Hence, the opportunity for prospective customers to simply demonstrate the value of the product by not buying it.
If you flew your plane out because of Matthew - - -
- Thread starter old cfi
- Start date
Hence, the opportunity for prospective customers to simply demonstrate the value of the product by not buying it.
bflynn
Final Approach
Tax write offs? You don't write off perfectly good merchandise.
You also don't pay extraordinary shipping costs to sell something at a normal price. If you can ship it at normal cost, great and I assure you that Lowes and Home Depot have emergency replenishment programs that do exactly that. But even they have a limit. When their costs rise, it is no longer worth it to pursue a few thousand in profit at the risk of the corporate reputation.
So people in need do without. What a wonderful law.
Unit74
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Unit74
Regardless of what some of you think, the law is in place to protect people from those who have your ideologies. Don't try to sully the argument that your actions would be helping, and all the sudden you are now afraid of lawyers and courts. Thats total BS and you know it.
It's not capitalism, it's not "the way it's supposed to work" it's not the right thing to do and shame on you all for trying to act like taking advantage of people when they are in the worst of times is just A O.K.
It's not capitalism, it's not "the way it's supposed to work" it's not the right thing to do and shame on you all for trying to act like taking advantage of people when they are in the worst of times is just A O.K.
Mistake Not...
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Mistake Not...
Yeah. Everyone says that, and it sounds good on paper. Until you're in a situation where you absolutely need something and it's not available anywhere in range at any price.
Especially with modern just in time inventory management, there isn't the depth of supply to support endless quantities at state imposed prices when the instinct is to hoard ("I got mine"). Raising prices is a very effective form of rationing. Rationing that is conspicuously absent in the price gouging laws. Having lived through multiple hurricanes and several tornadoes (and the associated power outtages, road shut downs and gasoline / food shortages), I've never seen the price gouging laws have the intended effect (supplies available at normal prices for the duration of the event).
denverpilot
Tied Down
Nobody arguing the point here is suggesting taking advantage of anyone. They're arguing the risk and reward for shipping items into a disaster area. The "gouging" laws have a chilling effect on expensive relief efforts to bring things into an area that people should have purchased long before the event.
Which in the end is the real reason the laws exist. Because people are too dumb to buy supplies they'll need before the event. Especially events as common as hurricanes.
It's like our neighbors out here who were out here a year before they understood why they needed a generator. "You know your well pump won't run in an extended power outage, right?" They weren't intentionally dumb, but they hadn't thought it through.
bflynn
Final Approach
FTFY
It is not gouging laws themselves. It is gouging laws which allow definition after the fact of whether or not you've broken the law. If I am putting forth extraordinary effort to move a valuable commodity to an area of high need, I should be compensated with above average profit for making the effort. What I'm doing is desirable, bringing in things that are needed. Not at 200% profit, but how much is allowed? 5% is boring and I can probably get more than that staying at home. 10%? Yawn. 20%? Maybe. 50%? The more profit allowed, the more of a commodity will be made available because merchants will want to make money. But it should be defined by an exact amount.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Why not at 200% profit? Because some politician says so? I don't remember voting to protect lazy or disorganized people from their own lack of planning for weather events that have happened every single year since they've been alive. (I'd have a bit more heart on say, an earthquake in Nebraska. But this is standard eastern seaboard weather we're talking about here. It's not like anyone can claim they didn't know it was coming. Seems like society paid for these really expensive satellites and radars and stuff...)
ircphoenix
En-Route
Last month was the first time in 11 years that a hurricane made landfall in Florida. Not exactly an every year occurrence. And generally speaking, emergencies on a statewide scale far outstrip the resources available. It's easy to say "well I got mine so eff 'em" but turns out that hasn't been how societies have continued to exist for any length of time.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Any year one didn't threaten? Nope. I never said "I've got mine so eff 'em", at all. That's disingenuous BS.
As is the idea that societies don't exist without anti-gouging laws. Nanny-States don't exist without them, but that's a whole different level.
Two weeks of warning for a standard weather event seems like plenty of time to get your **** together. If not, you're probably traveling.
Do we need some nice government "I'm out of town" teams to go buy supplies and board up the house if someone is out of town, too?
But you give it away when you say "emergencies outstrip supply", of course they do. That's why you don't wait until a day before a storm to make your storm plan. Short supply chains fed from a long way away for capital goods isn't exactly anything new anywhere either. Nor reports on the TV that go national pointing out the inevitable has happened again and dolts are whining about it again. (Ever see anyone surprised by the news crew filming the same people standing in the gas line the day after? I certainly haven't.)
Even as a tourist to the area, I've seen the PSAs about being prepared for things. It's not like "society" hasn't warned folks over and over and over. Hell, your insurance deductible on the policy that renews once a year in the mail is a pretty good hint if you're a bit slow on the uptake, it sounds like.
The road signs are up around here telling folks to get freaking snow tires, again. Haven't seen a year in 44 of them that the signs haven't been up. And haven't seen a year where idiots aren't in the ditch due to bald tires. "Society" hasn't fixed it yet.
Got some nice fines you can pay now for causing accidents and logjams with your bald tires now, though. Probably money you should have spent on tires. Maybe government should set up a nice tire shop near the checkpoint and say, "You idiot. If you drive over there right now, and put proper tires on your vehicle we will waive the fine. If not, fine it is. Your call. Bring us back a receipt in an hour. We'll hold your credit card or cash until you come back." LOL.
Unit74
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Unit74
1. What is Price Gouging?
Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justify the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber.
Clarify it for anyone ? That's right from the AGs office in Fl. It is ambiguous and prosecution is generally reserved for those who "shock the conscience" of the court. Is $9/gallon for gas gouging when 3 days ago,it was $2.19? Case of water was $8.99 and today it's 29.99? A hotel was $49.99 with occupancy at that rate, then $199.99 and customers with multiple days booked at the $50 rate were told pay up or get out.
If the emergency is declared, you are legally bound.
I bought diesel for $2.37 about two days before we got hit. One day before it hit, the same station was $4.19 and a gas truck was at the station filling it. Is that cool? There were no closures from the distribution hubs. That's gouging on its face and by the law.
That's were the problem is. Not driving in a tractor full of wood from another state and recouping your investment plus reasonable profit. Or driving your tree crew and doing work with profits on top of expenses. Of course there will be higher costs involved.
Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justify the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber.
Clarify it for anyone ? That's right from the AGs office in Fl. It is ambiguous and prosecution is generally reserved for those who "shock the conscience" of the court. Is $9/gallon for gas gouging when 3 days ago,it was $2.19? Case of water was $8.99 and today it's 29.99? A hotel was $49.99 with occupancy at that rate, then $199.99 and customers with multiple days booked at the $50 rate were told pay up or get out.
If the emergency is declared, you are legally bound.
I bought diesel for $2.37 about two days before we got hit. One day before it hit, the same station was $4.19 and a gas truck was at the station filling it. Is that cool? There were no closures from the distribution hubs. That's gouging on its face and by the law.
That's were the problem is. Not driving in a tractor full of wood from another state and recouping your investment plus reasonable profit. Or driving your tree crew and doing work with profits on top of expenses. Of course there will be higher costs involved.
ircphoenix
En-Route
I guess all those stupid Floridians should have had gas on hand and plywood stored in the bedrooms for the last 11 years, just in case.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Another non sequitur. I have gas on hand here and don't seem to have any trouble rotating it through the vehicles and the tractor. Even a mix of gas and diesel.
Was there a shortage of gas cans in the month prior to the storm?
You could make an argument for plywood.
But recall that the thread was about some guy buying generators and re-selling them. Generators that apparently were sitting right there at the local store ready to be purchased the day, week, and month prior.
It's not like a modern inverter generator takes up much space, drained and cleaned and ready to use. And if you're living with really limited storage, there's nothing stopping anyone from pitching in a few bucks with neighbors for a storage unit somewhere. Or a shed.
It ain't rocket science to manage your own affairs. Lots of people act like it is, but it's not. $100 and a backpack gets you enough stuff to survive a week in a car. $500 a space the size of the corner of a closet get you through most every natural disaster just fine until infrastructure returns or at least a safe escape route is available.
You just have to plan further ahead than "tomorrow". But I know. That cup of Starbucks today is more important.
ircphoenix
En-Route
What if there is no tomorrow? Then I planned for nothing!
dmspilot
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The law doesn't protect anybody, you only perceive it to do so because you are suffering from the following errors of logic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
The laws hurt more than they help for a variety of reasons, such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
—Milton Friedman
Unit74
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Unit74
I'm not suffering from anything other than compassion, logic and sound reasoning in society.
But nice try.
But nice try.
The law doesn't protect anybody, you only perceive it to do so because you are suffering from the following errors of logic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
The laws hurt more than they help for a variety of reasons, such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
—Milton Friedman
dmspilot
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Wrong. No way you could have educated yourself in 6 minutes; you obviously want to be ignorant.
denverpilot
Tied Down
LOL. "Sound reasoning" behind laws?
You sure you haven't been visiting one of the Dispensaries here in CO?
"Populist ideas" rarely equates to "sound reasoning". It's just Lord of the Flies pretending to be civil.
ircphoenix
En-Route
"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." ~ John Maynard Keynes
...and the hell of it is, it's actually true.
denverpilot
Tied Down
JustinD
Line Up and Wait
Well to answer the original question I flew my bird from DAB to TLH, they didn't offer any special pricing on gas or tie downs just the regularly advertised prices so there was no price gauging at all. Prior to the storm where I live in Daytona I noticed no price gouging for fuel, water or anything else for that matter.
The FBO did mess up and accidentally topped off my airplane before I called for any fuel at all (you can imagine the initial panic when i got a phone call in the morning "hi justin this is xxxx from xxxx and there was a mishap", i was relived when she told me it was the fuel thing!), so they waived all the fees and offered me a very good discount on the fuel price for their mistake. Can't complain, I'll use the gas anyway at some point and it was even cheaper than fuel at home base for me!
The FBO did mess up and accidentally topped off my airplane before I called for any fuel at all (you can imagine the initial panic when i got a phone call in the morning "hi justin this is xxxx from xxxx and there was a mishap", i was relived when she told me it was the fuel thing!), so they waived all the fees and offered me a very good discount on the fuel price for their mistake. Can't complain, I'll use the gas anyway at some point and it was even cheaper than fuel at home base for me!
ircphoenix
En-Route
It's a 182, right? Not like you had to worry about useful load. =D
JustinD
Line Up and Wait
Exactly! I usually try to only have around 40-50 gallons in it when its just sitting at home that way if i want to take a quick hundred dollar burger flight with so with 3 friends I'm not over, but with the discount, I'll make it work! Plus gives me an excuse to fly a little more now
Brad Z
Final Approach
Free market still works even when there's a disaster. If a guy can show up with a trailer full of generators and sell them at 200% cost, there's a good chance another guy could pull up next to him, selling his at 150%...and another guy at 100%. In a free market equilibrium will be established. In the beginning there may be some profiting, and in the end some guys may be selling their surplus of generators for pennies on the dollar once demand has declined.
Heck, I can make money transporting a 100 one gallon bottles of drinking water in my plane if I can mark the $.99 bottle up to $5. Am I gouging? Considering the 7-11 sells a 20oz bottle of Dasani for $1.59, I'd say no.
The important thing is that when prices spike, people only buy what they need; it's too expensive to hoard, and that leaves more resources for everyone else.
Heck, I can make money transporting a 100 one gallon bottles of drinking water in my plane if I can mark the $.99 bottle up to $5. Am I gouging? Considering the 7-11 sells a 20oz bottle of Dasani for $1.59, I'd say no.
The important thing is that when prices spike, people only buy what they need; it's too expensive to hoard, and that leaves more resources for everyone else.
Unit74
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I'm not going to waste my time reading some interwebz professors post trying to support a position that compromises some of the most basic morals principals we as an advanced society strive to achieve.
Pretty simple really. I make a stand that is righteous and true. You position yourself on the opposite either to stir the pot or try to substantiate your views by none other than Wikipedia? Really?
Are you in any academic field or just trying to appear intelligent by posting the top link on a Google search?
kyleb
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Drake the Outlaw
Bingo.
If you live in Florida or coastal GA, SC, NC it is entirely reasonable to have these things at hand. Not necessarily plywood (which could rot) but a stack of aluminum 'hurricane panels' and boxes of fasteners to install them.
Thank you, JustinD, for getting this thread back on track -- at least momentarily! Guess these "price gouging" professors just needed to vent. Glad you had a good experience in TLH. I always found them to be "good people" when I flew in FL. Hope you fared okay at the home front. Now if we can just get some more feedback we'd have a pretty good list of where to go and not to go.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
We live on an island in the Gulf of Mexico. We keep:
- Plywood for all the vulnerable windows and glass doors at the hotel
- Two generators
- 100 gallons of ethanol free gas
- Food for two weeks
- Water for two weeks
- Flashlights, batteries, radios
Except for the plywood, all are regularly rotated, maintained, and used to be kept fresh.
This is what sane people do when they live in a hurricane zone. Anyone who does not do this is an idiot. Period.