IFR 250nm XC (Minimum Leg?)

[midlifeflyer]

How does the examiner verify you actually did the flight at all?

I love questions which basically ask, "how do they know I'm not a liar and a cheat?"

 

[MauleSkinner]

How does the examiner verify you actually did the flight at all?

While I can pencil whip anything, an examiner can see that I flew a 3-legged trip with three different approaches. How does the examiner verify that the flight was in compliance with the distance requirement?

 

[RussR]

I love questions which basically ask, "how do they know I'm not a liar and a cheat?"

I know.

Virtually everything pertaining with logbooks is on the honor system. So to accept honesty in one area but question it in another doesn't follow. For the vast majority of flights in my logbook I have no proof I actually made them, landed where I said I did, did or did not have passengers, was or was not actually current, flew the route indicated, anything. It could all be made up.

Many people seem to have a hard time with the instrument training XC though, but it pretty clearly does not indicate the airports have to be 250 nm straight-line distance. It specifically allows for "along airways or ATC directed routing". Heck, the distance requirement is one of the few unambiguous requirements in the book.

And if it came down to justifying the total distance, that's really simple in 2022 with ADS-B and logbook apps. So now more than ever I really don't see the issue. Heck, here's a recent flight of mine, data from MyFlightBook.

It was just an out-and-back, total straight-line distance 580.7 nm, my actual distance was 594.2 nm. Pretty easy to do the same to "prove" an instrument training XC.

 

[RyanB]

While I can pencil whip anything, an examiner can see that I flew a 3-legged trip with three different approaches.

I’ll play, how can an examiner see that you flew a 3-legged trip that meets the requirements? Will he/she go back and dig up the flight on FlightAware? What if it occurred more than a year or two ago - how will the examiner verify legitimacy then? I can’t imagine any DPE verifying each thing prior to beginning the exam.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I’ll play, how can an examiner see that you flew a 3-legged trip that meets the requirements? Will he/she go back and dig up the flight on FlightAware? What if it occurred more than a year or two ago - how will the examiner verify legitimacy then? I can’t imagine any DPE verifying each thing prior to beginning the exam.

He can at least check that you logged it correctly per the regs. Other than that, has to trust you. I had mine marked for him, he took a gander, probably did some mental math of how far apart they were based on his knowledge of the area, saw that I logged the approaches correctly, and moved on.

 

[RussR]

While I can pencil whip anything, an examiner can see that I flew a 3-legged trip with three different approaches. How does the examiner verify that the flight was in compliance with the distance requirement?

I’ll play, how can an examiner see that you flew a 3-legged trip that meets the requirements?

I agree. How can the examiner see that you flew any trip? If they actually want verification, then the very system that would be capable of providing that verification (Flightaware, logbook track, Foreflight track, etc.) also provides the verification of your route.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I’ll play, how can an examiner see that you flew a 3-legged trip that meets the requirements? Will he/she go back and dig up the flight on FlightAware? What if it occurred more than a year or two ago - how will the examiner verify legitimacy then? I can’t imagine any DPE verifying each thing prior to beginning the exam.

The DPE is responsible to verify that the requirements are met. That’s normally done via logbook entries, and unless something jumps out as falsification, we generally assume the logbook accurately reflects the pilot’s experience.

when it comes right down to it, it’s not the examiner’s responsibility to prove that a flight actually happened, or met the requirements…it’s the applicant’s.

 

[EdFred]

While I can pencil whip anything, an examiner can see that I flew a 3-legged trip with three different approaches. How does the examiner verify that the flight was in compliance with the distance requirement?

AAA-BBB-CCC-AAA via V-nnn, V-mmm, V-ppp in the Notes section of the logbook. Plus would an IR flight take 3.7 hours to go 50nm? Probably not.

Or just screen capture your flightaware track and bring it.

 

[RussR]

The DPE is responsible to verify that the requirements are met. That’s normally done via logbook entries, and unless something jumps out as falsification, we generally assume the logbook accurately reflects the pilot’s experience.

when it comes right down to it, it’s not the examiner’s responsibility to prove that a flight actually happened, or met the requirements…it’s the applicant’s.

I agree 100%, which is why I don't see where we're disagreeing about the "difficulty" of "proving" the flight distance of the instrument training XC.

If a DPE was to measure out the straight-line distances and it came to 230 nm, questioning it is reasonable - but when the answer is "we flew Vxxx and then went around the DME arc and then got vectors and flew a hold, I can show you the flight track if you want", I would then expect an "okay, sounds good, let's move on."

When I have done the flight where the straight-line distance is less than 250 nm, I have written in something like "meets 61.65 >250nm along airways".

Heck, any RNAV holding pattern is a minimum of 8 nm right there.

 

[MauleSkinner]

When I have done the flight where the straight-line distance is less than 250 nm, I have written in something like "meets 61.65 >250nm along airways".

To me, that’s the key. I would put remarks in my logbook that validate what I did rather than waiting for the examiner to question it.

 

[dmspilot]

So how does the examiner verify that I flew 250 miles if the straight line distance between the airports I used is only about, say, 50 miles for the entire flight?

How does the examiner verify that the flight was in compliance with the distance requirement?

I would put remarks in my logbook that validate what I did rather than waiting for the examiner to question it.

Why ask repeatedly something you already know the answer to?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why ask repeatedly something you already know the answer to?

The same reason the people to whom I responded told half the story and expected that everyone would understand. I’ve seen one too many people land with 10 minutes of fuel because they were told they could fly for four hours.

 

[EdFred]

The same reason the people to whom I responded told half the story and expected that everyone would understand. I’ve seen one too many people land with 10 minutes of fuel because they were told they could fly for four hours.

Well, 4 hours and 10 minutes. You glide for the last few.

 

[crash7]

CMI VOR 22! Actually the last approach in my logbook back in Jan.

I “taught” the CMI VOR/DME arc for 22 on my CFII ride many moons ago. Don’t think I’ve done one since until a couple months ago. Paducah VOR 23 in actual, no less.


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