Got to thinking, not always a good thing, but, how much the GA (general aviation - not the state) folks stay together in times of natural disasters. We all have seen the price gouging going on in FL -- difficult times seem to bring the worst out in some people, companies, etc. I know of one airport in GA (the state) that was offering free tie-downs and no landing fees, regular gas prices to anyone from FL escaping Matthew. Did you receive "normal" pricing at your planes' new temporary home or were they making a buck or two on your misfortune? Seems this is one of those times when GA needs to pull together. If they were taking advantage, might be a good time to start a list of "where not to go" next time this happens. POA has lots of members and some bad press for these FBO's may hurt their bottom line a little. I know if I knew of one, I'd never buy fuel there again!
If you flew your plane out because of Matthew - - -
- Thread starter old cfi
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Let'sgoflying!
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I doubled my hull and flew it in.
yes I know that doesn't work, it's a joke
yes I know that doesn't work, it's a joke
Dave Theisen
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Well, the AG disagrees with you. When hotel rooms triple, 24 count of bottled water is $30 and gas goes to $6/gal from $2/gal that's not supply and demand - that's price gouging - and in FL the AG wants to hear about these crooks. She's gonna be awful busy for awhile.
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Unit74
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Local terd in Brunswick went and bought pallets of generators, soaking up the local supply. Then promptly listed them on CL, Facebook and Twit for just over double price. Fortunately, he is willing to take credit cards.
He was dimed out to the AG promptly.
He was dimed out to the AG promptly.
Can only hope someday he'll be the victim of price gouging!!!
ARFlyer
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Disaster conditions and people raise the price to make a bigger buck. That is price gouging.
Brad Z
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I'd like to see big box stores change their return policies on stuff like generators, snow blowers, etc. so that yahoos don't go out and buy up their inventory, sell on CL, and then return the unsold inventory to the store after the storm for a full refund.
That said, I do believe that price fluctuations prevent hoarding buy encouraging people only to buy what they absolutely need. $6/gallon gas encourages people only to buy enough to get to another station where fuel is not in short supply.
That said, I do believe that price fluctuations prevent hoarding buy encouraging people only to buy what they absolutely need. $6/gallon gas encourages people only to buy enough to get to another station where fuel is not in short supply.
bflynn
Final Approach
Supply and Demand is always in play. If you keep prices artificially low, you experience shortages.
Does anyone know what constitutes "grossly"? Seems to me that this discourages people from selling...who wants to be accused of price gouging? It's a crime you're instantly presumed guilty of.
Florida Statue 501.160 (1)(b)(2) said:
Does anyone know what constitutes "grossly"? Seems to me that this discourages people from selling...who wants to be accused of price gouging? It's a crime you're instantly presumed guilty of.
Unit74
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It's also illegal during a disaster.
There was a Day's Inn in Fl that the rate was $50 and they jacked it to $200 and kicked out everyone who wouldn't/couldn't pay. Gas station that went to $9/gallon. I'm sure the civil fines will far outweigh the gains.
Unit74
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It's pretty obvious to me. Bumping the price a bit, I don't think your in for trouble. But if you sold at 2.19/gallon a couple days a go, and you are now charging $4.50 for that same gallon with no distribution increases, you are in for trouble.
Water that is $8 a case at Walmart a couple days ago and you now charge $30/case? Stand by for your day in court.
denverpilot
Tied Down
All of the above seem kinda stupid to me. Storm was known to be coming for a week. Could have filled up on gas and extra tanks, bought a generator, and TP all many days before the event and avoided the gougers altogether.
Hotel you couldn't have avoided, but a number of places have permanent sliding scales on room rates as the place fills up. They'd be pretty easy to have all the time. Kicking people out who had paid is the big difference there.
But the rest? But a yellow steno pad and learn to make a to-do list like everyone else. No government nanny required.
We get about 24 hours warning before blizzards out here. I manage to get fuel for the cars filled, the tractor, make sure the propane is high enough to make it or fall the propane truck company for an emergency fill, check the pantry is stocked, get the generator where it needs to be if used, fill it if it needs it, start it and know it works, pull the tractor with the three point snowblower into the small garage door, toss a few flashlights around, luv some bags of pellets down to the basement for the pellet stove, etc etc etc.
Just get your crap done before Joe Gouger is even setting up shop. Seems not that difficult.
Hotel you couldn't have avoided, but a number of places have permanent sliding scales on room rates as the place fills up. They'd be pretty easy to have all the time. Kicking people out who had paid is the big difference there.
But the rest? But a yellow steno pad and learn to make a to-do list like everyone else. No government nanny required.
We get about 24 hours warning before blizzards out here. I manage to get fuel for the cars filled, the tractor, make sure the propane is high enough to make it or fall the propane truck company for an emergency fill, check the pantry is stocked, get the generator where it needs to be if used, fill it if it needs it, start it and know it works, pull the tractor with the three point snowblower into the small garage door, toss a few flashlights around, luv some bags of pellets down to the basement for the pellet stove, etc etc etc.
Just get your crap done before Joe Gouger is even setting up shop. Seems not that difficult.
dmspilot
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I assure you that I won't, because I can't be a victim of something that doesn't exist.
Demand goes up, supply goes down, prices go up. It's the way it's supposed to work.
kyleb
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Drake the Outlaw
If I load up my trailer with plywood and drive it to florida to sell for $100/sheet, is that price gouging? Do I have a gun at someone's head to make 'em buy? No. I provided them an opportunity that they wouldn't have had unless I was willing to take the business risk.
Price gouging is a fabricated story, IMO.
Price gouging is a fabricated story, IMO.
ircphoenix
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It is a morally bankrupt action that profiteers on the misfortune of others.
This is why laws exist. To protect people from predators that view taking advantage of others as simple market dynamics.
Agree with getting your life in order before the storm hits. We always did that and my son was well prepared for Matthew. That being said, some things are just out of your control. Like having to move inland to a hotel. You can't control what you will be forced to pay when the rate has tripled and that, to me, is price gouging. Agree on the local gas thing. Get filled up before and keep it filled before storm hits. Unfortunately, you always have a great, great number of people that don't believe the storm will hit or storms have a habit of coming just before payday. For those living check-to-check they, through their own choices, get caught. Still don't think prices should be tripled!
But this thread was originally posted to find out what FBO's were doing to pilots who moved their planes out -- not about locals being gouged locally.
But this thread was originally posted to find out what FBO's were doing to pilots who moved their planes out -- not about locals being gouged locally.
Dave Theisen
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If the local Home Depot raises its prices to $100, you may have a point. But you can't expect someone to truck something in from hundreds of miles away and then expect them to sell it for cost.
Does the term "Carpetbagger" ring a bell?
Ravioli
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This is too perfect. What was the original checkout date? Were they overstaying? I think RTOT is going to be cool.
BTW Oshkosh isn't in Florida and this did not happen to me.
In closing, if the posted rack rate for the room is $200 they are entitled to collect it. That's not gouging. If the rate is higher than posted you have a potential claim for gouging. And the posting (in most states) must be IN THE ACTUAL ROOM. Read those markings on the door or in the closet.
Unit74
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Your missing the point. It's against state law to jack the rates during a natural disaster. Any other time, make it $1k a night at Osh and someone will pay.
I was at a local event recently and Boy Scouts were selling cold water for double what they paid. It was hot, I was thirsty. If a state of emergency is declared and the boyscouts did the same thing, they could be prosecuted.
It's a law I completely agree with.
I was at a local event recently and Boy Scouts were selling cold water for double what they paid. It was hot, I was thirsty. If a state of emergency is declared and the boyscouts did the same thing, they could be prosecuted.
It's a law I completely agree with.
Ravioli
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Actually you've missed the point. If they do not charge more than the posted rack rate, they are not gouging.
Unit74
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Ravioli
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If you can reply without insult, which law is that you would like to discuss? Please be specific.
You may not know what "rack rate" means. It's the max rate for that room. The other rates you see are discounts off of that. The more the hotel fills up the fewer discounts they offer.
Unit74
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I'm aware what it is. But this is just falling on deaf ears. This is not about a room rate and he hangs his hat on that as a singular rationale for his position. If that tool bag can't fathom that there is a law specifically aimed at jacking up the price of goods and services during a disaster, than its clear what side of the fence he falls on.
Wonder if rolie-polie has some generators, bread and water to sell right now. That would explain how retarded his position is and then would make perfect sense.
azure
Final Approach
Not always possible though, some disasters are unforeseeable. Earthquakes to a large degree, power outages due to internal failures or, though it's not happened yet on a large scale, space weather.
Anyone else remember August, 2003 in the eastern states? The gougers were out in force then, too. Gas normally cost somewhere south of $1.50 then, but lots of places were charging over $3.00/gal. A stern warning came out rather quickly from the governor's office (Michigan).
I say throw the book at them.
deonb
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Though I generally agree with price gouging laws, it does work both ways. I was stuck without power for 12 days after a windstorm some years ago, and of course all of the generators in a 200 mile radius were sold out.
If Home Depot would have flown generators in from another state and sold them for e.g. $250 each extra to cover their cost, they would have done the community a huge service, became everybody's hero's, and be promptly fined for price gouging conduct.
There needs to be a specific exemption when extraordinary measures are taken to replenish inventory.
If Home Depot would have flown generators in from another state and sold them for e.g. $250 each extra to cover their cost, they would have done the community a huge service, became everybody's hero's, and be promptly fined for price gouging conduct.
There needs to be a specific exemption when extraordinary measures are taken to replenish inventory.
bflynn
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Sure, easy examples.
But why if you paid for a special gas delivery and prices not only went up, but you also have to pay for the special delivery? Would 2.39/gal be too much? 2.50? 3.00? When does it become "gross"?
The famous case of the man who rented the haul, drove to NC then down to Florida with about 25 generators. How much profit is he entitled to for his entrepreneurial spirit and for his risk? Is a 60% profit on his 15k investment too much for supplying a much needed commodity? How about 40%?
Being undefined, I don't think I would risk helping out.
172andyou
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Who says it's undefined? Who says that you can't charge more to cover your costs if they go up?
ircphoenix
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If you could show in court that you're jacking up your price due solely or largely due to costs incurred in transporting, and maintaining a *reasonable* profit margin on the sale of the item, then even if you HAD a court date, the charges would probably be dismissed.
But that profit margin would most likely be compared to what a normal profit would be on said item. Don't get any bonus points for "entrepreneurial spirit" during a crisis.
But that profit margin would most likely be compared to what a normal profit would be on said item. Don't get any bonus points for "entrepreneurial spirit" during a crisis.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Because that's what capitalism is about... "reasonable" profit, unless you're a bailed out bank.
ircphoenix
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Golden rule...
AdamZ
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So to the OP's question, I'm not in the South East so I can't say what FBOs if any jacked up their transient rates. That said since this thread has morphed into a thread on price gouging. I find it odd the profiteering is ok in some scenarios and not others. The difference I think is when a state of emergency is declared.I have experienced it here in the north east when we experienced sever ice storms. I guess the fines are effective but I think the strongest deterrent is really shaming the business that price gouges. They gouge they don't get my business.
bflynn
Final Approach
Yeah, I will stay out of it. Too much undefined risk for too little reward. To bad, I had a line in some pumps that could have helped people dewater their houses. But my lawyer cannot tell me how much I am allowed to charge so I am out. People will just have to have water in their houses.
Words like "reasonable", "grossly" and "a bit" have no place in the law.
Words like "reasonable", "grossly" and "a bit" have no place in the law.
Jay Honeck
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The very risk of having to go to court to "prove" that you weren't "gouging" is enough to keep most people from lifting a finger to help.
That's the danger of turning a rescue operation into a socialist nightmare. You discourage people from getting involved.
ircphoenix
En-Route
I don't know. I seem to see plenty of people getting involved without a profit motive.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not talking at the personal level. I'm talking professionally and at the corporate level.
Why would a company, for example, risk sending in 10 semis full of chain saws and generators if they were going to be grilled later by some bureaucrat alleging "price gouging"? It's so much easier to sit back and watch.
At a time when you want an all-out relief effort, you have built a governmental barrier to same. The law of unintended consequences comes into play.
ircphoenix
En-Route
Why would a company ship items to a disaster area? I don't know... tax write offs? They seem to still do that.
If you mean why don't companies ship more products into a disaster area for the purpose of selling those items... it is probably because the demand drops off fairly quickly after the disaster has passed. Or because retail isn't usually the focus on disaster ravaged areas.
And there's nothing stopping them from shipping those items to home depot at normal retail prices and normal profit margins.
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Lol!!! like the gas in the tanks increased in value....