Hudson corridor dilemma

genna

genna

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I'm flying from Maryland(KDMW) to Boston(1B9) this Sat with my wife(returning Sun), and I have a dilemma that I'm not sure what to do about.

My original plan was to file IFR at 9000ft and just get there(Cessna 172). Forecast looked rainy and that was that. But now the forecast for Sat is rather nice and I would love to show my wife NYC from the bird's eye view. She's not a big GA flyer and this entire trip is making her uneasy, but I figure the view should help.

I just don't know how best to approach it.
1. File IFR closer to Manhattan(V6 or V214) at lower altitude(3000?). Or request lower altitude in-route - maybe I get it? There is a strong tailwind so I'd rather stay high the rest of the way/
2. Go FF(or cancel IFR with NY Center) and request B transition? with a fallback plan to
3. Use Hudson SFRA? It's very busy, isn't it?

This would be a little easier to do on the way back, but the forecast looks iffier for Sunday and we may hit Block Island on the way back if the weather holds up.

I've never flown in NYC area. VFR or IFR.

We should be transitioning NYC around 11am

Any thoughts?
 
FWIW, I overflew NYC last summer at 10.5 and even looking down through a scattered layer, got quite and awesome view of the scope and majesty of NYC. And had none of the stress of trying to fly the flyway.

I would consider doing that on a long xctry, especially if your passengers are uncomfortable.
 
File then cancel once you get closer to the Hudson SFRA and get FF through the river. Just because you file something closer, doesn't mean you'll get it.
 
I flew KGAI-44N a couple of years ago. You can fly the exclusion and talk on CTAF or fly the skyline route and talk to ATC.

I flew the exclusion. There was some helicopter traffic, but they were mostly below me (local ops) or above me (skyline route).

If I had a do-over and conditions permitted, I'd just fly VFR w/ FF and go over the Philly and NYC bravos and keep the tailwinds.

I suspect an uneasy non-pilot passenger would prefer 7500' or 9500' to 1200'.
 
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On a nice day Manhattan looks spectacular from 9,500'. I'd just fly over the top, slightly off (to the east) so you can get the best oblique view. IFR may cause you to be in the clouds at the wrong time so I wouldn't do that unless no other choice.
 
I'd stay up high. NYC looks more spectacular from 9,500' than from within the corridor.
 
RotorDude said:
On a nice day Manhattan looks spectacular from 9,500'. I'd just fly over the top, slightly off (to the east) so you can get the best oblique view. IFR may cause you to be in the clouds at the wrong time so I wouldn't do that unless no other choice.
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East over Long Island? or West over NJ?
 
I get New Jersey shore direct JFK over JFK ,at 5500 VFR on a regular basis. Being a small single. Then over the sound up to Ma.
 
genna said:
East over Long Island? or West over NJ?
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Slightly east towards Long Island. Try to get about 45 degrees down angle to midtown, so at 9,500' it would be about 2 miles, but anything from 2-5 miles should work. At 9,500' you are well above the Bravo, so you can be anywhere you want for the best view, and even circle if you feel like it. I would highly recommend flight following, however. ATC will be very nice and accommodating, and would just want you to maintain your altitude and let them know your intentions well in advance.
 
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Last time I did this North to South, I flew the Hudson exclusion (local, 600'-1000') then landed in Trenton. Inbound, I told tower I was ready for my IFR clearance to KGAI - landed then got it in the time it took to taxi back to the runway.

But - if your wife's queasy about it, you probably want to choose the thing you feel most confident about - that'll help you and her. But the exclusion is a thing of beauty, I highly recommend it.

DO watch for game-day TFRs that block the exclusion in the early afternoons.
 
Either way you choose, get up to the jersey coast. Drop down to 1000 to 1300. Do the exclusion. Communicate on the designated frequency. It's really not that big of a deal. But worth it to fly down that low and see. She will enjoy it much more than you will. Then when you get up to alpine towers break off and head to Boston. I have done the exclusion and inside the bravo 10 times in the past year. Saturday the they might not let you in the bravo due to workload, but you can always try. Seeing the city from high up is nice, but not an experience.
 
Attempted it when I got my Private many moons ago at McGuire AFB Aero Club. Got up in the vicinity of the statue and chickened out. :(
 
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To add to the chorus last year going from ACY in Jersey to BVY (a little north of Boston) I flew directly over Manhattan VFR at 7,500 while on flight following. NY approach was great and just asked me to let them know when I wanted to turn. Got a great view of the city, central park, the lady, etc.

I have yet to do the full skyline route but I plan on doing it this summer
 
I've taken off many times from HPN (White Plains) on a departure (rwy 16 I think it is) that almost parallels Manhattan to the west in NJ. What a view, and incredible sight all those buildings. Departing LGA a few times got a nice view of Central Park and Manhattan.
 
I don't know how likely ATC is to give you a good view if you're IFR. If you're VFR, you have a choice between the Class E SFRA or the (slightly higher) Class B Skyline route. Skyline is a bit less stressful because it's controlled airspace. But there's no guarantee of getting a Skyline clearance, so be prepared to fly the SFRA as a backup plan.

If you do the Skyline route, you may be able to cross Manhattan at Central Park (which is really fun) and proceed eastward. If so, ATC will probably clear you directly over the LGA tower, then over the south stanchion of the Whitestone or Throgs Neck bridge. It's a good idea to practice the route with Google Earth to familiarize yourself in advance with the view of those landmarks.
 
I do the corridor all the time.. I fly from a local field. My field (Class D) usually will get me a squawk on the ground and hand me off fairly quickly.
On a few occasions they couldn't but in that instance they just told me "Contact Newark Tower" a minute or so after take off.. Newark is pretty
"rigid" about having you right over the numbers when you're headed towards the Hudson.
 
I just flew over at 8500 last week coming back from CT on a rescue flight - on a clear day up higher gives a broader view and less hassle for you to worry about traffic.
 
If you come IFR you're going to be sent of JFK at about 5000 I think then down V16 slightly off the coast of NJ. Unless you have complimented instruments and then you can go direct to your destination.

Even that route gives you a pretty nice view of things unless you're over/in the clouds
 
Didn't know about Skyline route. Nice. After reading this and watching some videos on the youtube, I like the Skyline option with Central Park crossing to the east, with exclusion as a backup. It'll probably add about 30 min to our flight. So, I'll give my wife a choice. Smooth, fast up on top with broad view. Or slow, over water, maybe bumpy up-close and personal with Manhattan.
 
genna said:
Didn't know about Skyline route. Nice. After reading this and watching some videos on the youtube, I like the Skyline option with Central Park crossing to the east, with exclusion as a backup. It'll probably add about 30 min to our flight. So, I'll give my wife a choice. Smooth, fast up on top with broad view. Or slow, over water, maybe bumpy up-close and personal with Manhattan.
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Enjoy! (The Central Park crossing has lower probability of approval than the Skyline route itself, so be prepared to continue further north up the Hudson.)
 
Just north of NYC and south of Newburgh on the Hudson is the US Military Academy if interested.
 
What ever you do, watch out for those A320 amphibs coming in low over the GWB for a nice power-off water landing.
 
frfly172 said:
I get New Jersey shore direct JFK over JFK ,at 5500 VFR on a regular basis. Being a small single. Then over the sound up to Ma.
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That is very typical routing. ATC seems to like taking GA planes over JFK at 5500 to 7500 feet.
 
They are pretty good about clearance through JFK at 5500 and above. That's been my experience.
 
drotto said:
That is very typical routing. ATC seems to like taking GA planes over JFK at 5500 to 7500 feet.
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Yep. I fly VFR over the Bravo at least once a week and they like 5.5 eastbound over Sandy Hook and 6.5 westbound. They have no problem taking you on top of JFK.
 
The corridor isnt that cosmic. Stay at your altitude, report on the CTAF, and keep an eye out.
 
If she is uneasy about the trip stay high and get a nice view. I fly the corridor quite frequently and its far and few between that you will get a nice smooth ride. Down by the city its not to bad but after you get to the GWB try and talk to NY approach 126.4 and request a climb because the cliffs by alpine tower certainly make the plane rock and roll.
 
drotto said:
That is very typical routing. ATC seems to like taking GA planes over JFK at 5500 to 7500 feet.
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If you think about it, that's a safe and efficient way to do it. Departures are just taking off, so they relatively low, and arrivals the same. ATL approach does that too, and I suspect many do.
 
Be a man. Get down with the helicopters and do a loop around the lady a few times...
 
IFR in the northeast is always a PITA. Go with flight following from DWM, set your GPS direct for "APPLE", fly the skyline route talking to EWR and LGA, then once you pass the Tappan Zee bridge ("FEMDU"), climb and continue your trip on FF to your destination.

You can make it more complicated and try to coordinate a "VZ -> east river -> Central Park (south of the reservoir) to Skyline continue northbound" detour. It's probably a bit more challenging for your first trip up the Hudson corridor though.
 
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UngaWunga said:
Get down with the helicopters and do a loop around the lady a few times[.]
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Do the SFRA rules allow transitions between the local-ops altitudes and the fly-through altitudes? It would make sense to prohibit that, but the wording doesn't explicitly address the question.
 
Dumb question, has anyone published a GPS route through there? It would be nice to take workload off and let George fly while looking for traffic and the sites.
 
acrophile said:
Do the SFRA rules allow transitions between the local-ops altitudes and the fly-through altitudes? It would make sense to prohibit that, but the wording doesn't explicitly address the question.
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from FAASafety Course (bolded by me:

In addition, if you are transiting the area within the Hudson River Exclusion, but not conducting any local area operations, you must transit the Hudson River Exclusion at or above an altitude of 1,000 feet MSL up to, but not including, the floor of the overlying Class B airspace (1,300 feet MSL). In this situation, you should:

• Not climb or descend or make significant heading or altitude changes

• Be aware that some aircraft may transit through these altitudes from below in order to enter Class B airspace after receiving a clearance from ATC, most often in the vicinity of the Statue of Liberty
 
Brad Z said:
IFR in the northeast is always a PITA.
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Although flying IR in the northeast always consists of fairly complicated routeing, I have to disagree with it being a PITA. I find it so much easier to fly with a clearance when going through the BOS, NY, and DC terminals. Trying to route around the NY and BOS class B are kind of tricky. Unless it is severe clear and I can get up and over the Bravos in easy VFR I'm always filing and let ATC figure out how to get me around the mess of airspace.
 
All my real IFR issues have been north of JFK. Your choices really are Straight over JFK, down LI Sound and zig zag over CT or go half way out into Pennsylvania and then turn almost 90 degrees due east. VFR is simpler. If you go IAD SAX BOS you pretty much miss all the class B airspace and it's hardly a bend in the route (less than 4 miles difference in total distance).
 
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I vote going via the Class Bravo, only once in the past 30 or so times I've done it in the past year have I gotten turned down.
 
Airline I flew for had flights from ATL to HPN jut north of NYC. South of the NYC and JFK we'd turn east and fly about halfway across Long Island, turn north to about the northern shoreline of L.I. and then fly up the L.I. Sound to HPN. Easily added 20-30' more to the enroute time.
 
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genna said:
from FAASafety Course (bolded by me:

In addition, if you are transiting the area within the Hudson River Exclusion, but not conducting any local area operations, you must transit the Hudson River Exclusion at or above an altitude of 1,000 feet MSL up to, but not including, the floor of the overlying Class B airspace (1,300 feet MSL). In this situation, you should:

• Not climb or descend or make significant heading or altitude changes

• Be aware that some aircraft may transit through these altitudes from below in order to enter Class B airspace after receiving a clearance from ATC, most often in the vicinity of the Statue of Liberty
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Thanks, but it's still unclear to me. Does circling the statue for sightseeing constitute a "local operation"? If so, is a transition to or from the fly-through SFRA altitudes permitted? The FAA course mentions transition through the SFRA on a clearance en route to Class B, but does not address entering the fly-through SFRA altitudes without a clearance, without intending to enter Class B.
 
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