IFR Certified Aircraft - Where is certification documented?

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
As a new owner, trying to understand the records, I'm just wondering where I find a document or record attesting to the IFR certification.

Thanks
 
kontiki said:
As a new owner, trying to understand the records, I'm just wondering where I find a document or record attesting to the IFR certification.

Thanks
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It would be in the aircraft log.
 
Depends what "certification" you are talking about. The Altimeter/Transponder/Static inspection should be in the log. Any installation of IFR GPS will be in the records (337) as well. What is sufficient for meeting IFR legality is dependent on the type certificate (and largely when the aircraft was certified). In my case (1950 Navion), all I have to do is meet 91.205(d) and the appropriate 337 for the IFR GPS plus the transonder/static test.

Other aircraft you're going to have to look at the TC or POH to find out what you need (or even if it is possible) to be legal IFR.
 
An entry for the pitot static and transponder checks every 2 years.
FAR 91.411 pitot static
FAR 91.413 and part 43 appendix F transponder
 
Adding to what others have said, an IFR certified GPS will almost always be accompanied by an FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplement, even if there is no FAA approved airplane flight manual for the make/model airplane its installed in.
 
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So basically, we run through the TOMATO FLAMES - GRABCARD mnemonic, ensure specific systems that have a specified maintenance interval are current and it's certified?

It sounds more like compliance. Not that I want things more complicated, I just would have expected a certificate might be associated with certification.
 
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kontiki said:
So basically, we run through the TOMATO FLAMES - GRABCARD mnemonic, ensure specific systems that have a specified maintenance interval are current and it's certified?

It sounds more like compliance. Not that I want things more complicated, I just would have expected a certificate might be associated with certification.
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The POH or AFM often has a paragraph in the limitations section stating what kinds of operations are permitted. For example, the Cessna manuals I have say "The airplane is equipped for day VFR and may be equipped for night VFR and/or IFR operations." It then goes on to reference part 91 for the specifics, which have already been discussed. I believe that there are planes whose manuals do not authorize IFR flight.
 
FORANE said:
An entry for the pitot static and transponder checks every 2 years.
FAR 91.411 pitot static
FAR 91.413 and part 43 appendix F transponder
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There is no requirement for an entry relative to pitot tube checks every two years.
 
kontiki said:
So basically, we run through the TOMATO FLAMES - GRABCARD mnemonic, ensure specific systems that have a specified maintenance interval are current and it's certified?

It sounds more like compliance. Not that I want things more complicated, I just would have expected a certificate might be associated with certification.
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14 CFR 21.21 defines a certificated aircraft. For a specific aircraft, it's the TCDS along with the paperwork the manufacturer submits to the FAA. Also the data plate near the tail.

In this environment, the phrase "certificated" refers to the fact that the FAA "certifies" that the aircraft satisfies 21.21.
 
murphey said:
14 CFR 21.21 defines a certificated aircraft. For a specific aircraft, it's the TCDS along with the paperwork the manufacturer submits to the FAA. Also the data plate near the tail.

In this environment, the phrase "certificated" refers to the fact that the FAA "certifies" that the aircraft satisfies 21.21.
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I'll read this, it sounds reasonable. At some point in my own handling of STCs it occurred to me that the FAA issues a Supplemental Type Certificate to denote the approval of the stack of paper documents that define a change to the TC.

Usually, a modern package has at the top, a Master Dwg or Master Data list, that identifies each document and revision level of each of the documents in the stack.

And in general I recognize certificates are a practical way more of denoting an approval, vs stamping something on 100s of pages, duplicating copies of test results etc.

We even see messages on our PCs telling us that a certificate for software is changed, and we are in an age where certificates denoting approval aren't even necessarily even paper any more.

Hence my expectation for the term. I am now starting to consider the term may also be useful as marketing technobabble.

Like a pre-certified used car.
 
Summary of certifications required for IFR beyond regular VFR requirements:
  1. The aircraft must be certified for IFR operation in its type certificate. That will be documented in the POH (see Kinds of Operations in Section 2 Limitations) and/or Type Certificate Data Sheet.
  2. The aircraft must be equipped with all the equipment specified in 91.205(d). That can be checked by examining the aircraft.
  3. The altimeter/static system must have been tested and certified under 91.411 within the preceding 24 calendar months. That is documented in the aircraft maintenance records, usually the Airframe Log, sometimes the Avionics Log (which not all planes have separately).
  4. IFR GPS will be documented in an AFM Supplement which must be aboard (even if your plane doesn't have a required AFM). If it was installed after the plane left the factory, there should also be maintenance record entries and a 337 documenting the installation and approval.
  5. If there is a VOR to be used for IFR, it must have been checked for accuracy IAW 91.171 within the preceding 30 days and a record made of the check, but this one you can do yourself.
Note that the 91.413 transponder check is required for all transponder use, even VFR only.
 
Ron Levy said:
Summary of certifications required for IFR beyond regular VFR requirements:
  1. The aircraft must be certified for IFR operation in its type certificate. That will be documented in the POH (see Kinds of Operations in Section 2 Limitations) and/or Type Certificate Data Sheet.
  2. The aircraft must be equipped with all the equipment specified in 91.205(d). That can be checked by examining the aircraft.
  3. The altimeter/static system must have been tested and certified under 91.411 within the preceding 24 calendar months. That is documented in the aircraft maintenance records, usually the Airframe Log, sometimes the Avionics Log (which not all planes have separately).
  4. IFR GPS will be documented in an AFM Supplement which must be aboard (even if your plane doesn't have a required AFM). If it was installed after the plane left the factory, there should also be maintenance record entries and a 337 documenting the installation and approval.
  5. If there is a VOR to be used for IFR, it must have been checked for accuracy IAW 91.171 within the preceding 30 days and a record made of the check, but this one you can do yourself.
Note that the 91.413 transponder check is required for all transponder use, even VFR only.
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Thanks Ron, just found it. My AC is an AA-5B, The TC (available at FAAs site) states certified for VFR, IFR, day, night. The POH says equipped for day VFR as with standard equipment and may be equipped for VFR night and/or IFR operations and points you to part 91 for those requirements.

I feel comfortable I can self audit my own compliance with this.
 
Ron Levy said:
The aircraft must be certified for IFR operation in its type certificate. That will be documented in the POH (see Kinds of Operations in Section 2 Limitations) and/or Type Certificate Data Sheet.
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Note that older aircraft will not typically have a type certificate restriction on kinds of operation nor such a note in the POH (or even have a POH).
 
flyingron said:
Note that older aircraft will not typically have a type certificate restriction on kinds of operation nor such a note in the POH (or even have a POH).
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I was wondering about that, since earlier POHs I've seen are pretty rudimentary.
 
flyingron said:
Note that older aircraft will not typically have a type certificate restriction on kinds of operation nor such a note in the POH (or even have a POH).
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According to your Navion's TCDS, your aircraft must have an "Approved Airplane Flight Manual (Approved Operating Limitations)" aboard. I'll bet there's something in there on this issue.
 
flyingron said:
Note that older aircraft will not typically have a type certificate restriction on kinds of operation nor such a note in the POH (or even have a POH).
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My C-170's TCDS does not mention anything about IFR certification, nor does the Flight manual which must be carried in the aircraft as a portion of the placarding required.

These old CAR certified aircraft are totally dependent upon FAR 91 for requirements for IFR equipment, which isn't much.
 
Ron Levy said:
According to your Navion's TCDS, your aircraft must have an "Approved Airplane Flight Manual (Approved Operating Limitations)" aboard. I'll bet there's something in there on this issue.
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No, these old aircraft have nothing in the AFM stating IFR requirements, they are totally dependent on FAR 91 for the required equipment.
 
kontiki said:
Thanks Ron, just found it. My AC is an AA-5B, The TC (available at FAAs site) states certified for VFR, IFR, day, night. The POH says equipped for day VFR as with standard equipment and may be equipped for VFR night and/or IFR operations and points you to part 91 for those requirements.

I feel comfortable I can self audit my own compliance with this.
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Bingo, should be fairly strait forward, I "made" a Cherokee IFR a couple years ago by adding the missing equipment from 91.205 d.

Easy peasy (for once)
 
Typical AFM for early CAR certified aircraft.
 

Attachments

  • 48170_AFM.pdf
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Tom-D said:
No, these old aircraft have nothing in the AFM stating IFR requirements, they are totally dependent on FAR 91 for the required equipment.
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Some do, some don't -- you have to read the AFM to find out. But yes, if there's nothing in there about it, then 91.205 (and the other regs involved like 91.411) are the drivers.
 
Ron Levy said:
Some do, some don't -- you have to read the AFM to find out. But yes, if there's nothing in there about it, then 91.205 (and the other regs involved like 91.411) are the drivers.
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show me a CAR certified aircraft that does?

I care for 1 old twin Navion in the hangar behind me, and have read the AFM, it is typical (format) of the one I posted.
 
I think a good way to go about it is as with many other things, "show me why I can't fly IFR" rather than looking for specific permission to do so
 
Skylane81E said:
I think a good way to go about it is as with many other things, "show me why I can't fly IFR" rather than looking for specific permission to do so
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that kinda leaves your butt out in the wind for 91.3 & 91.7
 
Skylane81E said:
Well yeah, PIC is in command.
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and they are responsible for the safe operation which means they must have all the required equipment to operate safely.
 
Tom-D said:
and they are responsible for the safe operation which means they must have all the required equipment to operate safely.
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Yep, so if I have the equipment, and no note from the FAA/Manufacturer saying I can't I have an IFR ship
 
Tom-D said:
show me a CAR certified aircraft that does?
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Try this one for an M20E certified under CAR 3:
Certification basis Date of application for Type Certificate April 9, 1952. Type Certificate No. 2A3 basis
issued August 24, 1955. No exemptions.​
Model M20E, CAR 3, effective November 1, 1949, as amended to May 18, 1954.
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...containing the following:​


FAA APPROVED M20E Page4
Required Instruments and Equipment
Basic
1. Airspeed Indicator
2. Altimeter
3. Magnetic Dir. Ind. (Mag Compass)
4. Fuel Quantity
5. Oil Pressure
6. Oil Temperature
7. Tachometer
8. Cylinder Head Temperature
9. Fuel Pressure Indicator
10. Master Switch
11. Battery and Generator
12. Fuses or Circuit Breakers
13. Safety Belts​

I.F.R. and Night (in addition to above)
14. Position Lights
15. Elec. Landing Light (if used for hire)
*16. 2 Way Radio Communications & Navigation
Appropriate to Ground Facilities to be Used
17. Gyro Rate of Turn
18. Bank Indicator
19. Sensitive Altimeter (covered by Item 2)
20. Clock with Sweep Second Hand
21. Gyro Horizon
22. Gyro Compass
23. Power Adequacy for Each Gyro Instrument
Caution should be exercised when conducting approaches and departures under IFR when communications equipment installed interrupts the navigation signal during transmissions.​
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Ron Levy said:
Try this one for an M20E certified under CAR 3:
...containing the following:​
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Quote
"as amended to May 18, 1954".

That Amendment would have came from FAR 21 requirements.

edit

maybe not, CARs were in effect at that time.

but

Serial numbers eligible
1201 through 1700 and 1700A. Under the delegation option provisions of Part 21 of the FAR, Delegation Option Manufacturer No. SW-1 is authorized to approve design and production changes on airplane Serial Numbers 1201 through 1700A.
 
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Ron Levy said:
According to your Navion's TCDS, your aircraft must have an "Approved Airplane Flight Manual (Approved Operating Limitations)" aboard. I'll bet there's something in there on this issue.
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Yeah, but if you bothered to look at the item referenced in 401 (f), you'll find the book just says "Operating Limitations 7-17-50" (and mine actually has my N number on it). There's not a squat word about IFR in the book. Mostly it's just a list of the v speeds, oil/fuel capacities/specs, and the envelope information for the W&B.

The "Operation Manual" which is not the document referenced on the TC (and hence not required to be in the plane) just says the basic aircraft is equipped for "contact and instrument flight -- day and night".
 
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