I can't make sense of this crash

Dan Thomas said:
Nope. If they come loose, which is really unlikely, the incidence would only change if the eccentrics were rotated, which is even less likely. They're difficult enough to rotate when adjusting the stuff. The adjustment is very, very small anyway, nowhere close enough to cause control difficulties. If the bolt and eccentrics came right out, the wing would tear off instantly. Those bolts are under shear load all the time and would be very difficult to remove in flight, too, even if the nuts weren't there.
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What are eccentrics?
 
Snowmass said:
Seems the most likely. Moody is a religious school which could provide a revenge or other motive by a fanatic. Both wings at the same time says a deliberate vertical dive and a last minute recovery attempt.
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Ya lost me there. Seems you’re confusing the incident with the 9/11 crash report.


Also, did you read the NTSB in the initial post? Three guys with families, two with babies on the way, wanting to have a career helping others...and then one of them does clearing turns at 7000’ before committing murder suicide?


FWIW:
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303
 
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This thread was recently quoted, and I didn't see where an update/final investigation was posted, so I found it (I think...pretty sure this is the right crash). From skim reading the above speculation, I did not see anyone forsee this determination....

Bird strike Accident Cessna 172R Skyhawk N24442,

The purpose of the flight was for the student pilot to make his first flight in his training program, with the flight instructor and an observer also onboard the airplane. There were no a...
aviation-safety.net
 
Country Flier said:
This thread was recently quoted, and I didn't see where an update/final investigation was posted, so I found it (I think...pretty sure this is the right crash). From skim reading the above speculation, I did not see anyone forsee this determination....

Bird strike Accident Cessna 172R Skyhawk N24442,

The purpose of the flight was for the student pilot to make his first flight in his training program, with the flight instructor and an observer also onboard the airplane. There were no a...
aviation-safety.net
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Oh, wow. That's wild.
 
Yeah, I have a healthy fear of bird strikes.
 
What exactly happened? How did bird strike lead to over control / over strain the control cables? Did pilot over correct ?
 
WDD said:
What exactly happened? How did bird strike lead to over control / over strain the control cables? Did pilot over correct ?
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Probable Caue: An in-flight breakup as a result of the airplane exceeding the structural strength of the airplane during a rapid descent that the flight instructor was unable to recover from following a collision with a large bird.
 
WDD said:
What exactly happened? How did bird strike lead to over control / over strain the control cables? Did pilot over correct ?
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Sounds like the bird strike resulted in a rapid descent at high speed, and the pilot pulled to hard trying to recover.
 
WDD said:
What exactly happened? How did bird strike lead to over control / over strain the control cables? Did pilot over correct ?
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I took that as the cables overloaded and broke on impact, meaning they were still connected and working up to that point. If a cable had come loose, it would have no tension so probably wouldn't have overloaded on impact. You're not going to overload a cable just by pulling on the yoke.

One wonders, though, just how the bird strike caused loss of control. There was no mention of bird guts in the cockpit, just on the windscreen. If it took out the tail that would make sense, but no mention of bird guts there, either.
 
From the blurry photo, there doesn't appear to be much left of the main cabin area. It could have burned not leaving much evidence behind. Its probably a miracle they found the bird remains at all, or else this would have been a completely unsolved accident.

I would likely guess the bird strike did not disable the aircraft, but rather one or both pilots. Maybe just long enough to point the airplane at the ground and overspeed, then either the student or instructor panicked and yanked the wings off.
 
A large bird could bend the tail or a control surface, break or jam the control cables - any number of possibilities.

Personally, I don't believe you could rip the wings off of a strutted Cessna if you tried. Consider the millions of flight hours with ham-handed students and barely-qualified CFIs at the controls. There is simply no history of in-flight breakups in this type absent a structural compromise of some sort.

C.
 
midwestpa24 said:
From the blurry photo, there doesn't appear to be much left of the main cabin area. It could have burned not leaving much evidence behind. Its probably a miracle they found the bird remains at all, or else this would have been a completely unsolved accident.

I would likely guess the bird strike did not disable the aircraft, but rather one or both pilots. Maybe just long enough to point the airplane at the ground and overspeed, then either the student or instructor panicked and yanked the wings off.
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It would almost certainly be chaotic to the extreme after a 15 lb. bird found its way into the cockpit uninvited. Whether a pilot was briefly incapacitated or just fighting with the sudden hurricane-force winds, feathers, blood, and possibly a very confused wild animal, controlled flight would have been an afterthought. I'm sure I'd flail around a bit, myself.
 
Dana said:
One wonders, though, just how the bird strike caused loss of control. There was no mention of bird guts in the cockpit, just on the windscreen
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The impact alone without entering the cockpit can do it. Especially such a heavy bird on a small aircraft. Have seen the smaller birds bring down larger aircraft with only a windshield hit. 10-1 the windshield broke and the resulting reaction move by the pilot flying more than likely upset the aircraft where control was lost then it was over controlled to failure.

Know of a few similar accidents, some not fatal, but most were to include an S-76 flying on autopilot that was brought down in 11 seconds by a 4 lb Red Tailed Hawk hitting the windshield. The Smithsonian solved that one too but more with DNA tests. On average takes a human 3-5 seconds to react to a sudden sensory input which unfortunately is enough time for any aircraft to get out of sync.

Heres the NTSB docket for the above accident:
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=97758
 
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"Probable Caue: An in-flight breakup as a result of the airplane exceeding the structural strength of the airplane during a rapid descent that the flight instructor was unable to recover from following a collision with a large bird."

But why the rapid descent? They hit a bird, nose dove, and pulled the wings off because they were over Va?
 
why the dive though? Wouldn't they be trimmed, relatively? I almost think a last minute evasive action attempt is more likely
 
It just had to hit the cfi in the face. The student was on his first flight.

Somewhere I have a picture of a plane in my FBO hanger that took a bird through the windscreen and splattered all over the back wall. Just missed the pilot.


Edit: found the pix

IMG_6156.jpeg

IMG_6155.jpeg
 
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Right, I could see a bird in the pilot's face doing it, but the only mention of the bird is tiny feather fragments embedded in the windscreen. They were able to do toxicology on the pilots, so apparently the cockpit wasn't destroyed by fire, you'd think they'd find something.
 
Dana said:
Right, I could see a bird in the pilot's face doing it, but the only mention of the bird is tiny feather fragments embedded in the windscreen. They were able to do toxicology on the pilots, so apparently the cockpit wasn't destroyed by fire, you'd think they'd find something.
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Yeah, I don’t know. That was a pretty massive impact, I don’t know what would have been found even if they were looking for something. Maybe the bird didn’t go through but still punched out enough plexiglass to incapacitate the CFI?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounds like just the portions outside the struts
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The point I was trying to make was that I don't think there is any possible combination of control inputs that would cause the wings to fail, inboard or outboard of the struts. It's a 70 year-old design with probably more fleet hours than any other GA aircraft. If it was possible, someone would have done it before now. Most of the suggestions discussed here - CFI incapacitated, student frozen at the controls, etc. would not and could not explain a structural failure of the wing.

C.
 
camorton said:
The point I was trying to make was that I don't think there is any possible combination of control inputs that would cause the wings to fail, inboard or outboard of the struts. It's a 70 year-old design with probably more fleet hours than any other GA aircraft. If it was possible, someone would have done it before now. Most of the suggestions discussed here - CFI incapacitated, student frozen at the controls, etc. would not and could not explain a structural failure of the wing.

C.
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If you get much above VA in any aircraft and pull the yoke to the stops, you will bend and break the airplane. Any airplane. The aircraft, for whatever reason, began a near vertical descent after the impact with the bird. Seeing nothing but brown out of the windshield will get the adrenaline pumping, and either the student or the CFI probably yanked for dear life and broke the plane. Based on what's left of the wreckage, that is about all we will ever know.

Keep in mind the report mentions an estimated GROUNDspeed of 117 kts. If they were descending rapidly, their airspeed was much higher.
 
The bird does not have to enter the cockpit to wreak havoc. The pic below is the result of a hawk hitting the windshield, breaking it but didnt enter the cockpit. 2 ATP pilots up front, full glass, 4 axis autopilot (engaged), and a digital CVRFDR. Took the crew 4-5 seconds to react which was too late by then. Very possible the CFI and student rode it down fully aware of their predicament like this crew did.

As to structural failure every aircraft has it limits. Plenty of reports of wings or tail feathers being ripped off in desperation.

1695937954338.png
 
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Matthew said:
Yeah, I don’t know. That was a pretty massive impact, I don’t know what would have been found even if they were looking for something. Maybe the bird didn’t go through but still punched out enough plexiglass to incapacitate the CFI?
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Good point, if the glass shattered it could very well blind the pilot.
 
From how I read the report the cables showed signs of being over stressed that could come from over maneuvering - exceeding control pressure limits.

In my mind unless you’re in a spin, if you basically pulled the power down and let go of the yoke the Skyhawk would get a good bit to stable on its own.

If you’re level or even in a shallow bank and get a bird hit, just doing nothing for a while might be the best option.

Not second guessing the accident victims - just trying to think of what I should do in same situation. Our local airport KRYY has buzzards - turkey vultures that sometimes hang around the approach and departure areas.
 
Dana said:
Good point, if the glass shattered it could very well blind the pilot.
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Yeah. So the CFI is out of the game, the student is on his first ride, plane goes out of control, student sees ground coming up fast and yanks back hard. Maybe.

It was a bad day.
 
WDD said:
From how I read the report the cables showed signs of being over stressed that could come from over maneuvering - exceeding control pressure limits.
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The overstress was likely caused by the inflight breakup instead of vice versa.
 
Live about 20 miles south of the accident site since the mid 60's. I have never seen a pelican anywhere in this area.

We are just on the edge of the migration path. They were horribly unlucky. RIP
 
Dana said:
Good point, if the glass shattered it could very well blind the pilot.
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While I've never seen plexiglass "shatter" in this context I have seen the results cut pilots. Below is the recontructed windshield from the accident pic I posted above. Keep in mind the missing pieces were determined to be caused from the ground impact vs the hawk impact. Regardless no shattering into minute pieces was observed or as implied above. Unfortunately based on my experiences I still believe the CFI was in the mix trying to save his and his student's azz during the event.
1695946749874.png
 
Exactly how did a bird strike cause the plane to become so upset that the CFI had to fight to try and save?

A bad dent on the wing or vertical stabilizer, shattered wind screen wouldn’t upset the plane to the point it would not be recoverable. It wouldn’t have caused the sharp 90 turn to the right.
 
WDD said:
Exactly how did a bird strike cause the plane to become so upset that the CFI had to fight to try and save?
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Its not the impact of the bird that causes the upset but the pilots instictive reaction to the sudden impact that causes the upset. Most let go of the controls and raise their arms to shield themselves. Or brace against the pedals. Or....

3 seconds later once they get their sheet togather they realize the aircraft is in a 90 degree bank or worse inverted which happened to a friend in a helicopter. Everybody thinks we'll keep our wits when something sudden happens but thats not what I've heard or read about. But I'm sure there are some that do in that split second. But most dont.

In the case of the helicopter pic above the hawk impact jarred both throttles out of the fly gate which caused a slight dual engine decel. The autopilot sensed a drop in altitude so increased collective pitch to climb. Unfortunately, at the reduced power output that pitch increase drooped the main rotor speed to less than 92%. All that took 5 seconds to happen. At that point everyone was along for the ride which ended 5.5 seconds later.
 
WDD said:
A bad dent on the wing or vertical stabilizer, shattered wind screen wouldn’t upset the plane to the point it would not be recoverable.
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The report said the vertical stabilizer wasn't damaged but I didn't see anything about the horizontal. Hit that with a 16# bird at 100 mph and I could definitely see it being bent to the point the plane is uncontrollable. Though the report didn't say that was what happened, either.
 
What is the best course of action if you get hit by a 16 lb bird at 100 mph? I would say just keeping away from abrupt sizable control movements would get you safely on the ground.

Even further, if bird hit is imminent it’s better to take the hit vs a hard maneuvering to avoid.

What say the collective? Other POV?
 
Unless the CFI was trained in upset recovery or aerobatics, it could have the CFI that pulled too hard watching the ground come up.

In giving upset training, people either want to pull too hard or not hard enough.
 
WDD said:
Even further, if bird hit is imminent it’s better to take the hit vs a hard maneuvering to avoid.
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Smooth pull up. Birds tuck and dive, as such, never dive the airplane, always pull up. Hopefully that leads to a strike on the nose or underside of the fuse, and not the flimsy plastic shield between that cannon ball and your most likely helmet-less nugget.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Smooth pull up. Birds tuck and dive, as such, never dive the airplane, always pull up. Hopefully that leads to a strike on the nose or underside of the fuse, and not the flimsy plastic shield between that cannon ball and your most likely helmet-less nugget.
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Nice tip!
 
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