Icing is a b****

Chrisgoesflying

Chrisgoesflying

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Chrisgoesflying
I just found out that someone I knew of was fatally injured last spring in a Mooney. Wasn't a friend, just someone I exchanged a few emails with when I was plane shopping as he was an aircraft broker. I read the report of what happened and it appears to have been icing. What does one do when encountering icing? Change altitude, turn around? But how much time does one really have once the ice starts building? Also, how does a plane handle in those situations? Based on the wreckage image, it seems like the plane came down somewhat controlled. Would love to hear from pilots who have been in icing conditions but made it out fine. Also, look at the photos of the ice that fell off. This doesn't look like a whole lot of ice. How long would it take to accumulate that much ice? Lastly, does ice only occur in visible moisture? What if it's humid but no visible moisture is present (e.g. no clouds, fog, mist, etc.) just a high humidity level with temps below freezing. Would that create ice?

Here is the report for anyone wanting to read it: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2022/A22W0027/A22W0027.html
 
The answer to your questions is it depends. I've been in icing several timed in a fiki cirrus. It was no big deal because of the fiki, but I would not want to be in ice without it. Even with fiki it can end badly. So you have to be careful. It's best not to get into ice in the first place. That starts with your weather brief. The standard Foreflight brief is crap for ice planning unless it is a hands down icing day where there is no question you should not fly. You need to understand how to look at the weather and specifically figure out ice to go. Otherwise just stick with no Brainer days.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Don't fly in KI, with a/c not equipped for KI.
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That's a very obvious answer. However, what if you fly into unknown icing. Obviously, if you know there will be icing conditions en route, you don't go, but what if no icing is forecast, you head out and halfway through your flight, weather isn't as forecast and you get ice. Or is that an unrealistic scenario? Is the icing forecast super duper reliable? I've been told by weather briefers (in Canada) that en route is nice VFR all the way, only to find out that I was in IMC due to low visibility from a snow shower and had to turn back around.
 
I got a good story, take too long to type…

Icing generally only exists in 3 or 4 k thick bands. If safe to do so, generally best to descend.

Turning around isn’t a bad idea.

Generally doesn’t accumulate weirdly fast, BUT IT CAN. (stand by for “so there I was”). So honor the threat and CHANGE SOMETHING.

Two threats, airfoil change and weight gain, both resulting in increased stall speed. So don’t decrease your speed if able.
 
Tools said:
I got a good story, take too long to type…

Icing generally only exists in 3 or 4 k thick bands. If safe to do so, generally best to descend.

Turning around isn’t a bad idea.

Generally doesn’t accumulate weirdly fast, BUT IT CAN. (stand by for “so there I was”). So honor the threat and CHANGE SOMETHING.

Two threats, airfoil change and weight gain, both resulting in increased stall speed. So don’t decrease your speed if able.
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Can result in an elevator stall too.
 
Damn.. he was 0.6 mile from the airport

Ice is no joke. First few times I encountered it I was surprised at how quickly it builds. Yes, the Cirrus FIKI system works beautifully, but it also made me never want to find ice in something that wasn't explicitly equipped for it
 
I don’t fly small planes into clouds and generally when it is not sunny and clear.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
That's a very obvious answer. However, what if you fly into unknown icing. Obviously, if you know there will be icing conditions en route, you don't go, but what if no icing is forecast, you head out and halfway through your flight, weather isn't as forecast and you get ice. Or is that an unrealistic scenario? Is the icing forecast super duper reliable? I've been told by weather briefers (in Canada) that en route is nice VFR all the way, only to find out that I was in IMC due to low visibility from a snow shower and had to turn back around.
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Did you check the GFAs? The briefers only give an overview over the phone. The GFAs and TAFs are far more comprehensive. Look at both the clouds and weather GFAs and the icing, turbulence and freezing level forecasts.

The METARs give temperature and dewpoint. When those two numbers are close together, watch out. Carb ice isn't the only risk there; cloud, fog and precipitation can appear out of thin air when the temperature drops a little and meets the dewpoint.

And in winter, anything is possible and should be expected.

In Canada the government tries to keep us from killing ourselves, but someone usually manages it from time to time.

De-icing or Anti-icing Equipment
605.30 No person shall conduct a take-off or continue a flight in an aircraft where icing conditions are reported to exist or are forecast to be encountered along the route of flight unless

  • (a) the pilot-in-command determines that the aircraft is adequately equipped to operate in icing conditions in accordance with the standards of airworthiness under which the type certificate for that aircraft was issued; or
  • (b) current weather reports or pilot reports indicate that icing conditions no longer exist.
In Canada, that means much of the time in winter. Yet some still take off and get caught by ice.

Some years ago a Mooney (IIRC) crashed in central Alberta. It was on a night IFR flight. It was flown by a VFR pilot, and was at 18,000 feet (!) when it picked up a load of ice and plunged to earth, burying the engine ten feet into the ground. This pilot violated numerous common-sense regulations and the price was paid.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
That's a very obvious answer. However, what if you fly into unknown icing.
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in your example, it was 900ovc and freezing at the surface shortly before liftoff.
So, the obvious answer applies.

Your follow-on hypotheticals are good questions. (although most of your power in such situations still lies in prevention)

If enroute, immediately turning back upon first detection of ice is one option.
Others talk of altitude changes, but descending to warmer air, where terrain permits, is often the only feasible path.
 
Bear in mind those photos were almost certainly taken many hours after the crash (next day probably), so the ice was probably significantly worse.

Freezing rain is the worst case scenario and will quickly overwhelm most light aircraft.

I don't avoid all visible moisture below freezing, but I do make certain to have an out, and that I won't be forced to linger in it. A climb or descent through a layer is far different from sitting in it for an hour. In the winter here, there is often a 1000' thick stratus layer that can be blasted through into sunny skies on top. The skew-t is an excellent resource for figuring out where the clouds will be and what the temperatures will be there. There's often an inversion in winter, with warmer air on top of the cloud layer.

I've found icing airmets to be totally useless. The GFA icing tool is pretty good, although it did let me down a couple weeks ago; it forecast less than 25% chance of ice and I did pick some up. You may have seen that thread.

The most ice I've ever picked up was in Wyoming in June. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to climb out of it as we were so high already, but we eventually got on top. In that case the answer would've been a descent back to warm air, but we would've had to stay another day because the MEA was above the freezing level.
 
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Chrisgoesflying said:
......Would love to hear from pilots who have been in icing conditions but made it out fine. ....

Here is the report for anyone wanting to read it: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2022/A22W0027/A22W0027.html
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The pictures in that link are taken by someone who was late to the party. You can't really look at those and think that you have an idea of what icing looks like.

I'm one of (too many) people with stories about icing. I lived - and so did my wife and best friend, but it was a hell of an education and some people don't survive the lesson.

I was in a turbo 182 and flew into icing conditions. I had checked with pilots who had just landed after flying my planned route in the opposite direction. They told me that they hadn't had any issues with ice, so I went for it. Bad idea. When I hit the cloud layer, I went from a nice clean airframe to badly iced up, with the windows completely opaque in a matter of a few minutes. I was at 11,500 (the MEA where I was) and tried to climb out of the icing - wasn't gonna happen. I asked ATC for lower and they had to keep me at 11-5 due to mountains all around me. I was smart enough to turn off the auto-pilot and do my best to try and keep whatever airspeed I could. The indicated airspeed dropped by 30-40 knots pretty damn fast. Luckily, I only had to stay at 11,500 for about 10 miles. I was given lower as soon as possible, but it felt like forever. I could definitely feel the difference in how the plane handled. The layer of ice on the plane didn't start to fall off until I was at about 2500 ft and starting to be vectored for my instrument approach into a sea level airport. The windshield didn't clear until I was on final at less than 1000 feet. I was seriously wondering what it would be like to land with no forward visibility (just open the side window and lean out?). When I landed, there was still a 1/2 inch of ice on the struts, wheel pants, the tip of the prop spinner and parts of the tail. More ice than you see in those pictures you referenced.

Ice is no joke. Don't even think about trying it out to see for yourself what the big fuss is all about. This stuff can kill you fast. Read up on tail plane stalls and ask yourself if you really think you're good enough to identify one and then recover in time to save you and your passengers.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Lastly, does ice only occur in visible moisture?
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Yes, other than carb ice.
Chrisgoesflying said:
What if it's humid but no visible moisture is present (e.g. no clouds, fog, mist, etc.) just a high humidity level with temps below freezing. Would that create ice?
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No, other than carb ice.

I have been in ice numerous times, but flying an airframe that is unforgiving in that environment I am very conservative in conditions where ice may be encountered. I do not fly in visible moisture unless I have a solid out such as air above freezing at an acceptable IFR altitude for the area. That way, when ice is encountered, the escape is an easy descend to lower warmer air where the ice will slide right off. Absent the out described above, if I can't go over, under or around the visible moisture, I just don't go. That's the trade off for having a plane without de-ice.
 
Tools said:
Icing generally only exists in 3 or 4 k thick bands. If safe to do so, generally best to descend.
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Ok, first off, a disclaimer: I am not an expert in this subject, and the post I am responding to here is from someone who has much more knowledge and experience than I have. This post is meant only as a discussion point for consideration and debate.

Doc Bruce posted at one time recommending that you should first try to climb for icing. (This is the sticky in the "Cleared for the Approach" forum under the thread titled, "Why climb for Ice?") As I recall, the thinking was that 1) the icing tends to be greatest at the top of the cloud layer, and there's a strong chance that is your quickest way out to VFR conditions, and 2) once you descend, climbing is no longer an option, but if you climb and it doesn't work, you can always still descend.

Ok-- I going back and reading Doc Bruce's posts, I think I have falsely attributed this advice to him. (There is a reason why I posted the disclaimer up top!) The whole thread is worth a read, though.
 
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Wow I looked at the picture of that aircraft and to my untrained eyes, it looked like it would have been survivable with minimal injuries. Do all mooneys have shoulder harnesses?
 
Ask anyone who flies in the PNW. :)

Ice needs active management when it's encountered, and possibly immediate action. I don't think it's the same urgency as james bond strapped to the table with the crotch-laser driving to the hoop -- but it CAN be like that.

My SLD encounter, though, had me reaching for the PTT to declare I was landing at the field below me right fn now. Then it stopped. I took on about 3/4" of ice in 8-10 seconds. It was like a garden hose spraying ice all over the plane. I'd prefer to never have THAT encounter again. My other dozen or two encounters have been slow accumulation, slow airspeed decay, and decision to change 2 or 4 thousand feet in altitude before things get too much.

A lot depends on how much surplus performance and load capability you have to throw at the problem. It's dire for little underpowered planes or critical wing shapes. Some of us inefficient coal-rollers with big fat naca wings can spare a little time to think the problem through, secure our martini, pause our netflix, then choose which action to take if the airspeed decays further than we deem allowable. :D
 
I’m also curious about icing to have some basic skills or understanding in the event I get into icing conditions. It’s easy to say to avoid but stuff happens, inadvertent IMC, etc. Very likely to happen at some point if you fly places and at night.
 
mandm said:
Very likely to happen at some point if you fly places and at night.
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I instructed at night. We never ran into anything not warned about by the aviation weather people. Sometimes you just have to pay close attention to tiny numbers, temp and dewpoint among them, and know how the weather works. That's one of the big deals in Commercial and IFR training, and PPLs should do those groundschools and get the education.

Sometimes I'd get to work on a nice spring morning. 8 AM. Sun up a little ways. The ground is damp from a rain the night before. No wind. The temperature and dewpoint were three degrees apart. Everyone was excited about the nice weather and were getting ready to go flying. I'd tell them that the airport would be fogged in a half-hour hence. They didn't believe me, at first. Then it would fog in.

The sun rose, warmed the ground, driving off that moisture into the air and raising the dewpoint to meet the air temp. Fog. Simple. Stays foggy until the sun warms the air enough to get a temp-dewpoint spread again.

Other times, a beautiful windless morning. Nice day, it will be. Nope, going to get really windy before ten AM. Why? The upper winds are fierce, not far above our elevation, and once the sun heats the ground and warms the air, the nocturnal inversion disappears and the still air connects with the moving upper air, and it gets windy. Nocturnal inversions are why the wind tends to die at night, unless it's stormy.

Then we can get into chinook theory. That's really interesting, too. Had one here last night, hundreds of miles from the Rockies. Snow was melting like crazy.
 
I never worried about it that much. With 300 hp, I could maintain a thousand foot per minute climb all the way up to 10,000, and in midwestern states that usually gets you on top in the sunshine. Ice is seldom more than a couple of thousand feet deep, so I figured I would be out of it in a couple of minutes. The only time it really scared me was on an approach where I was stuck in the cloud tops until intercepting the glide slope. A missed approach that day probably would have been fatal.

I wish I had taken a photo of the Bonanza before we melted the ice off with hair dryers.
 
Flying in Alaska taught me about ice. Every situation will be different. There is no one answer that fits all situations (except don't fly).

Please remember that I flew for a living, so not going was the absolute last choice. Which I did cancel flights for forecast moderate or more icing, or Pireps stating moderate or more icing.

Change altitude, if it was raining at a lower altitude then go back there if at all possible. Or climb if clear above. Icing conditions is usually only a few thousand feet thick, but not always.

Turn around and descend if ice is encountered after takeoff and climbing.

Avoid clouds when the temps are below 32.

As stated before all icing encounters can be different.

I have iced up different planes, single engine with no ice protection, except pitot heat, to twins with ice protection. Some planes handle ice better than others. I have iced up in a C-207 that could either hold airspeed or altitude but not both. I opted to keep airspeed up and had enough altitude to make the airport.

Once in a Navajo while on the ILS into Kotzebue I hit severe icing on final and built up about 8 inches on the nosecone. There was 2 to 6 inches on the side of the nose all the way back to the windscreen, like waves on the ocean. Landing was, I'll describe it as firm.

The C-414 did not take ice very well. The relatively thin wing did not shed ice like the fat wing Navajo did when activating the boots.

I do not fear icing, but I do have a healthy respect for icing conditions.
 
Keep in mind @Chrisgoesflying , you will hear lots of stories about how light aircraft made it through known icing conditions without protection, possibly using strategies to avoid it.

My take on that is that a person can do this a few times but if you keep doing it, I believe statistically it will catch up with you. You can dodge ice 20 times then bam, you find an instance where it is building and no way out.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
My take on that is that a person can do this a few times but if you keep doing it, I believe statistically it will catch up with you. You can dodge ice 20 times then bam, you find an instance where it is building and no way out.
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Yup. Complacency is one of the Dirty Dozen factors in human error:

upload_2022-12-27_13-2-5.gif
 
Dan Thomas said:
I instructed at night. We never ran into anything not warned about by the aviation weather people. Sometimes you just have to pay close attention to tiny numbers, temp and dewpoint among them, and know how the weather works. That's one of the big deals in Commercial and IFR training, and PPLs should do those groundschools and get the education.

Sometimes I'd get to work on a nice spring morning. 8 AM. Sun up a little ways. The ground is damp from a rain the night before. No wind. The temperature and dewpoint were three degrees apart. Everyone was excited about the nice weather and were getting ready to go flying. I'd tell them that the airport would be fogged in a half-hour hence. They didn't believe me, at first. Then it would fog in.

The sun rose, warmed the ground, driving off that moisture into the air and raising the dewpoint to meet the air temp. Fog. Simple. Stays foggy until the sun warms the air enough to get a temp-dewpoint spread again.

Other times, a beautiful windless morning. Nice day, it will be. Nope, going to get really windy before ten AM. Why? The upper winds are fierce, not far above our elevation, and once the sun heats the ground and warms the air, the nocturnal inversion disappears and the still air connects with the moving upper air, and it gets windy. Nocturnal inversions are why the wind tends to die at night, unless it's stormy.

Then we can get into chinook theory. That's really interesting, too. Had one here last night, hundreds of miles from the Rockies. Snow was melting like crazy.
Click to expand...

Experience :D
 
mandm said:
I’m also curious about icing to have some basic skills or understanding in the event I get into icing conditions. It’s easy to say to avoid but stuff happens, inadvertent IMC, etc. Very likely to happen at some point if you fly places and at night.
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When I had my new to me IFR rating, I went up and tickled the bear. It was a local flight with bases at 1600 agl, and the tops at roughly 3000 MSL. Airport altitude was 900 MSL. Temperatures below the deck were well above freezing. It was interesting flying through the layer on the IFR decent/approach picking up a light coating of rime, maybe a 1/4 inch. Once below the deck, it sublimated off, and the wind was clean on the GA. Wanted to see exactly where on the airplane I could spot the ice accumulating.
 
If you don’t have FIKI your best option is avoidance. You don’t have a real xc tool, you have a toy made for fair weather. Leave it home, drive, or hire a big boy to fly you.

If you get into icing, get out. Do some reading on the different types of icing to help you avoid those situations. Don’t take unnecessary risk.
 
Have an out.

It might be turning around. Or descending or ascending to air that’s not 0 to -20 C. Or an alternate airport Where there’s no visible moisture. An out that you’re sure will get you to conditions where there’s no ice.

And you need to know the out before you take off. You don’t want to start asking what to do in the air when airframe ice happens. Instead you want a plan, i.e. the out, that you’ve already got ready.
 
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NoHeat said:
Have an out.

It might be turning around. Or descending or ascending to air that’s not 0 to -20 C. Or an alternate airport Where there’s no visible moisture. An out that you’re sure will get you to conditions where there’s no ice.

And you need to know the out before you take off. You don’t want to start asking what to do in the air when airframe ice happens. Instead you want a plan, i.e. the out, that you’ve already got ready.
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And keep yours ears out for other pilots giving PIREPS. First time I picked up ice, it was because the forecast was way off. A few minutes before it formed, someone gave a tops report that was only a little bit higher than me so it was quite reassuring that my planned out was going to be viable.
 
asicer said:
And keep yours ears out for other pilots giving PIREPS. First time I picked up ice, it was because the forecast was way off. A few minutes before it formed, someone gave a tops report that was only a little bit higher than me so it was quite reassuring that my planned out was going to be viable.
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The ability to get near real time pireps both over the internet on the ground and through ADSB in the air is a real game changer. I'm fortunate to be based at an airport with commercial service (TSA notwithstanding) and a lot of bizjets, so we get fairly regular tops/bases and icing reports from jets who are going flying unless the forecast is REAL nasty.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
What does one do when encountering icing?
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FAA Advisory Circular AC 91-74B, dated 10/8/15, Pilot Guide Flight in Icing Conditions

"If an aircraft is not certificated for flight in icing conditions ... [snip] In the event of an inadvertent icing encounter, the pilot should take appropriate action to exit the conditions immediately, coordinating with ATC as necessary, and declaring an emergency."

Perhaps worth reading the entire document which may lead to additional specific questions or scenarios?
 
Zeldman said:
Flying in Alaska taught me about ice. Every situation will be different. There is no one answer that fits all situations (except don't fly).

Please remember that I flew for a living, so not going was the absolute last choice. Which I did cancel flights for forecast moderate or more icing, or Pireps stating moderate or more icing.

Change altitude, if it was raining at a lower altitude then go back there if at all possible. Or climb if clear above. Icing conditions is usually only a few thousand feet thick, but not always.

Turn around and descend if ice is encountered after takeoff and climbing.

Avoid clouds when the temps are below 32.

As stated before all icing encounters can be different.

I have iced up different planes, single engine with no ice protection, except pitot heat, to twins with ice protection. Some planes handle ice better than others. I have iced up in a C-207 that could either hold airspeed or altitude but not both. I opted to keep airspeed up and had enough altitude to make the airport.

Once in a Navajo while on the ILS into Kotzebue I hit severe icing on final and built up about 8 inches on the nosecone. There was 2 to 6 inches on the side of the nose all the way back to the windscreen, like waves on the ocean. Landing was, I'll describe it as firm.

The C-414 did not take ice very well. The relatively thin wing did not shed ice like the fat wing Navajo did when activating the boots.

I do not fear icing, but I do have a healthy respect for icing conditions.
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What's your take on boots? Seems that TKS is more and more common, not just Cirrus but Caravans and Dahers use it too now. I believe FedEx may have even retrofitted their caravans. You'll also see boots on PC-12, TBM, several light jets, etc. They work great? They bridge ice? Emergency use only to get out of ice?
 
Tantalum said:
What's your take on boots? Seems that TKS is more and more common, not just Cirrus but Caravans and Dahers use it too now. I believe FedEx may have even retrofitted their caravans. You'll also see boots on PC-12, TBM, several light jets, etc. They work great? They bridge ice? Emergency use only to get out of ice?
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I looked after a Cessna 400 with the TKS. It was an expensive maintenance headache. The membranes tend to plug up with dried fluid, and you can't just try cleaning them with any old stuff lest you damage the underlying filter media. The plumbing tended to pop apart, too, inside the wing. It's a real delicate pain to get the membranes off to get at that stuff, without damaging the membrane. No other access.
 
Tantalum said:
What's your take on boots? Seems that TKS is more and more common, not just Cirrus but Caravans and Dahers use it too now. I believe FedEx may have even retrofitted their caravans. You'll also see boots on PC-12, TBM, several light jets, etc. They work great? They bridge ice? Emergency use only to get out of ice?
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If "air disasters" has taught me anything, it's that ice bridging is a myth when it comes to modern day boots.
 
Tantalum said:
What's your take on boots? Seems that TKS is more and more common, not just Cirrus but Caravans and Dahers use it too now. I believe FedEx may have even retrofitted their caravans. You'll also see boots on PC-12, TBM, several light jets, etc. They work great? They bridge ice? Emergency use only to get out of ice?
Click to expand...

With boots on the Navajo it worked best when the ice built up to 1/4 inch, then as soon as the boots were activated the ice was instantly gone. I got into severe icing on a approach once and activated the boots every 30 seconds and it kept the ice off the boots.

On the C-414 I would wait until about an 1/2 of ice had built up before activating the boots and still the ice would break up and slowly flake off. Maybe it would all come off but usually not.

I have only flown one airplane with TKS and that was a 210 out of Alabama, so I never got a chance to use it. From what others have told me they seemed to like the TKS system better. As far as the maintenance on boots, boots have to be cleaned occasionally as well, and they can also develop holes which can be patched. I have talked to the FedEx pilots in the Caravans and they seem to like the TKS system even though they all say it leaks.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Agree with thread title.

this happened last year going into KDTO. (Photo taken after landing)

View attachment 113434
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That’s a good representation of what can happen in icing and I’ve seen worse. The car type defroster that many light aircraft have might get you a porthole the size of a pie plate to see out of if you are lucky. That alone will ruin your day as even if you get out of the clouds that windshield ice is there to stay unless you can find some significantly warmer air or fly 100 miles + in hopes of it sublimating off.

I’m not going to open up the can of worms as to what “known icing” means from a legal or practical perspective, but what I can say is it’s a good idea to just stay out of the clouds if the OAT is less than +10C regardless of what any icing forecasts say. This is a nice and easy rule of thumb, that should always keep you out of ice other than in unusual situations where a boundary layer has pushed significantly different air masses together. If you do get in icing for most single piston aircraft descending is usually your best option as climbing with an ice load may not even be an option.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
In more than 50 years of flying, I have never encountered airframe ice except in clouds.
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I have. It was 2 years ago, I was on an instrument plan, flying along at 3 or 4,000 feet, about 200 feet below a cloud in the winter. It was overcast, dank day, probably 25F where I was, no precip. I'm fat dumb and happy when the windshield starts frosting up. I turn on the defroster, look at the wing and sure enough, trace to light rime forming up. I told the controller, he gave 1000 lower and it was fine. It's a FIKI plane, but I didn't feel the need to turn on the TKS, the ice was gone in a few minutes. It can happen.
 
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