I thought I wanted a Mooney...

tawood

tawood

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Tim
...but then I flew one, and YIKES! NOT FOR ME! I looked at a nice for sale M20J (actually bought an airline ticket for the next day, and went from Michigan to Texas in less than 24 hours after the ad posting). Shame on me for never flying (or even sitting in) in a Mooney before "picking" one as my upgrade from the Cherokee that I just sold.
So, my impression was I wasn't flying it at all...It felt like I was guiding a missile...a missile that I was crammed into/took 5 minutes to get out of...I was feeling completely claustrophobic! Then the pitch was very sensitive, while the roll was, well, just not there. I had to use two hands to roll the thing into a normal bank, literally unable to bank with one hand (I thought there was something wrong with the plane, but after we landed, I could move the ailerons no problem/without binding). The seller was very nice, and took me for a long flight, but quite frankly, flying it/flying in it was not fun. I couldn't wait to get out of it.
My complex time/high performance time, up to this point, has all been in either a Piper Arrow, or a Cessna 182. Even though one is a high wing 230 hp and fixed gear while the other is a retractable with 200 hp, they both felt somewhat the same to me to fly. Granted, there were slight differences, but mainly the same I guess, and similar to the Cherokee or Cessna 172 or Taylorcraft or even experimental I've all owned in the past. The Mooney, on the other hand, didn't seem to fly like anything I was used to at all.
So I'm left wondering what to shop for now. For the past 3 years, I've planned to upgrade to the Mooney and through online/paper research I've gotten to know Mooney models, specifications, etc. Now that a Mooney is probably out of the question, I'm thinking I'd rather get somewhere a little slower, but with making my comfort a bigger priority. The Arrows I've flown seem nice comfort-wise, and from what I've seen maybe even a Beech Sierra would do. Commander's I've heard are roomy...but I don't think I can afford a nice 114, so maybe someone with a 112 can fill me in on some details...? What else is out there? I've looked at Beech 35s, which I think are awesome, but I'm trying to stay under $160k or so and it just doesn't seem like that amount gets you far in a 35 these days. Also, please don't say "Comanche", just my opinion but I think they're the ugliest plane ever made. Not trying to insult anyone's comanche, I just don't like the looks of them.
 
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Not trying to be an A, but all that time to research and money spent without ever sitting in one wasn’t too bright. It took me one time to sit in one and realized I didn’t like the feel.
 
TommyG said:
Not trying to be an A, but all that time to research and money spent without ever sitting in one wasn’t too bright. It took me one time to sit in one and realized I didn’t like the feel.
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Yeah, I agree...feeling like a knucklehead for sure. I looked at quite a few on the ramp, and they just didn't seem that small until I got into one I guess.
 
hey, great planes aren't for everyone. lots of people putt around in slow planes. I fly my plane with one or two fingers but yeah, a solid, stable platform isn't for everyone. and I agree, making plans to purchase an expensive plane without ever having sat in one is a little odd to me.

what about a lance? it's a piper with a lot of extra room. maybe you can buy one of those without ever flying one....... ;)
 
I never had an issue, steep turns one handed. Most complaints are about the bungees on the elevators making them feel heavy.
The seating position, you either love it or hate it.
Good luck finding your next ride.
 
eman1200 said:
hey, great planes aren't for everyone. lots of people putt around in slow planes. I fly my plane with one or two fingers but yeah, a solid, stable platform isn't for everyone. and I agree, making plans to purchase an expensive plane without ever having sat in one is a little odd to me.

what about a lance? it's a piper with a lot of extra room. maybe you can buy one of those without ever flying one....... ;)
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Actually, I forgot I've got about 5 hours in a Lance, and I like them...but again, in this market, $160k buys a crappy one. And besides, its way more plane than I need.
 
WDD said:
Bonanza. Really don’t know anything about them, never even sat in one. Seems like tradition around here that it needs to be mentioned.
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Anyone who is considering a low wing retract should consider one of the many models of the Bonanza. Another possibility if the purchase price is the Bellanca Super Viking.

I wish the OP luck, the market for singles is getting pretty tight.
 
Yeah my time-in-mooney limit is about 2 hours. Mainly I get the jimmy legs after not too long in one.

From here, it's gonna be a Bonanza or a Cardinal I think. :D
 
If you’re interested in a Cardinal RG, my friend @Lynn Dixon can tell you all about them!

That said, what exactly is your mission, Tim?
 
asicer said:
Cardinal is nowhere near the same speed as an M20J, though. A Bomanchie is much more comparable.
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Oh, definitely. Was addressing the "I'll take a little less speed for some comfort" -- I think the Sierra is too far down that speed chain, and these are the next two "comfortable and kinda quick" planes that come to my mind.

I don't find Comanches particularly comfortable, but it's neither my money nor my tookus, so worth the OP's trying one out for sure :D
 
Consider this - the first time I flew an Arrow, I HATED it (my previous time in C172, DA40, and SR22). I thought all of the controls felt bad, heavy, out of balance. I think it took 8-10 hours before I really became ok with how they fly. Now with 40ish hours in it, it’s the same as the rest.
 
Mooney's aren't for everyone. I'm a larger dude who is comfortable in a C152, I'm a kayaker, I used to drive a Miata, etc. In other words not particularly claustrophobic.

I love the panel in my face, especially for IFR. Roll is stiff, which is not undesirable in bumpy IMC. It is improperly compared to a sports car. Maybe by seating position and higher cruise speed, but certainly not because of its snappy handling. They do fly well though and can handle a hell of a crosswind. They are hell for strong in turbulence.

IMO the popular C models are good planes but not all that fast. The Cardinal RG I had would cruise 140 knots on 10.5gph and had a useful load of 1006 lbs. A C model Mooney would not kick my a** in real life, and my passengers could keep their lower limbs.

The J (201) is a really good plane with Roy's speed mods. Is it way better than a 200hp Arrow?
I did my commercial and CFI rides in an Arrow , plus rented one for a while. Nothing to hate about it. The Mooney isn't so much faster that your contempt for its ergonomics and handling is worth it for you.
 
I have always wanted a Mooney, been to the factory a number of times. I have owned a 68 Cardinal for 30 years and wanted something faster than the old 68 177. It has the RAM 160hp and is an honest 110kts comfortable traveler. I found a M20E low time with a fresh engine a few years ago, took the better half out to look at it. I climbed in and she followed. She looks in the back seat and complains about how small the cabin is and how hard it was to climb into vs the Cardinal. So the M20E was passed on. A month later I found a 177RG, she loves the room and I like the 140kts . I might be about 15 to 20kts slower than the E model Mooney but she is happy and so am I.
 
Hahaha this cracks me up (err... sorry for your pain and suffering). But I had a very similar experience. Once upon a time, I decided I wanted to upgrade to an M20J, found one that was worth buying locally, went to test fly it, got in the cockpit in the hangar, and pulled the ripcord right then and there. Told the seller we didn’t even need to so much as taxi it for me to know it wouldn’t work for me. Like you, I *hated* being inside that plane. Something about it.

Fortunately I didn’t sell my plane or fly across the country to learn this lesson, but... I can empathize.

Anyway, I was totally going to recommend you look at Comanches until your last couple sentences...
 
Mooney are awesome planes on paper, potentially the best engineered SEP. But in practice they are a disaster to sit and spend more than 3 minutes in. Pragmatic design and going 6,000 knots on 1 gallon per hour have their limits when the panel is half an inch from your face and it takes 5 minutes of gymnastics to slither in and out of. Oh, and the staggered seating and the constant elbow rubbing on the window and the dude next to you gets old real fast. I know you hate the Comanche, so I won't recommend it, but Piper basically "copied" the Mooney and just made a more comfortable version of it.

bUt Al mOoNeY wAs a BiG GuY

whatever
 
A Sierra is nice, roomy and easy to fly, but it's not fast and I don't think you would find it much of an upgrade over an Archer...
 
For cripes sake you're not gonna "get" a Mooney in an hour or two and frankly you have no business drawing so many conclusions without living with one and giving it a fair chance. All airplanes are different and have their own individual character. You felt claustrophobic? Hey, Bob Hoover got sick the first time he went flying. Try adapting to a new environment.
 
Tantalum said:
Mooney are awesome planes on paper, potentially the best engineered SEP. But in practice they are a disaster to sit and spend more than 3 minutes in. Pragmatic design and going 6,000 knots on 1 gallon per hour have their limits when the panel is half an inch from your face and it takes 5 minutes of gymnastics to slither in and out of. Oh, and the staggered seating and the constant elbow rubbing on the window and the dude next to you gets old real fast. I know you hate the Comanche, so I won't recommend it, but Piper basically "copied" the Mooney and just made a more comfortable version of it.

bUt Al mOoNeY wAs a BiG GuY

whatever
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Chalk up another god awful post by our very own tantalum.
 
I had no problem with the mooney's cockpit, but if it's not for you then it's not. Al Mooney was a tall guy, which I think means the petals are way out there and that tends to pull the seat forward for shorter people. You can get pedal extensions to take a few inches out of that.

The roll is very sensitive, but its like that on a cirrus too, probably with every higher performance plane. I suspect that's why they have the auto leveler, although I wish they had put a disconnect for the passenger side too. You said it was heavy and it is, when the auto leveler is engaged.

95%+ of the time I fly alone, but it sounds like you're lucky enough that your wife flies with you.
 
The Mooney I’ve flown did have stiff controls which helped for IFR stability. Anyone know why most certified low wing aircraft have only 1 copilot side door?

You may like a grumman tiger or cheetah variant that has light control feel.
 
Rein Hart said:
Anyone know why most certified low wing aircraft have only 1 copilot side door?
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Tradition.
Up until 1926, the Model T Roadster only had one door (passenger side) also. And, since aircraft are made with Model T level technology in general, it only makes sense.





That, and big holes for doors complicate the structure and add weight.
 
RyanB said:
If you’re interested in a Cardinal RG, my friend @Lynn Dixon can tell you all about them!

That said, what exactly is your mission, Tim?
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Hey, forgot about the Cardinal RG! My co-pilot/girlfriend @KayDeeW doesn't like high wings, so they've been off my radar, but then again she'll probably put her pampered, bougie butt in whatever I buy. LOL.

My "mission": We do 99% of our flying for cross-country travel. We log about 100 hours a year, with only 2-4 hours local flights, with the remaining 96-98 hours going someplace, usually over 200 nm. Usually just @KayDeeW and I, although every now and then her younger son (who's pretty much adult sized) goes with us...I'd love to get something that can haul 4 adults "locally" and then also the two of us, with our fold-up bikes, on long trips. I should mention I log an occasional grass strip, here and there, a few times a year. The Cherokee wasn't really cutting it anymore for two reasons: it was a 140, so it struggled with just 3 of us in the plane, and it was slow (only 100 knots) so it limited our travel distances for weekend trips. I've also been flying quite a bit IFR, and the Cherokee was really limited in that regard as well: no AP, no approach GPS. Knowing I was planning to upgrade planes, I didn't want to upgrade the Cherokee panel.
 
Salty said:
It sounds like you were trying to maneuver with the wing leveler turned on. Don’t do that.
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I have a friend who had a Mooney that had a silver button on the yoke. Maybe called “Positive Control”? Had to push and hold to turn off the wing leveler. He had a piece of tape handy to hold it off when maneuvering.

I have a fair number of hours in Mooneys of various models and vintages. Including a few used for training commercial applicants and I think at least one for the IR. Nice, solid, fast and efficient planes. But would not be my first choice, for many of the reasons the OP gave. Like another poster, I owned and did not mind a Miata, and may own another. But “claustrophobic” is a good way to describe my feeling in a Mooney, and along with the “panel in the face”, single door and heavy handling, I’ve never considered owning one. But I do understand the appeal.
 
Each model has it's own ergonomics, different headroom/legroom ratios, etc. Speaking of 35-series Bonanzas, though way more roomy than Mooneys, the older models can be a bit short on legroom, I'd try to find some to sit in before venturing x-ctry to view a potential purchase.
 
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tawood said:
Then the pitch was very sensitive, while the roll was, well, just not there. I had to use two hands to roll the thing into a normal bank, literally unable to bank with one hand (I thought there was something wrong with the plane
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MooneyDriver78 said:
I never had an issue, steep turns one handed. Most complaints are about the bungees on the elevators making them feel heavy.
Good luck finding your next ride.
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Exactly, our J is easy one hand flying for roll, but it is heavy in pitch, and that's not so bad a thing for a travelling plane.

Tantalum said:
r have their limits when the panel is half an inch from your face and it takes 5 minutes of gymnastics to slither in and out of.
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I'm 6'2" and 215, and have no issues with my fit in the Mooney, and getting in and out isn't a big deal you're in shape and/or limber.
 
As far as the Arrow goes, it’s revealing to look at its performance compared to a Tiger. The Arrow has the advantage - albeit the added complexity - of retractable gear, has 20 more hp, and a constant speed prop. Yet they both go about the same speed at cruise - typically 130-140kts. Roy LoPresti was quite gifted in the aerodynamics department. Combined with the sliding canopy and light handling, I’d go with the Grumman every time.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
For a few bucks more you can have everything you want. You will never complain about roll rate again that's for sure. It rolls like an Extra.
2 doors, very large cabin, They are a little meh looking but not as ugly as a comanche. You can nap in flight and cut anyone off in the pattern at 160 kts too.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...model=SR20&listing_id=2392880&s-type=aircraft
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LOL I like your description, and naps in flight are important to me! But, I'm trying to stop the oh-so-easy temptation of going, "If I just spend $10k more, I could get a...", and I've set a hard limit of $160k to leave some money in reserve for upgrades, etc.
 
tawood said:
Hey, forgot about the Cardinal RG! My co-pilot/girlfriend @KayDeeW doesn't like high wings, so they've been off my radar, but then again she'll probably put her pampered, bougie butt in whatever I buy. LOL.
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While the Cardinal is a high wing, the wing is set quite far back, giving it above average upward visibility, especially nice in turns.
 
Tim,

I know you say they are ugly, but they are just a wide body Mooney with the tail on the correct way. Let me take you up for a ride in the Comanche, because everything you are saying screams Comanche. With tip tanks filled up, you get 6 hours of endurance, 900nm+ range, and still put almost 800lbs of people and baggage in the plane. Leave the tips empty, lose 2.4 hours/360nm but gain another 180lbs of stuff in the cabin.

And in my best Eugene Levy, "you think you hate it now, wait till you fly it."
 
Bill said:
...I'm 6'2" and 215, and have no issues with my fit in the Mooney, and getting in and out isn't a big deal you're in shape and/or limber.
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I think that is my biggest issue with the mooney, as I'm vertically challenged, so I have to move the seat waaaaaay up to reach the pedals, which makes the claustrophobic thing worse. Not to mention, even though I'm not fat, I'm NOT limber, I have a bad back, bad knees, etc.
 
tawood said:
I think that is my biggest issue with the mooney, as I'm vertically challenged, so I have to move the seat waaaaaay up to reach the pedals, which makes the claustrophobic thing worse. Not to mention, even though I'm not fat, I'm NOT limber, I have a bad back, bad knees, etc.
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OK, then, maybe a 112/114 might be the plane for you. Two doors, and the interior is like riding in an old school Buick!
 
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