I learned the hard way...

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brianwrites

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Brianwrites
I've been studying, reading, watching, digesting everything I can in ground school. I spent quite a bit of time on taxiing in a crosswind. It just DID NOT make physical sense to me that a 10-15 knot crosswind would get under my wing and flip a plane over.

How can the wind blow me over while I'm taxiing at just above idle speed away from the hangar or taxi ramp. I'm going too slow for the wind to have an affect.

I was on the runway, with my CFI in the right seat, airspeed was alive, yoke pointed into the quartering head wind, I take it back to neutral(rookie mistake),the plane drifts waaay right, I'm thinking I've got too much right rudder. I give it ALOT of left rudder. Now we're in a pinball machine on the runway. My very calm and capable CFi waits a few seconds until we hit 60 knots and we rotate.

I later tell him, "That was my worst takeoff ever." He replies,"Don't be so hard on yourself. That was your first 15 knot crosswind take off."

All of a sudden, it clicks. "Ohhhh, the articles and videos and blogs and apps meant taxiing down the runway?! That's when I realized most of the articles are poorly worded. I also realized I can never ask too many questions and in aviation, no question is a dumb question.


2.9 hours in the logbook. 36.1 more to go.
 
Welcome to POA.

What's your story?
I saw in your other post, you have an angel and devil on your shoulder so to speak with regard to flying.

What got you interested in flying?
Aside from the takeoff issue, how was the rest of the flight?

Keep posting. There is a lot of info here.
 
Talk to your CFI or other pilots at your airport before ever coming on here and asking for something.

Best of luck in your journey.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Talk to your CFI or other pilots at your airport before ever coming on here and asking for something.

Best of luck in your journey.
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And what is this place for, if not asking questions?
 
The second one will be better, the third time even better then the second.

When it's time you will do some touch and goes in the same situation and you may not feel the most confident but you will be capable! It's all about learning

Keep at it, hard to have a better time then flying!
 
brianwrites said:
How can the wind blow me over while I'm taxiing at just above idle speed away from the hangar or taxi ramp. I'm going too slow for the wind to have an affect.
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You don't live in a windy part of the country, do you?

FYI- the danger isn't that you are too fast, it is that you are too slow. Planes have fairly big wings and not a lot of weight- if you've ever left things outside during a severe Thunderstorm, you know the light stuff gets blown away first. If you are stationary on the ground, it's a problem; moving away from the wind at 50 knots or airborne, it's a non-issue.
 
Get your ailerons into the wind before you start the takeoff roll when the crosswinds are like that. Otherwise you'll always get squirrely near rotation and after lifting off.
 
brianwrites said:
I was on the runway, with my CFI in the right seat, airspeed was alive, yoke pointed into the quartering head wind, I take it back to neutral(rookie mistake),the plane drifts waaay right, I'm thinking I've got too much right rudder. I give it ALOT of left rudder. Now we're in a pinball machine on the runway. My very calm and capable CFi waits a few seconds until we hit 60 knots and we rotate.
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I had a similar experience, except the CFI wasn't there. This was on one of my first unsupervised solo flights, when I was beating up the pattern practicing those crosswind landings. I was in a light airplane (Tecnam Eaglet, it's a light sport), and either on takeoff or landing, I honestly don't remember which, I lapsed and didn't include the crosswind control inputs. With such a light airplane, I went skipping across the runway not unlike a stone on water. It sure woke me up, and I can honestly say that I haven't forgotten my crosswind corrections, at least on takeoff and landing, since. You probably won't either.
 
A good way to look at it is at some point before your normal rotation speed, the airplane is already flying, you just haven't started to climb yet.

This applies to landings too... it's still flying for a while after the wheels are on the ground.
 
Sounds like it was a good learning experience, don't worry about it, that's just part of the learning process.

We instructors are very used to and comfortable with airplanes headed in less than ideal directions down the runway :)
 
brianwrites said:
All of a sudden, it clicks. "Ohhhh, the articles and videos and blogs and apps meant taxiing down the runway?! That's when I realized most of the articles are poorly worded.
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No. Taxiing means taxiing, period. In some planes and wind conditions you had better have the controls in the correct position for wind even when sitting still. I bought my champ damaged after it went onto it's nose because someone parked it tail to the wind with the stick tied back.

brianwrites said:
2.9 hours in the logbook. 36.1 more to go.
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its not a race. Don't worry so much about hours in a book. I had at least 300 hours prior to solo.
 
brianwrites said:
2.9 hours in the logbook. 36.1 more to go.
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2.9 + 36.1 = 39:dunno:

Don't get hung up on your hour count -- and definitely don't set expectations for yourself based on it. There are plenty of good reasons you will not have your PPL at 40 hours and in fact if you do have it then (or even within just a few more hours) you will be an exception, not the norm. National averages are said to be somewhere between 65 and 80 hours. I don't say this to discourage you, but rather to save you from likely disappointment if you continue to believe 40 is a magic number.
 
Yeah it is kind of absurd to think you are going to be ready for the check ride right at 40 hours. As you are already learning their is a ton to learn in flying. Concentrate on learning as much as possible during your training. That's what's most important.

Important to note in your situation, as you increase speed you need less airleron as the effectiveness of each control surface increases with speed.
 
Nothing prepares you for cross wind landings like some hours in a tail dragger! Nothing! If you can master 10-15 in a champ, a tri gear is a piece of cake.
 
Yup. I thought I'd be done around 50 hours at most as I grew up with my CFI father as a kid and have been around planes a lot. A year later and 70+ hours, I'm just about ready.

A three-month break to sell and buy a house, a month and a half of holidays and a terrible sinus infection, a string of bad luck with weather, etc, have all added to the interruptions, to list but a few. In some ways I can't help but wish I was able to have wrapped this up six months ago but in other ways, I think I'll be a better pilot for it.

You're still flying during training and you'll be learning after the cert, too, so just gotta look at the Student phase as part of the journey to be enjoyed, not a race.
 
murphey said:
And what is this place for, if not asking questions?
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It IS for learning and exchange of ideas, but it is not a substitute for your instructor effectively imparting the basics. We see time and time again students under the care of a CFI asking something that truly, and properly, is best answered by the CFI they already have a working relationship with...

Or is best answered with self study and self directed learning, because its a homework assignment.

If you do your own work, and make an honest effort to solve your own problems, there are thousands upon thousands of flight-hours of experience here.

But it gets very old very quick when guys here are used as a google or wiki search engine... After the first 100 times or so the lazyness gets annoying.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah it is kind of absurd to think you are going to be ready for the check ride right at 40 hours. As you are already learning their is a ton to learn in flying. Concentrate on learning as much as possible during your training. That's what's most important.

Important to note in your situation, as you increase speed you need less airleron as the effectiveness of each control surface increases with speed.
Click to expand...

I took and passed my checkride at 42 hours, in a class B airspace environment. In a part 61 training setting. I had a month off in a 90 day period. I didn't solo until 17 hours... the last little bit of the flare just took a while to click...

My instructor felt I was ready at 40.. he didn't want to endorse at 40 because he felt the DPE would interpret that in a negative light.

Absurd? No. Challenging? yes. Can the average student pilot do it? No.

But it is not impossible.
 
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Doggtyred said:
But it gets very old very quick when guys here are used as a google or wiki search engine... After the first 100 times or so the lazyness gets annoying.
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Part of the beauty of a forum is you can pick and choose to what you wish to respond. You have the option to ignore that stuff.

If I were OP I might now be thinking, "This may not be the forum for me."
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
If I were OP I might now be thinking, "This may not be the forum for me."
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I wish I had that thought before I joined.

There are a couple good things here and there, but they're few and far between. That, and most of the the frequent posters here are aggressive, disrespectful, tasteless, and lack imagination... in my opinion, of course.
 
Seems 50/50 here.
I like student pilot forum because there are almost no egos but at the same time, less activity.
 
Doggtyred said:
It IS for learning and exchange of ideas, but it is not a substitute for your instructor effectively imparting the basics. We see time and time again students under the care of a CFI asking something that truly, and properly, is best answered by the CFI they already have a working relationship with...

Or is best answered with self study and self directed learning, because its a homework assignment.

If you do your own work, and make an honest effort to solve your own problems, there are thousands upon thousands of flight-hours of experience here.

But it gets very old very quick when guys here are used as a google or wiki search engine... After the first 100 times or so the lazyness gets annoying.
Click to expand...

This should be a sticky.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I wish I had that thought before I joined.

There are a couple good things here and there, but they're few and far between. That, and most of the the frequent posters here are aggressive, disrespectful, tasteless, and lack imagination... in my opinion, of course.
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To the best of my knowledge, not even North Korea forces it's people to visit the pilotsofamerica.com forum. You can participate, lurk, or abstain as you like. Fly safe.
 
Brad Z said:
To the best of my knowledge, not even North Korea forces it's people to visit the pilotsofamerica.com forum. You can participate, lurk, or abstain as you like. Fly safe.
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Agreed. The thing with forums to remember is that it will be next to impossible to please everyone. POA has some good advice and some not so great, but there is always good conversation here.
 
Doggtyred said:
It IS for learning and exchange of ideas, but it is not a substitute for your instructor effectively imparting the basics. We see time and time again students under the care of a CFI asking something that truly, and properly, is best answered by the CFI they already have a working relationship with...

Or is best answered with self study and self directed learning, because its a homework assignment.

If you do your own work, and make an honest effort to solve your own problems, there are thousands upon thousands of flight-hours of experience here.

But it gets very old very quick when guys here are used as a google or wiki search engine... After the first 100 times or so the lazyness gets annoying.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the Pilot Training forum is not for you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
If I were OP I might now be thinking, "This may not be the forum for e."
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i hope not. But the OP had arrives at the fundamentally wrong conclusion re: controls while taxiing and he needs to discuss it with his instructor, and then take what his instructor says to heart and not think "this can't possibly be right..."
 
Wow! What a lively discussion! I love it. Thanks for all the replies.
My story and motivation: My college mentor and Arnold Palmer. My college mentor started a small computer business and wanted to be home every night after business meetings. I saw him years after college at a conference and he said, "Yeah, I just flew in." To which I replied, "What airline?" "You don't understand, I flew myself in."

It blew my mind that the common man could get in a plane and fly himself hither and yonder. I kept up with him, he kept encouraging me to take it up. He now has global business a Piper Saratoga and a Piper Meridian.

Arnold Palmer, as I'm sure you know, was terrified of flying when he saw a fireball discharge itself in a plane while he was on board. He later took lessons to over come his fear of fying, got his license and has literally flown around the world.

People have dreams and fears. Both of which motivate us to succeed or fail.

I took an introductory flight. We climbed to 1500 feet. The CFI asked if I wanted to fly the plane. To which I replied, "Get me on the ground as fast as possible without crashing." I hated it. It was choppy, I had no control, I did not know what to anticipate.

Talked to my mentor who said, "What a coincidence! I hated my first lesson too. Look at me now." I found an instructor, had my first lesson we climbed through 1500 feet...and it was the most amazing place in the world. And I was flying the plane. It was still uneasy...but not as uneasy as the discovery flight. I quit. But went up again. The second lesson was uneasy, but not as uneasy as the first lesson...and so on and so on.

Everyday I watch people on you tube fly and I'm on several ground school Web sites. And now I'm on this forum where I look forward to reading from people with waaaay more experience than me who have empathetic, encouraging and very stern advice.

Looking forward to the journey. Sorry that was probably more than you asked for.
 
Doggtyred said:
I took and passed my checkride at 42 hours, in a class B airspace environment. In a part 61 training setting. I had a month off in a 90 day period. I didn't solo until 17 hours... the last little bit of the flare just took a while to click...

My instructor felt I was ready at 40.. he didn't want to endorse at 40 because he felt the DPE would interpret that in a negative light.

Absurd? No. Challenging? yes. Can the average student pilot do it? No.

But it is not impossible.
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I did not mean it is absurd to take the check ride at 40 hours because that's fine. I just meant that to countdown the hours like 40 hours is guranteed is absurd. Anytime anyone says they are definately going to be ready right at 40 hours I have issue with that. No one knows how long it should take to learn to fly. Learning to fly safe is what's most important!
 
brianwrites said:
Wow! What a lively discussion! I love it. Thanks for all the replies.
My story and motivation: My college mentor and Arnold Palmer. My college mentor started a small computer business and wanted to be home every night after business meetings. I saw him years after college at a conference and he said, "Yeah, I just flew in." To which I replied, "What airline?" "You don't understand, I flew myself in."

It blew my mind that the common man could get in a plane and fly himself hither and yonder. I kept up with him, he kept encouraging me to take it up. He now has global business a Piper Saratoga and a Piper Meridian.

Arnold Palmer, as I'm sure you know, was terrified of flying when he saw a fireball discharge itself in a plane while he was on board. He later took lessons to over come his fear of fying, got his license and has literally flown around the world.

People have dreams and fears. Both of which motivate us to succeed or fail.

I took an introductory flight. We climbed to 1500 feet. The CFI asked if I wanted to fly the plane. To which I replied, "Get me on the ground as fast as possible without crashing." I hated it. It was choppy, I had no control, I did not know what to anticipate.

Talked to my mentor who said, "What a coincidence! I hated my first lesson too. Look at me now." I found an instructor, had my first lesson we climbed through 1500 feet...and it was the most amazing place in the world. And I was flying the plane. It was still uneasy...but not as uneasy as the discovery flight. I quit. But went up again. The second lesson was uneasy, but not as uneasy as the first lesson...and so on and so on.

Everyday I watch people on you tube fly and I'm on several ground school Web sites. And now I'm on this forum where I look forward to reading from people with waaaay more experience than me who have empathetic, encouraging and very stern advice.

Looking forward to the journey. Sorry that was probably more than you asked for.
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That's awesome.

What is it that makes you uneasy? Heights in general, or was it getting knocked around?

What are you training in, Where, and when is the next lesson?
 
When I learned about quartering tailwinds via my King CBT ground course, I decided right then that I would always apply yoke correction if the wind is anything above 0.00001kts just to maintain the habit.

I flew with a CFI recently who chided that behavior and thought that I wanted to steer like a car. I didn't argue with him, as I'd (at the time) forgotten why I established the habit.

FFWD to flying with a buddy right seat (who happened to be a CFI) and guess what I didn't do? And was there a stiff crosswind?....you bet!
 
Jaybird180 said:
When I learned about quartering tailwinds via my King CBT ground course, I decided right then that I would always apply yoke correction if the wind is anything above 0.00001kts just to maintain the habit.

I flew with a CFI recently who chided that behavior and thought that I wanted to steer like a car. I didn't argue with him, as I'd (at the time) forgotten why I established the habit.

FFWD to flying with a buddy right seat (who happened to be a CFI) and guess what I didn't do? And was there a stiff crosswind?....you bet!
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Sure you were applying the correct yoke correction? I see people attempt quite a bit, rare they do it correctly. Becomes pretty critical in light tailwheels.
 
Heights are fine, it's getting bumped around and knowing there's nothing beneath me that makes me uneasy. I'm in a 172 in Atlanta. I know it has a glide pattern, I know that with no power, no propeller, no angels, it'll glide and executed properly it will make wide spirals to a suitable landing area in case of an emergency. I know that short of an inflight break up because of wake turbulence or heavy to severe turbulence, iced wings, loss of control, it's gonna keep flying. It's all psychological to me. Oh and I hate when my guts become gyroscopes. Never gotten sick in a plane though. It's become more comfortable each time I've gone up.

I'll probably go up this week. I try to fly with my CFI a minimum of once a week and am working in simulator two or three times per week. Would like to to fly 3 times a week, but my headsets won't allow it...because my brain gets in the way .

Thanks for the comments.
 
The hard part about taxiing in really strong winds (greater than 30mph) is turning WITH the wind. You may have to use the brakes. It is no problem at all turning into the wind. Also, if at a controlled airport, ask ATC if you can get a clearance to enter the runway from a downwind postion on the taxiway so you don't have to sit 90 degrees to the wind where you are most venerable. That way you don't have to stop at the hold line when entering the runway.

If you get confused about which way the ailerons should be, look out at the ailerons and visualize where the wind is coming from and put the aileron on the wind side in the position that holds the wing down. That is the fundamental principle.

I always prefer to look at the windsock for my wind information if possible that is clearer in my brain than getting the wind from the ATIS.

In a taildragger, make sure to push the stick FORWARD when taxiing WITH THE WIND!
I've seen taildraggers get pushed over on their nose from the wind.

Good luck with the wind!!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Seems 50/50 here.
I like student pilot forum because there are almost no egos but at the same time, less activity.
Click to expand...

I have found the complete opposite. The student pilot forum gets so little traffic that it is too easy for misinformation to go unchallenged and for big egos to go unchecked. There are egos here -- but the disagreement between them serves as the checks and balances :yes:
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I wish I had that thought before I joined.

There are a couple good things here and there, but they're few and far between. That, and most of the the frequent posters here are aggressive, disrespectful, tasteless, and lack imagination... in my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

I think you're embellishing a little(or a lot).

Every board has "that guy" or a couple of em.

Most people here are helpful and nice. Sure discussion gets heated but aren't we all the opinionated type? I think it goes with our personalities.

I'm 25 hours post-checkride and around 300 landings and am just now starting to feel like I'm getting a bit more confident with crosswind stuff. It's not easy when you're new. You've got 3 hours, I wouldn't worry too much yet;)
 
warthog1984 said:
Note:

Taxiiing in a 30mph wind using a plane whose demonstrated X-wind is 12kts is unlikely to end well.
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I'm not sure that's accurate.

I've been up in 22-23 knot winds and of course the tower gave me a runway that was only 20 degrees off the wind direction, but I still had to taxi to that runway, in some instances being perpendicular to the wind direction. Kept the control inputs where they needed to be, and didn't flip over:dunno:
 
IMHO it's fine to ask questions here, and of any other group of pilots you might encounter.

All pilots have good sized egos, don't let the occasional God complex pilot bother you.
 
When you're taxiing, climb and turn into a headwind.

If it's coming from behind you, dive and turn away from it....

+1 for whoever said get some taildragger time if you can. :yes:
 
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