IPC) who didn’t combine the “Loss of Primary” task with one of the 2 required nonprecision approaches and instead added an extra approach.

Nav1 failure, if at all, depends. Depending a bit on the airframe, for example, a G1000 associated NAV 1 with the PFD, so loss of PFD means loss of NAV 1. Otherwise, I’m thrilled to see a pilot who knows enough to use TRK on a GPS for directional control.

At the ATP level, fail-down approaches aren’t a separate Emergency TASK. The guidance is solely in the Appendix, which reads the same as the Instrument ACS appendix.

I’m just thrilled to see an ATP who recognizes the loss of NAV1 and knows what to do about it.

 

[Steamflyer]

Sorry, I agree only in part. I was doing partial panel exercises with a GPSMap handheld before EFBs existed and I would use my EFB long before I would rely on a swinging compass or my not-so-great ability to count degrees and divide by three while looking at a clock. At best the, compass, once it settles would be a “performance” instrument, providing confirmation.

“Too slow?” Rule #1 for partial panel is “No sudden moves.” Slow things down. Take your time.

Agree on slow it down - number one best advice for almost anything done in an aircraft. I once played around (with safety pilot of course) with iPad based AHRS and concluded that is was not ideal at all for IMC flight, and that was in VFR with foggles. Could you use it to descend through a layer with ceilings below > 1000'? Probably. Anything lower than that, or anything in turbulence, and I'd rather use whatever is left of the real instruments.

Anyhow, I don't fly any aircraft in IMC that doesn't have two AIs on the pilot's side. At least the "keep the greasy side down" bit is easy. Have lost an AI twice and it was easy to determine that is was lying. Also, an old vacuum AI driven by a wet pump is very reliable; an EFIS one makes a nice backup.

Still, once you lose electrical in the soup, it's going to become an emergency quickly since NAV knows no backup in most GA airplanes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Agree on slow it down - number one best advice for almost anything done in an aircraft.

One of those stories that makes youfeel good is an instructor:

I had a client who transitioned to a much larger, faster airplane. We were doing some approaches for practice. Another aircraft was already in the HILPT, so we headed away to return when they were out of they way. They were slow and at a certain point, my client turned to me and said, "gee, we're getting pretty far away. I replied, "why don't you slow down?"

Fast forward about a month. My client sends me an email to tell me about how they got completely confused by a series of unexpected vectors while on a real approach in the clouds. Then they "heard" me say, "why don't you just slow down?" and everything fell into place.

 

[Steamflyer]

One of those stories that makes youfeel good is an instructor:

I had a client who transitioned to a much larger, faster airplane. We were doing some approaches for practice. Another aircraft was already in the HILPT, so we headed away to return when they were out of they way. They were slow and at a certain point, my client turned to me and said, "gee, we're getting pretty far away. I replied, "why don't you slow down?"

Fast forward about a month. My client sends me an email to tell me about how they got completely confused by a series of unexpected vectors while on a real approach in the clouds. Then they "heard" me say, "why don't you just slow down?" and everything fell into place.

Or as Ernst Gann put it (paraphrased) "The first thing you do in an emergency is light a cigarette." I.e., don't flail away and make it worse - stop and think and slow down.

 

[YakDrvr]

Or as Ernst Gann put it (paraphrased) "The first thing you do in an emergency is light a cigarette." I.e., don't flail away and make it worse - stop and think and slow down.

“Wind the clock” was the advice I always got in pilot training. Give your brain a chance to process what is happening. Plus, no lung cancer