I guess next month I'm done with Yahoo mail

You are free to believe whatever you choose. Reality is what it is and I actively seek out information pertaining to tech. I'm going to go with I'm more informed. I've posted several links supporting my view.

Consider me wide awake with the rose fragrance identified.
 
Google does not sell the content of your email to anyone. I doubt any other company does either. They use computers to scrape the email for signals they can use TO SERVE YOU and only you.


If pestering me with ads wherever I look is serving me, well then yes, they are serving me.
 
Google does not sell the content of your email to anyone. I doubt any other company does either. They use computers to scrape the email for signals they can use TO SERVE YOU and only you.

So getting blasted with ads is for me? The reality is that Google most certainly does sell data mined from the content of a user's email to their advertising customers, but indirectly. That ability makes Google's advertising much more attractive to their real customers, the advertisers.

The real issue with Google (or anyone else) scanning emails isn't so much the scanning because, as someone else mentioned, it is doubtful that Google has a malicious intent or intimate interest in performing such scanning. The issue that presents risk to users is the information that Google retains. Google may "stand up for users' rights," but they will only do so until they are ordered to turn over a user's information, at which point anything they've retained on you would be in play. If you think they'll close down the company before they give the U.S. government what they have on you, I can tell you that isn't how it works. Google has ZERO accountability and extremely limited liability for the users of its free service, but the data they collect on you may create a huge liability for YOU should they be compelled to turn it over (or should an involuntary release occur due to error or hacking). This risk is the reason why many large companies have data retention policies which specify that certain data be retained based on regulatory requirements (and only for the duration specified in those requirements), and all other data be destroyed after a very short period of time. I have no idea what Google's retention policy is, if they even have one, but I do know that their "All Mail" and labeling concept means that it's tough for even the end user to delete his own mail--scanning or no scanning.


JKG
 
If pestering me with ads wherever I look is serving me, well then yes, they are serving me.

It's a free service and they are a business. Ads is how they make money. Given that you are going to see ads wouldn't you rather see ads that are at least relevant?

I'm a male who flies real airplanes and RC helo's and likes to cycle. I would much rather see ads to renew my CFI online or rotor blades for RC helo's or bike accessories over tampons or hair care products. The advertisers would prefer that too. No sense in playtex spending money to show me a product I'm not going to buy.

Free services are not free, somebody pays. With google scanning my email to serve me better ads it's win win.
 
It's a free service and they are a business. Ads is how they make money. Given that you are going to see ads wouldn't you rather see ads that are at least relevant?

I'm a male who flies real airplanes and RC helo's and likes to cycle. I would much rather see ads to renew my CFI online or rotor blades for RC helo's or bike accessories over tampons or hair care products. The advertisers would prefer that too. No sense in playtex spending money to show me a product I'm not going to buy.

Free services are not free, somebody pays. With google scanning my email to serve me better ads it's win win.

facebookandyou.jpg
 
What are these ads people are speaking of? I have some gmail accounts and I don't see any ads.
 


Yeah, exactly.

I only have a gmail address because I have to. I have various business dealings with Google both for myself and on behalf of clients, and at some point Google made me open a gmail account. I use it solely for all the crap that Google sends me. No one else even has the address.

I also have a Yahoo account that I rarely use, and will never use once the new privacy terms go into effect.

Hmmm...

I think I may code an application that does nothing but send random nonsense scraped off the Web between the two accounts. Not gibberish -- that would serve no purpose. Just random excerpts of text from randomly-selected English-language sites. Maybe, oh, a few hundred a day, back and forth. Just enough to annoy both companies and assure that it costs them more to violate my privacy than they will ever earn from doing so.

-Rich
 
I remember in one of the early editions of "The Internet for Dummies", they had a section on PGP. One line that I remember (paraphrasing) was "The NSA can probably crack this is seconds, but if the NSA wants to read your e-mail, you have bigger problems than I want to deal with."

Consumer-grade video cards used as parallel processors, can crack medium encryption in a relatively short time.
 
What are these ads people are speaking of? I have some gmail accounts and I don't see any ads.

No ads in the emails. Google mines what is in your ads to control what ads you are shown on sites like newspapers, banner ads on free forum sites etc.

A friend of mine emailed me to my rarely used gmail account with a question of 'hey, I am thinking about buying a generator, what do you think about a Generac 8000 XL'. I just replied that I have no experience with the model but that I like the company'. I didn't google the thing or do anything beyond replying to the email. For weeks after that I got pestered with banner ads 'buy Generac 8000 XL generators here' 'Generators direct' or 'free shipping generators'.
 
No ads in the emails. Google mines what is in your ads to control what ads you are shown on sites like newspapers, banner ads on free forum sites etc.
Oh. I use AdBlock so I never see any ads on newspapers, etc.
 
Oh. I use AdBlock so I never see any ads on newspapers, etc.

Ha! So you are one of those freeloaders, probably DVRs shows on TV and just skips the ads. How can we have any nice things if we dont allow the advertising industry into our brain ?
 
No ads in the emails. Google mines what is in your ads to control what ads you are shown on sites like newspapers, banner ads on free forum sites etc.

A friend of mine emailed me to my rarely used gmail account with a question of 'hey, I am thinking about buying a generator, what do you think about a Generac 8000 XL'. I just replied that I have no experience with the model but that I like the company'. I didn't google the thing or do anything beyond replying to the email. For weeks after that I got pestered with banner ads 'buy Generac 8000 XL generators here' 'Generators direct' or 'free shipping generators'.

Exactly. But why is that 'creepy'?

No human read your email. A machine did. A machine programmed by Google to try and figure out what you like so it can match your interests with ads they serve you.

Again, given you are going to see an ad, wouldn't you rather see a targeted ad? An ad that fits what you might actually want to buy?

In this case they missed. You don't really want a generator. To that I simply say they goofed. It's still very new and I give them credit that it's very hard to program a machine to figure out human intent. I'm a human and I can rarely figure you people out. :)
 
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No ads in the emails. Google mines what is in your ads to control what ads you are shown on sites like newspapers, banner ads on free forum sites etc.

A friend of mine emailed me to my rarely used gmail account with a question of 'hey, I am thinking about buying a generator, what do you think about a Generac 8000 XL'. I just replied that I have no experience with the model but that I like the company'. I didn't google the thing or do anything beyond replying to the email. For weeks after that I got pestered with banner ads 'buy Generac 8000 XL generators here' 'Generators direct' or 'free shipping generators'.

And to do that, do you know what personal information was passed to Generac? None...zero, zip, nada.

All Generac does is pays for targeted placement of their ads. They don't get your information, unless you click the ad and fill out their contact me link.
 
Exactly. But why is that 'creepy'?

< snip >

In this case they missed. You don't really want a generator. To that I simply say they goofed. It l's still very new and I give them credit that its very hard to program a machine to figure out human intent. I'm a human and I can rarely figure you people out. :)

They miss quite often -- probably more often than not, in my experience. For many Adsense publishers (including myself), revenues immediately plummeted when Google starting weighting user histories in ad selection. They have about a gazillion pages on their own user forums about this, and many publishers (including myself) are in the process of moving to other programs.

As it happens, the ability for Google to use "interest-based advertising" on any given site can be opted out of by the publisher, which in my experience will roughly double the CTR and revenue. But even doing that, the revenue is still less than half what it was a few years ago, when ad selection was purely contextual, before Google started weighting user history.

Part of the reason probably has to do with the lagging economy, but I think the bigger part is that a lot more users have simply become creeped out enough that they're blocking Adsense ads. Adblock does not block Adsense by default, but users can elect to block Adsense or subscribe to a blocking list that includes Adsense, and I believe that more users are doing just that.

For most of the Adwords / Adsense programs' history, the ads were considered sufficiently polite and well-behaved that few users bothered blocking them. They also had among the highest CTRs and revenue of any ads, at least in part because both the ads and the sites they linked to were polite and well-behaved, and the ads were almost always context-relevant. The ads were exemplary of Web advertising done right.

Those days are over.

What you, Captain, are able to correctly shrug off as the work of inanimate robots, seriously creeps out many (or maybe most) users. This is especially true when the scraped content and the ads derived from it are not quite so boring as generators. Targeting can be very disturbing to many users, and even more so when the targeting touches upon sensitive issues.

I know a guy, for example, who got himself in some legal trouble about 25 years ago, did some time, fixed whatever was wrong with himself, and has been a model citizen ever since he got out of prison. But roughly half the ads he gets on Adwords / Adsense are from companies who want to sell him copies of his own criminal record.

He's shown me some of these ads. They are worded in ways that make it clear that the ads "know" that the current user has a record. He's also told me that some of the ads work his own name and location into the ad ("Joe Blow, your criminal record can be seen by your neighbors in Your Town, USA!"). I can understand how that would creep him out.

I cleared his cache and cookies, and installed the NAI opt-out thingy on his browser, but that doesn't work too well. I think part of the ad selection must be IP-based, because the ads also show up on other of his family members' computers that he doesn't use, but which are fed by the same router. There doesn't seem to be any way to fully "opt out."

Another thing that makes many users uncomfortable is geolocation. It can come in handy, or it can seriously creep people out, depending on how it's used.

For example, I would have considered geolocation very handy when I was searching for blue-rug juniper recently (Google is a great search engine if you're actually looking for ads), and Google showed me ads for local greenhouses that sold blue-rug juniper. But it starts getting creepy when the ads are for anonymous romantic trysts with women in the town I live in -- especially because most of the women in the ads aren't even good-looking.

But even in the blue-rug juniper case, notice that I used the words "would have considered it handy." I did that deliberately, because I don't like any sort of geolocation. Why? Because I have deliberately disabled, opted out of, or spoofed geolocation in every way I can think of -- but Google still knows where I am! That's why!

I even have an entry in the Firefox config file overriding WiFi-based geolocation and defining my location as an igloo in Nunavut, Canada. But Google laughs heartily at such efforts. There is no such thing as opting out.

The only way to hide your location from Google is to use a proxy server, a virgin browser (or private browsing using some other browser than Chrome), via a wired connection (not Wi-Fi), and then immediately block Google from planting any cookies as soon as you open the browser, and to not log in to any actual Google account nor use Google Search during the session. That will keep you private for a while -- maybe even until the end of the browsing session.

I personally take another tack. I randomly search for all manner of things in which I have absolutely no interest whatsoever, and which are as unrelated from each other as I can manage, throughout the course of every day. I do this deliberately, just to mess with Google, and to muck up their concept of me as severely as possible. Whenever I search for something that I actually am interested in, I open a proxy connection and private browsing -- just so I don't pollute my Google profile with anything factual.

Long story short, I play with Google. I secretly enjoy the fact that I have Google's robots scratching their heads wondering why I'm interested in such diverse things as: How many Webkins can fit in a cloud; whether there are dodo birds in the steeples of Westminster Abbey; whether Vladimar Putin wears boxers or briefs; where can one buy blue suede shoes; did Jesus wear Birkenstock sandals; do vampires fart; and whatever other bizarre things pop in to my head during the course of a day.

But let's consider the case of a semi-sophisticated user who is creeped out because Google seems to "know" too much about him, and is serving him "creepy" ads, which even know his name and where he lives. So he opts out of user tracking and interest-based advertising: And the creepy ads continue. So he downloads the NAI opt-out cookie: And the creepy ads continue. So he disables or spoofs browser-based geolocation: And the creepy ads continue.

What, exactly, is this semi-sophisticated user going to do once he gets disgusted with Adsense / Adwords ads that seem to "know" who he is, where he is, and what he's thinking, every time he gets on the Web? Eventually, he's just going to block them. And you know what? Even as a publisher, I really don't blame him at all.

Also consider that many families share computers, often without separate user accounts, which means that interest information mined from each user's activities will affect the ads seen by the others. From a publisher point of view, this is one of the reasons why "interest-based" ad selection doesn't work. From a user's perspective, it's just more creepiness; and people don't like being creeped out.

-Rich
 
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Expecting your email to be private is kind of like locking yourself in a soundproof booth to have a conversation over CB radio. Anybody with a CB can listen if they really want and nothing google or yahoo can do will fix that. Email was never designed to be secure, the protocol that transmits the messages server to server is in plaintext.

Facebook privacy? Facebook was designed to share information, the privacy features were tacked on as an afterthought. Don't post stuff you're not comfortable with the whole world seeing on it!

These corporations collecting data on you isn't so terrible. They don't know who you are by name in most cases and even if they do they don't care. They're collecting keywords and demographic data that automated systems use to show you ads for stuff you're more likely to buy. Yeah they have an agenda, the same one every company has. They want to make money off of you.

The real worry is the government starting to go after people for their political beliefs someday or pulling things out of context from your personal emails or browsing history in some sort of criminal case. My answer there is that we really need to get our government under control through more political involvement so that we have some level assurance they're not allowed to do intrude into these things or if they do, it isn't admissible in court.

In the meantime if you're really worried route all your Internet traffic through a service like tor and encrypt all your messages before sending. That gets you pretty good protection that even the FBI wouldn't be able to get through if done right.
 
Expecting your email to be private is kind of like locking yourself in a soundproof booth to have a conversation over CB radio. Anybody with a CB can listen if they really want and nothing google or yahoo can do will fix that. Email was never designed to be secure, the protocol that transmits the messages server to server is in plaintext.

That is certainly true, just like a postcard is open for anyone to read. But just as with a post-card, the logistics of its delivery actually make it quite unlikely for a third party to read it. After the card is in the collection bag, no station along the way has either time or interest to look at it and if the recipient has a lockable mailbox or PO box, the only place where it is vulnerable to targeted attack is secured. Same with email. If I send an email from a hotmail to a yahoo account, it is going to go two or three hops, unless the russian identity thief owns the server at the interchange center in Ashburn, he has no opportunity to put his hand in the mailbag. So even though the emails are plain-text while they are being handed from one server to the next, with the topography of the internet and if you email between the major network operators the odds of someone intercepting them along the way are slim (if of course you use your own hosted web service and find out that your hosting provider has been sold to a russian mobster, all bets are off)

These corporations collecting data on you isn't so terrible. They don't know who you are by name in most cases and even if they do they don't care.

If they put my name into ads, they do seem to know it, and they do seem to care.

The real worry is the government starting to go after people for their political beliefs someday or pulling things out of context from your personal emails or browsing history in some sort of criminal case. My answer there is that we really need to get our government under control through more political involvement so that we have some level assurance they're not allowed to do intrude into these things or if they do, it isn't admissible in court.

You know how they get that information right now ? From the private entities that have already been nice enough to collect it for them.

Criminal cases have been solved by extracting information out of mapquest searches, in other cases browsing history including 'how to commit the perfect murder' and 'killing someone with insulin' have been used in prosecution. To do so, it was never 'the big goverment surveillance server in the sky' that was used to obtain this information but rather the stuff that the search providers keep accumulating.

In the meantime if you're really worried route all your Internet traffic through a service like tor and encrypt all your messages before sending. That gets you pretty good protection that even the FBI wouldn't be able to get through if done right.

It would also mean that 3/4 of my emails would never get read. I dont think the FBI cares whether the mechanic managed to change the the leaking fuel-drain this week or whether soccer practice has been postponed for thursday. To use a an encrypted mechanism for that would be a waste of resources. I dont put medical or billing information into emails, anachronistic as it is, for that fax is still a safer modality.
 
The real worry is the government starting to go after people for their political beliefs someday or pulling things out of context from your personal emails or browsing history in some sort of criminal case. My answer there is that we really need to get our government under control through more political involvement so that we have some level assurance they're not allowed to do intrude into these things or if they do, it isn't admissible in court.

In the meantime if you're really worried route all your Internet traffic through a service like tor and encrypt all your messages before sending. That gets you pretty good protection that even the FBI wouldn't be able to get through if done right.

I'm afraid you are way behind. In 2009 the IRS started looking at tracking info on social media. By 2011 they rolled out new and rather sophisticated phishing software that trolls many social media outlets for key words. It's already been used for 2011 and 2012 tax evaders. Right now it appears to be politics neutral, but I don't know that, and even if it is, it could be tweaked to become quite politics sensitive.

I'm going to go to a private email exchange that I set up, and I'll be using some kind of pad cypher for important email. It seems none of the big players in email have any interest in providing secure email. ATT is offering a secure email, but it's fee based and designed for small business. I'm not interested in paying ATT more money for something I can do with a bit of effort.
 
Expecting your email to be private is kind of like locking yourself in a soundproof booth to have a conversation over CB radio. Anybody with a CB can listen if they really want and nothing google or yahoo can do will fix that. Email was never designed to be secure, the protocol that transmits the messages server to server is in plaintext.

Facebook privacy? Facebook was designed to share information, the privacy features were tacked on as an afterthought. Don't post stuff you're not comfortable with the whole world seeing on it!

These corporations collecting data on you isn't so terrible. They don't know who you are by name in most cases and even if they do they don't care. They're collecting keywords and demographic data that automated systems use to show you ads for stuff you're more likely to buy. Yeah they have an agenda, the same one every company has. They want to make money off of you.

The real worry is the government starting to go after people for their political beliefs someday or pulling things out of context from your personal emails or browsing history in some sort of criminal case. My answer there is that we really need to get our government under control through more political involvement so that we have some level assurance they're not allowed to do intrude into these things or if they do, it isn't admissible in court.

In the meantime if you're really worried route all your Internet traffic through a service like tor and encrypt all your messages before sending. That gets you pretty good protection that even the FBI wouldn't be able to get through if done right.

Personally, I'd change the emphasized text to, "Don't provide FB with any information that you wouldn't give to two guys named Boris and Igor who accost you on a side street in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn."

Facebook has a long history of security and privacy "lapses." That, along with the fact that FB's biggest investors are believed by every government on the face of the earth to be members of the Bratva and the KGB have less-than-perfect reputations, suggests to me that FB is a deliberately corrupt organization -- not one that merely experienced some security and privacy lapses due to its rapid growth.

Rich
 
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They miss quite often -- probably more often than not, in my experience. For many Adsense publishers (including myself), revenues immediately plummeted when Google starting weighting user histories in ad selection. <snip>

Yours is an interesting perspective. You are obviously immersed in Adsense and Google and understand the issues. Yet, you are still 'creeped out'. I've found the more someone is into it the more accepting they are. I thought, by and large, it was the casual user that got creeped out by it.

As it happens, the ability for Google to use "interest-based advertising" on any given site can be opted out of by the publisher, which in my experience will roughly double the CTR and revenue. <snip>

Wouldn't CTR be better with targeted ads? Maybe it's a quantity over quality issue. With targeted your clicks will be fewer but shouldn't more of them be converted to sales?

I know a guy, for example, who got himself in some legal trouble about 25 years ago, did some time, fixed whatever was wrong with himself, and has been a model citizen ever since he got out of prison. But roughly half the ads he gets on Adwords / Adsense are from companies who want to sell him copies of his own criminal record. <snip>

I think your friend is looking at it the wrong way. Not being shown links to sources of his criminal record doesn't make those records go away. They are still there for his neighbors to access if they choose. Me, I'd want to know they were there and exactly what they were.

I use Google Latitude. It allows me to connect with friends and see exactly where they are right now on a map. My friends can see me too. Google also provides, if I want, access to my geolocation history (not my friends).

Many think that's creepy. I look at it the other way...the info is out there and all the phone carriers will gladly give it away (for a fee) to LEOs. Hiding it from me doesn't make it go away. I think Google is providing a service to me to at least show me what is out there on me geolocation wise.

Another thing that makes many users uncomfortable is geolocation. It can come in handy, or it can seriously creep people out, depending on how it's used.

See above. Also, I think things are changing very fast. Social attitudes on this issue are evolving as we speak. (In fact, my talking about it here is my little part to help shape that conversation.) I'm convinced that as long as users see value to sharing their information they will continue to do so.

Would you tell a stranger where you live? No...unless, say, you just hired that stranger to deliver flowers to your wife at home or some other service where you derive VALUE from a person or company knowing where you live.

Like I said, users need to see value for sharing personal data. If they don't get anything in return then the creep factor goes up. Me, I see value in a bot scrapping my email and google knowing where I am so I can receive their services.

I personally take another tack. I randomly search for all manner of things in which I have absolutely no interest whatsoever, and which are as unrelated from each other as I can manage, throughout the course of every day. I do this deliberately, just to mess with Google, and to muck up their concept of me as severely as possible. Whenever I search for something that I actually am interested in, I open a proxy connection and private browsing -- just so I don't pollute my Google profile with anything factual.

Long story short, I play with Google.<snip>

I think trying to 'screw with a bot' is a waste of time. If it makes you feel better then by all means...

Also consider that many families share computers, often without separate user accounts, which means that interest information mined from each user's activities will affect the ads seen by the others. From a publisher point of view, this is one of the reasons why "interest-based" ad selection doesn't work. From a user's perspective, it's just more creepiness; and people don't like being creeped out.

Valid point. Except whenever I'm on the 'family computer' I log into my gmail account. Going around Google + is one of the first things I do and when I'm done with the computer I log out of Google. Others in my family (not the little ones) have their own Google account so they should be served their own ads. My wife never gets RC Heli Blade ads unless she sits down with my account open.
 
Yours is an interesting perspective. You are obviously immersed in Adsense and Google and understand the issues. Yet, you are still 'creeped out'. I've found the more someone is into it the more accepting they are. I thought, by and large, it was the casual user that got creeped out by it.

I can recognize creepiness without being personally creeped out. Blood and guts spilling out of a living person are creepy, but they don't creep me out any more because I was involved with EMS for years. What Google does is also creepy -- to users who don't understand it. To me, it's just sleazy (and stupid, because it actually manages to reduce revenue).

Wouldn't CTR be better with targeted ads? Maybe it's a quantity over quality issue.

No, it's that Google sucks at targeting. They're much better at creeping out users who wind up blocking their ads, than they are at tastefully targeting ads to user interests. There are many reasons why their targeting sucks, but that's for another discussion.

With targeted your clicks will be fewer but shouldn't more of them be converted to sales?

Conversion is irrelevant. Both Google and the publisher are paid when the ad is clicked. Neither Google nor the publisher give a rat's ass if the click converts to a sale.

I think trying to 'screw with a bot' is a waste of time.

So is catch-and-release fishing. I enjoy that, too.

If it makes you feel better then by all means...

I get serious giggles from it. :)

-Rich
 
Well, to each their own.

I don't think it's creepy or sleazy. Their revenues would seem to indicate they are at worst the 'least sucky' at online advertising.


Good metaphor, btw, about the catch and release fishing!
 
I too am switching from Gmail, but not for privacy reasons, but because they stopped allowing new iOS devices to register as Exchange clients to receive "push" email notifications. I despise having my phone and iPad poll for mail. Google removed this feature for new devices in one of their recent "clean ups". Between this, and the announcement that they plan to shutter Google Reader (another tool I use the bejesus out of), I feel like google is totally out of touch with what the customer wants.

I'll use them for search, but that's about it now.

Anyone know of a good email service that both pushes notifications to iOS devices, and also supports custom domains? I can find plenty that do one or the other, but none that can do both.
 
I think my problem proceeds from a false ideal. I want email to be basically as private as snail mail, and it started out nearly that way back in the beginning. Some/all players in the email game figured out that the messages were clear text, and were transiting their servers, so therefore they were ok with looking into the content. This is my fundamental flaw with the way I view non-POP mail services. Even the POP services are flawed because most of them are now virtual presence devices, and have little or no security around them.

I'm stuck in the -- 90s? I guess.
 
Funny thing is, that I just looked up all the port IDs for major POP servers, and they always use an SSL socket! So - the protocol is secured, but the messaging inside - isn't? I guess that's more for the delivery aspects, and not the content aspects. Everyone seems to be stuck on SSL 465 out, and 995 for incoming(some are TLS, which is fine too) There are a few email services that will allow encryption with TLS, but of course nothing is free in life.
 
Well, to each their own.

I don't think it's creepy or sleazy. Their revenues would seem to indicate they are at worst the 'least sucky' at online advertising.


Good metaphor, btw, about the catch and release fishing!

Thanks. Fishing metaphors are the gift that keeps on giving.

FWIW, my RPM is actually higher for either Bing/Yahoo or Amazon than for Adsense. But any of them are higher than for CJ, Linkshare, etc.

Almost everyone I know who's in the business reports that disabling interest-based ads dramatically increases revenue on Adsense.

When you disable interest-based ads, the ads are selected based on contextual relevancy. Although contextual selection isn't perfect (sometimes words with multiple meanings are misinterpreted, and sometimes the bot latches on to some relatively irrelevant passage and fills the page with irrelevant ads based on that passage), Google is a heck of a lot better at understanding context than it is at understanding user interests.

Also, if some stray passage in a page or a misunderstood word is throwing off the bot's contextual understanding of the page and triggering funky ads, the passage can be removed or the phrase can be reworded. There's nothing the publisher can do about interest-based ads, however, except disable them altogether.

Google's own user forums (or whatever they're calling them this week) are full of complaints from literally thousands of publishers who have been telling them the same thing for years. Google doesn't seem to care. They seem more invested in the idea that they should be using user history to select ads than whether the ads actually generate any revenue. It's very discouraging; and it's one of many reasons why I've come to loathe a company that I used to greatly admire.

-Rich
 
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How else am I going to find hot, horny single women in <insert city of internet connection here> if I don't get ads?

In all reality, you're going to get ads. There's no getting around that. Why would you not want ads that are relevant?
 
Google is a company run by geeky engineers. They (the people at Google) are not that great at understanding people, as geeks tend to be.

With that said though, what they are trying is a noble effort. The holy grail for them if figuring out what you want BEFORE you even know you want it. Ad men (brick and mortar type) have known for years that people don't know what they want.

I just watched a TED talk last night about this subject. Talked about spaghetti sauce. For years Ragu was crushing Prego. At the time everyone was trying to make the 'best' product with the idea being that the best would sell the most. Ragu was going for the best by making authentic, Italian spaghetti sauce. The companies would make a thousand sauces and have them taste tested to determine the best.

The guy Prego hired had a different take. Rather than figure out the best, try to figure out the 'bests'. He would have people not pick their favorite but rather rank all 10 they sampled. By doing that and plotting the data groups started to form. Turns out some people liked 'chunky' sauce while others liked 'spicy' while still others liked 'tomatoey' sauce.

Turned out a full third of the US liked 'chunky' sauce and NOBODY was selling chunky spaghetti sauce. Prego started making it and jumped to number one in the spaghetti sauce empire.

If you had asked people, "do you like chunks in your spaghetti sauce?" nearly nobody would have said they do.

Google is simply building on this. Nobody is going to say they want an ad...targeted or otherwise. But, if you are in the mood for a grilled cheese sandwich and are not even aware that you are and an ad gently informs you that the shop right down the street just happens to have award winning grilled cheese sandwiches with a picture of said sandwich with lightly toasted bread and cheese lightly dripping out of a razor sharp cut of the sandwich in diagonal corners you might be tempted to swing by the shop and satisfy your craving on the way to picking up the kids from school.

I'm positive Google doesn't want to annoy computer users and serve them irrelevant ads. They didn't want to serve that generator ad mentioned above because by definition the user was annoyed. It ain't a perfect science. They are working on it though and if they get it right ads will be better and far less annoying. If it's annoying that's proof it didn't work.

I still say give it time and I'm cutting them slack while they work on it. Change isn't something people normally like and part of the growing pains is the charge of 'creepy'. Honestly, I think ads for bra's and panties publish on full page newspaper ads is far more creepy...and yet. We are used to those. In time we'll be used to targeted ads. I'm not a betting man but if I had to wager I'd say they are coming one way or another. As usual Google is being a trail blazer and forging new technology to make our online lives better.

Told ya I was a fanboy..

:)
 
If you asked ten people, "do you like others reading and databasing your e-mail?" they'd say no... But Google found that a few like chunky advertising as a side-dish, and rose to number one...

Heh. Paraphrasing is fun. ;)
 
How else am I going to find hot, horny single women in <insert city of internet connection here> if I don't get ads?

In all reality, you're going to get ads. There's no getting around that. Why would you not want ads that are relevant?

Nick, not to sound too mercenary, but I'm more concerned about whether the ads generate revenue than anything else. And ads for horny, single women in the user's town tend to creep out a lot of users. And when they get creeped out, they avoid the ads, and my site if that's where they saw the ad; and they may even block the ads altogether.

You have to start with reality and move from there. If users are getting turned off by the ads, then that's bad. And a lot of people are turned off by targeted ads. This is especially true when they share their user accounts.

Now it's easy for me to say, "Well, they shouldn't be sharing their user accounts." But they do. And when Mom notices that 6-year-old Katie is getting ads for hot, single women because 16-year-old Bobby has been porn surfing, that's not good for business. Neither is Bobby likely to click on Webkinz ads because Katie was on Webkinz sites. Nor are either of them likely to click on SUV ads because Mom was looking for one, or on chainsaw ads because dad was looking for one.

Account sharing is one of the reasons why interest-based ads suck, revenue-wise, in my opinion. Ad blocking is another big problem -- and offending users by targeting them too openly is a big reason why users block ads.

Amazon is probably the only company out there that understands targeting. Their Omakase ads are targeting done about as well as it can be done, are among my best-performing ads -- despite being relatively bland and unattractive, in my opinion. I think it's because Amazon's scope is narrower. They mainly track users' activities on Amazon, during which users tend to be logged in, which eliminates the shared-computer problem. They also don't visibly geotarget, and the ads may be bland, but they're not visually annoying or embarrassing.

To me, that means that Amazon ads are less likely to creep out users, and are less likely to be blocked. They also produce more revenue -- despite the fact that the user actually has to buy something before the publisher gets paid by Amazon.

That's my take on it, anyway. I could be wrong. It's just what I've observed.

-Rich
 
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I just watched a TED talk last night about this subject. Talked about spaghetti sauce. For years Ragu was crushing Prego. At the time everyone was trying to make the 'best' product with the idea being that the best would sell the most. Ragu was going for the best by making authentic, Italian spaghetti sauce. The companies would make a thousand sauces and have them taste tested to determine the best.

The guy Prego hired had a different take. Rather than figure out the best, try to figure out the 'bests'. He would have people not pick their favorite but rather rank all 10 they sampled. By doing that and plotting the data groups started to form. Turns out some people liked 'chunky' sauce while others liked 'spicy' while still others liked 'tomatoey' sauce.

Turned out a full third of the US liked 'chunky' sauce and NOBODY was selling chunky spaghetti sauce. Prego started making it and jumped to number one in the spaghetti sauce empire.

Told ya I was a fanboy..

:)

The other thing Prego did is to visit a tried a true method for increasing the taste by adding sugar(Xanthan gum, or corn extract) to their sauce. Hey - it worked for Skippy back in the 60s, so it'll work for sauce too. If you think Skippy invented it, look at the ingredients for Ketchup(or Catsup). It worked for them back in the 40s.
 
Want your email to be as secure as regular mail?

Pay for it, like you do with snail mail.

Email and social media are tools, to be used knowing their limitations.
 
Want your email to be as secure as regular mail?

Pay for it, like you do with snail mail.

Email and social media are tools, to be used knowing their limitations.

Well spoken. Looks like that's where I'm headed. :yes:
 
Nick, not to sound too mercenary, but I'm more concerned about whether the ads generate revenue than anything else. And ads for horny, single women in the user's town tend to creep out a lot of users. And when they get creeped out, they avoid the ads, and my site if that's where they saw the ad; and they may even block the ads altogether.

You have to start with reality and move from there. If users are getting turned off by the ads, then that's bad. And a lot of people are turned off by targeted ads. This is especially true when they share their user accounts.

Now it's easy for me to say, "Well, they shouldn't be sharing their user accounts." But they do. And when Mom notices that 6-year-old Katie is getting ads for hot, single women because 16-year-old Bobby has been porn surfing, that's not good for business. Neither is Bobby likely to click on Webkinz ads because Katie was on Webkinz sites. Nor are either of them likely to click on SUV ads because Mom was looking for one, or on chainsaw ads because dad was looking for one.

Account sharing is one of the reasons why interest-based ads suck, revenue-wise, in my opinion. Ad blocking is another big problem -- and offending users by targeting them too openly is a big reason why users block ads.

Amazon is probably the only company out there that understands targeting. Their Omakase ads are targeting done about as well as it can be done, are among my best-performing ads -- despite being relatively bland and unattractive, in my opinion. I think it's because Amazon's scope is narrower. They mainly track users' activities on Amazon, during which users tend to be logged in, which eliminates the shared-computer problem. They also don't visibly geotarget, and the ads may be bland, but they're not visually annoying or embarrassing.

To me, that means that Amazon ads are less likely to creep out users, and are less likely to be blocked. They also produce more revenue -- despite the fact that the user actually has to buy something before the publisher gets paid by Amazon.

That's my take on it, anyway. I could be wrong. It's just what I've observed.

-Rich

I agree completely. However, ads based on the context of one's emails, on the other hand, are likely to be private, and targeted to the actual intended user.

Most people share computers. Not many share emails.
 
Want your email to be as secure as regular mail?

Pay for it, like you do with snail mail.

Email and social media are tools, to be used knowing their limitations.

I'm paying for email through my ISP, but my ISP contracts with Yahoo for those services.
 
You want creepy?

How did UPS.com know what kind of car I drive and the plate number?
 
In all reality, you're going to get ads. There's no getting around that. Why would you not want ads that are relevant?

I dont want advertising to influence my purchasing decisions, as such I want to have the ads that hit my eyeballs to be as irrelevant as possible. One thing I like about the print edition of the Washington Post, as I am unlikely to buy a missile defense system or a second engine for the F35 to start with, their advertising is just pretty pictures.
 
I dont want advertising to influence my purchasing decisions, as such I want to have the ads that hit my eyeballs to be as irrelevant as possible. One thing I like about the print edition of the Washington Post, as I am unlikely to buy a missile defense system or a second engine for the F35 to start with, their advertising is just pretty pictures.

:yeahthat:

Never even look at Internet ads unless it slips past the pop up blocker. And that's to find the button to trash it.

Cheers
 
I'm paying for email through my ISP, but my ISP contracts with Yahoo for those services.

Heck.... That's easy... Your ISP is a California based company... Yahoo is a California based company.... They figure Californians are dumber then dirt and won't connect the dots.....


They were right...:yes:;)
 
Heck.... That's easy... Your ISP is a California based company... Yahoo is a California based company.... They figure Californians are dumber then dirt and won't connect the dots.....


They were right...:yes:;)

I don't think Wyoming residents are all that smart either.
 
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