Hudson corridor dilemma

acrophile said:
Thanks, but it's still unclear to me. Does circling the statue for sightseeing constitute a "local operation"? If so, is a transition to or from the fly-through SFRA altitudes permitted? The FAA course mentions transition through the SFRA on a clearance en route to Class B, but does not address entering the fly-through SFRA altitudes without a clearance, without intending to enter Class B.
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This may confuse you even more: Note that this is RECOMENDATION(as in, I guess you can do it differently). They do not address how to do it northbound.


Recommended Procedures for Circling the Statue of Liberty


If you wish to circle the Statue of Liberty in an airplane, be aware that the airspace immediately surrounding the Statue presents a particular challenge. This is because:
  • It is the most heavily trafficked sightseeing destination in the SFRA
  • It is the southernmost turn-around point for all local helicopter tour routes
  • Local helicopter tour operators fly an irregular pattern near it at approximately 500 feet MSL
  • It is the area where many local helicopter tour operators receive ATC clearance to climb into the Class B airspace for the northbound leg of their tours
  • Newark Airport's airspace west of the Statue starts above 500 feet MSL
To circle the Statue of Liberty, follow these recommended procedures:
  • If you are entering the Hudson River Exclusion from the north, consider conducting the flight through the Exclusion as a transient operation (i.e., between 1,000 and up to, but not including, 1,300 feet MSL) past the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. Then re-enter the Exclusion at a lower altitude (i.e., as a local operation) to complete the circle of the Statue. This limits the amount of time you are operating in the local airspace.
  • To complete the circle: o Do so at the highest practical altitude below 1,000 feet MSL
  • Circle in a counter-clockwise direction
 
Actually. I just re-read it. Based on that last recommendation and "you must" from my earlier post. I say, no, you cannot switch between local and transient altitudes in exclusion.. This is why they recommended this practice. Otherwise you will have to fly the whole thing as local
 
genna said:
Actually. I just re-read it. Based on that last recommendation and "you must" from my earlier post. I say, no, you cannot switch between local and transient altitudes in exclusion.. This is why they recommended this practice. Otherwise you will have to fly the whole thing as local
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But the "you must" has an exception for "local operations", which (plausibly) includes circling the statue for sightseeing. The recommended practice makes sense for safety regardless of whether switching altitudes is permitted or not. So I still don't see any definitive guidance as to what's allowed and what's prohibited.
 
Anymouse said:
Dumb question, has anyone published a GPS route through there? It would be nice to take workload off and let George fly while looking for traffic and the sites.
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No need for a GPS track. Just stick to the right side of the river and look out the windows. Its not rocket surgery.
 
neilw2 said:
Although flying IR in the northeast always consists of fairly complicated routeing, I have to disagree with it being a PITA. I find it so much easier to fly with a clearance when going through the BOS, NY, and DC terminals. Trying to route around the NY and BOS class B are kind of tricky. Unless it is severe clear and I can get up and over the Bravos in easy VFR I'm always filing and let ATC figure out how to get me around the mess of airspace.
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To me detours are a PITA. Philly and NY approach are really good about issuing bravo clearances to cross straight overhead at 6500 VFR pretty much anywhere.
 
Ye
Brad Z said:
To me detours are a PITA. Philly and NY approach are really good about issuing bravo clearances to cross straight overhead at 6500 VFR pretty much anywhere.
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Yep. They prefer you to go straight over.
 
You should circle the statue at 1000-1300. Below 1000 are the tour helicopters. And above 1300 is the Skyline traffic.

The Hudson is not as bad as people make it out to be, it's actually pretty harmless as long as you pay attention to your altitude and look for traffic and listen to the CTAF. Then again, I trained at FRG, so I'm not phased by planes coming at me from all directions. Just a typical Saturday morning. LOL. Although, most of the transmissions from the choppers are so noisy and hardly understandable.
 
Anymouse said:
1000 AGL is low level??
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Neil-deGrasse-Tyson-we-got-a-badass-over-here-animated.gif


It's low enough you should be focusing more on flying the plane then whatever else is occupying you to the point you need to put it on AP.

I fly quite low over water, much lower then 1k at times, but I also have floats hanging beneath my plane, 1k AGL in a land plane out over water is low level.
 
James331 said:
It's low enough you should be focusing more on flying the plane then whatever else is occupying you to the point you need to put it on AP.

I fly quite low over water, much lower then 1k at times, but I also have floats hanging beneath my plane, 1k AGL in a land plane out over water is low level.
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gorilla_beating_chest.gif
 
Lol, frankly if you were to lawn dart into the Hudson I'm still going to eat lunch, might even read about it over said meal, I got no horse in your race.

Simply said, might be better to fly the thing yourself at 1k and below vs letting George do it.
 
orange said:
You should circle the statue at 1000-1300. Below 1000 are the tour helicopters. And above 1300 is the Skyline traffic.

The Hudson is not as bad as people make it out to be, it's actually pretty harmless as long as you pay attention to your altitude and look for traffic and listen to the CTAF. Then again, I trained at FRG, so I'm not [f]a[z]ed by planes coming at me from all directions.
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No, you're not permitted to circle anything at or above 1000 in the SFRA. Those altitudes are reserved for straight-through traffic, following the appropriate shoreline, as charted on the back of the NY TAC. Also, 1300 is in the Class B (Skyline), not part of the Class E SFRA.

The whole point of the SFRA altitude rules is to separate the straight-through traffic from traffic that's doing anything else.
 
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You're correct. My bad, had a brain fart.

Here's from the SFRA guide:

Circling the Statue of Liberty
• Do so at the highest practical altitude below 1,000 feet MSL
• Circle in a counter-clockwise direction
• Be aware that local helicopter tour operators fly an irregular pattern near the Statue of Liberty at approximately 500 feet
• Remain especially vigilant for other traffic in the vicinity of the Statue of Liberty
 
I know it's too late for the OP, but one factor that wasn't mentioned was passenger sight lines out the airplane. For example, there was a recommendation to fly at higher altitude (say 7500 ft) a few miles east of Manhattan. With this being a northbound trip and the OP's wife in the right seat, it would mean that she would have just about no view of the city down through the nose of the airplane. Flying a few miles west over NJ would give her a spectacular view out her own window....particularly with a high wing airplane.

Similarly, there was a recommendation for a low altitude trip to fly the Verrazano Narrows (VZ) up the East River, then across Central Park, and then continue North up the Hudson. Problem with that is that the East River is narrow and even flying right up against the East bank leaves the plane too close to Manhattan for a passenger in a right seat to get a good view of the sights within several blocks of the river. They would miss the South Street Seaport, much of the Brooklyn Bridge, the UN building, and Roosevelt Island. Plus bypassing the Hudson River side of lower Manhattan means missing most of the Freedom Tower, Madison Square Garden, the Intrepid Museum, Macy's, and the Empire State building (which are all on the west side). Instead of going counterclockwise around Manhattan, go clockwise. VZ up the Hudson to Central Park, east over Central Park, then south down the East River, and then back north up the Hudson. It gives the right seat passenger a close up view of all the sights right out their window (including Central Park South with the Plaza Hotel).

If you have a low wing airplane there are probably other considerations so that the wing doesn't block too much of the view.
 
So. In the end, my wife basically said, "I want to get there as fast as possible." So, no sightseeing. We climbed to 9500 and did a direct from DMW to 1B9. 2.5hobbs with about 140-150kts GS. This took us over TEB and just to the west of Newark. FF all the way, no issues. Still a nice view of the entire NYC. So she liked it.

The flight back, however, was more interesting. The weather was turning to crap in PA/MD area, so I filed an IFR plan. Well, ATC didn't like what they themselves gave me as expected and routed me around NYC area. This was full new route after they finally found my IFR plan at all. Coordinating through RCO FSS and Boston Departure. Ended up sitting in a run-up area for 30 min waiting to get clearance and be released. 3.8hobbs with about dead wind.

Moral of the story, VFR is just faster.
 
genna said:
So. In the end, my wife basically said, "I want to get there as fast as possible." So, no sightseeing. We climbed to 9500 and did a direct from DMW to 1B9. 2.5hobbs with about 140-150kts GS. This took us over TEB and just to the west of Newark. FF all the way, no issues. Still a nice view of the entire NYC. So she liked it.

The flight back, however, was more interesting. The weather was turning to crap in PA/MD area, so I filed an IFR plan. Well, ATC didn't like what they themselves gave me as expected and routed me around NYC area. This was full new route after they finally found my IFR plan at all. Coordinating through RCO FSS and Boston Departure. Ended up sitting in a run-up area for 30 min waiting to get clearance and be released. 3.8hobbs with about dead wind.

Moral of the story, VFR is just faster.
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Ha Ha, that sounds like my wife. Me: "Wanna fly the river?" Her: "no let's just get there"

She never wants to stop at "south of the Border", "Foamhenge" or to see the worlds largest foil ball either.

And yes, I've learned that flying IFR is great, but in the northeast, is always going to add some headache. But when you need to fly IFR, you need to fly IFR.
 
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