Everskyward
Experimenter
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- Mar 19, 2005
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- 33,448
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Display name:
Everskyward
To me it's the same thing so it's best to use what's easiest for you to remember.
How to get killed an emergency
- Thread starter DavidWhite
- Start date
steingar
Taxi to Parking
This is why the guy is right. Coming back to my class Delta home drone one sunny day, the gremlins got the bast of my radios. In dealing with it, I catch my airspeed degrading, and remembered crew management resources. I tossed the mike to my passenger (the long-suffering Mrs. Steingar), told her to tell the tower we were landing, and flew the airplane.
Even in our airplanes we can do these things. Complain all you like, the guy is right. And if more people thought of their parachutes as just another tool to use, rather than a last ditch option if all goes to hell, fewer people would die in airplanes.
azure
Final Approach
Maybe. I only watched the video once, but I thought the "R" meant it was a private field (i.e., "R" on the sectional, not the runway itself). I figured that was why the GPS didn't have it in the database. Most private fields are named though, so unless he didn't know the name, it seems weird he wouldn't try to give them that information.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I just saw it again, he specifically said he was landing at an airport with an R on the rwy. Maybe that's his way of describing a private airport shown on the sectional? I can't make too big a deal out of that since it's just a training scenario and not a real-life deal.
My engine-out training included the ABCD checklist: Airspeed (best glide), Best place to land, Checklist for engine re-start or diagnosis, Ditch preparation. I was not taught that the first thing to do as part of the "B" section was to turn, just to be aware that the best place to land might be behind you. Is there some forward visibility issues on the Cirrus when it's put into best-glide attitude? Maybe you can't see in front of you so a turn would be a good thing?
I don't know - without a BRS on any of the planes I fly, I don't have that option and that will make my decision tree different than his.
My engine-out training included the ABCD checklist: Airspeed (best glide), Best place to land, Checklist for engine re-start or diagnosis, Ditch preparation. I was not taught that the first thing to do as part of the "B" section was to turn, just to be aware that the best place to land might be behind you. Is there some forward visibility issues on the Cirrus when it's put into best-glide attitude? Maybe you can't see in front of you so a turn would be a good thing?
I don't know - without a BRS on any of the planes I fly, I don't have that option and that will make my decision tree different than his.
jtheune
Ejection Handle Pulled
I have to disagree with your comment abut telling passengers not to use the chute. It's there for a reason and telling non pilots not to use it but rather to act as pilots is a mistake. The chances of landing on something bad while under the chute and having that landing hurt you is much less then the likelihood of a none pilot being able to land a plane.
alfadog
Final Approach
I like my chances better with my 11-year-old son following ground instruction than the chances with the 'chute. Assuming the airplane has fuel, is VFR, and flying well - all realistic assumptions in my case.
Here is some food for thought (and contrast it with the 80-year-old woman that was talked down recently in Cessna 414):
To Pull or Not to Pull
Similar to a Cirrus, the rate of descent of a Skylane without power, flaps up is about 800 feet per minute. According to BRS, the parachute manufacturer, and NTSB findings, the Cirrus rate of descent beneath a parachute is at least double, between 1,600 and 1,800 feet per minute.
Engine-out Descent Rate
Cirrus Under Parachute 1,600 fpm Uncontrolled
Cessna Glide 800 fpm Controllable
Incidentally, when Cessna designed the fowler-type flaps for the Skyhawk, they were called "Paralift" flaps. "Paralift" flaps substantially lower the stalling speed (to more than 20 knots less than that of a Cirrus). They also provide a gentler landing.
So, what if the pilot becomes incapacitated? Then what?
In a Cirrus, the passenger must shut off power to the engine, and follow the instructions on the emergency placard to activate the parachute. A passenger in a Cessna can also shut off power by pulling a big red knob, then turning the elevator trim wheel full up to attain best glide speed. With a Cessna, there remains an opportunity to steer the plane to avoid injury to people on the ground as much as possible.
Pulling the parachute has serious risks. The aircraft's rate of descent under the parachute is high. Ground impact forces are severe. Cirrus warns that the decision to deploy the parachute should not be made lightly because parachute deployment may result in "severe injury or death to the aircraft occupants."
The Cirrus, like every aircraft, comes with a Pilot Operating Handbook. That's the "bible" that the pilot is supposed to follow. The emergency checklist for an "engine out" scenario does not mention the parachute system:
Forced Landing (Engine Out): If all attempts to restart the engine fail and a forced landing is imminent, select a suitable field and prepare for the landing.
A suitable field should be chosen as early as possible so that maximum time will be available to plan and execute the landing. . .
The checklist then sets forth the 12-step "forced landing" checklist. No mention of the parachute, anywhere.A suitable field should be chosen as early as possible so that maximum time will be available to plan and execute the landing. . .
In the back of the Handbook, there is a separate section on the use of the parachute. This section lays out various scenarios in which the pilot should consider deploying the parachute, such as after a mid-air collision, aircraft structural failure, or loss of aircraft control
- And finally, and yes, I know there are plenty of claimed saves for the CAP system:
A businessman and his two teenage daughters died in a plane crash yesterday afternoon after the parachute failed to slow the craft down.
Ray Harris and girls Ramie and Shey perished, along with a man believed to be the co-pilot, after the single-engined Cirrus-SR2 plummeted into a farm field near the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake.
It shattered into several pieces, killing all on board instantly, while on its way from Marion, Indiana to Wheaton, Illinois, where Shey, the eldest, attended college.
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Skylane81E
Final Approach
It should also be noted that the plane is built to absorb that energy, from the landing gear to the seats Cirrus Design thought it through.
zaitcev
En-Route
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Pete Zaitcev
They would've be just as dead in your low-stalling Cessna, because it was a VFR-into-IMC. Cirrus haters really are losing the grip on reality.
alfadog
Final Approach
Except that the Cirrus still broke the pilot's back on landing in an early pull. And the CTLS I fly is LSA and has none of the honeycomb under the seats that the Cirrus has. See my above re chances.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
And does it sport the same decent rate as the much larger Cirrus
alfadog
Final Approach
I am not a Cirrus-hater. I would love to own one or to fly one. I am not against BRS, either. The point of that one is that the chute failed, not that someone might have crashed in a Cessna.
alfadog
Final Approach
Yes, I believe it is 1500 fpm.
alfadog
Final Approach
Also "Cirrus warns that the decision to deploy the parachute should not be made lightly because parachute deployment may result in 'severe injury or death to the aircraft occupants.'"
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
\Here is my Twitter stream as of a couple minutes ago.
The MossY guy pounces on any pilot who says they've passed a checkride or whatever and points them to where they can purchase his G1000 course.
So helpful.
Brad Koehn (the guy he pounced on here) is a member of the "In The Pattern" Podcast.
It'd be funny if I could get those guys to watch some of these videos and rant about them on the podcast.
Heck, maybe I now have material to get the MHF crew ranting.
Right now we can't seem to align our free time schedules to record anything. Mike and I have some time, but Zyola is doing the single-mom-going-to-college thing for her Aeronautical Engineering degree and Doug is seriously busy at work and home.
It'd be soooo much fun to put out a good round-table rant on this stuff though.
I plan on ranting about him on my next podcast lol.
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think there are some problems with the reporting you've chosen here. There was no co-pilot, the other male was the BF of one of the daughters. There has been a belief the chute deployed on impact. It doesn't even mention the conversation he was having with the DuPage tower and then ATC. This guy flew into IMC conditions and should have turned around. By the tape, he was more interested in not being stuck on the ground for a day.
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/n223cd-sr-20-crash-chicago-11262011-audio/
alfadog
Final Approach
Descent rate is a function of parachute design vs. weight. There is no reason to assume that the LSA would descend slower especially given that the Cirrus has the price and usable load to pack a proportionally larger 'chute.
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DavidWhite
Final Approach
Henning I don't think anyone hates Cirrus, SVT, etc because they can't afford it.
I don't even know what SVT is
I don't even know what SVT is
alfadog
Final Approach
I am simply pointing out there that pulling the chute is no guarantee of anything. That is why I put it last and put a disclaimer. Not really about the specifics of what happened other than that point.
My point is that, given VFR and no structural damage, I would rather my pax contact someone on the ground and be talked down than pull that handle if I am unresponsive. Hell, I might wake up
alfadog
Final Approach
Synthetic vision, I presume. I will take the Cirrus, keep the SVT. If I want to play computer games, I will stay home.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
I have flown an SR22T with the SVT and all the bells and whistles installed. Its a fantastic airplane. They are really nice, predictable flying airplanes. I will use the technology to my advantage in the event of an emergency, however I was not bred to pull that chute when it gets tough. I will if I feel I have no other option though. My problem with the video is that he is too wrapped up in trying to change what works. We have seen this in the professional community as well. People forget the fundamentals and to FLY THE DAMN AIRPLANE! Bells and whistles kill if you ignore the fundamentals you were taught, and if you weren't taught the fundamentals because they are deemed insignificant in a TAA then you have been given a huge disservice to your skills. Look at AF447, hell I could name 20 crashes where this was a direct result. I would fly that engine out scenario VERY different and I would never teach a primary student as he is showing.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I'm not a big fan of chutes and wouldn't purchase a Cirrus solely for that reason. But if it's in the airplane, it's a tool, and I will determine under what conditions it will be used before the flight commences. I think the post claiming flight at best glide speed is safer than a parachute is mistaken. I will bet that far more people have died by crashing into things at best glide speed than have died under the canopy of a BRS parachute.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
DavidWhite
Final Approach
Flying an approach is already a computer game - I wouldn't mind SVT, but it would be silly in my skyhawk. Maybe one day
Skylane81E
Final Approach
And there is no reason to assume they would decend at the same rate either, hence the question.
dell30rb
Final Approach
If I suffered an engine out in a cirrus and did not have a large, smooth field, road or a runway (i'm thinking 2500 minimum just to be safe) i'd fly over something friendly looking, and pull the chute per the book instructions.
Reasons being - the cirrus lands kinda fast, the gear is probably not as stout as a cessna, piper and they do tend to catch fire. What if the field is plenty big but I land a bit hard in a rut, the gear fails and I catch a wingtip at 55knots? An off airport landing like this is much more easily accomplished in an airplane like a cessna, which can be plopped down at a lower speed and handle rougher terrain.
Reasons being - the cirrus lands kinda fast, the gear is probably not as stout as a cessna, piper and they do tend to catch fire. What if the field is plenty big but I land a bit hard in a rut, the gear fails and I catch a wingtip at 55knots? An off airport landing like this is much more easily accomplished in an airplane like a cessna, which can be plopped down at a lower speed and handle rougher terrain.
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alfadog
Final Approach
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
As somebody who flies a big airplane with a sometimes half working /A panel in hard single pilot IMC, I find it hard to understand why anyone would refuse more SA and technology hehe. Hell when I fly one of the /G 99s its like a huge luxury upgrade! I am all for, and welcome technology in the cockpit however, it seems that as technology increases in the cockpit, our bubble decreases, and we shrink into this cocoon of resources and forget about the big picture sometimes.
alfadog
Final Approach
Again, here is what the book says:
"The checklist then sets forth the 12-step "forced landing" checklist. No mention of the parachute, anywhere.
In the back of the Handbook, there is a separate section on the use of the parachute. This section lays out various scenarios in which the pilot should consider deploying the parachute, such as after a mid-air collision, aircraft structural failure, or loss of aircraft control"
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
I would put a Cirrus down on a 1000' strip of almost anything before I would pull the chute.
alfadog
Final Approach
Exactly. Maybe for some folks it is OK but many have commented how these computer screens in the cockpit suck up our attention and I know that I am susceptible to that.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
And the Skyhawk book says not to slip with flaps. Your point?
dell30rb
Final Approach
Well, I have not flown a cirrus. Maybe they are tougher and land slower than they look.
alfadog
Final Approach
Depending where in the desert, it could very well be the best. Soft sand most definitely. Smooth deep soft fine sand is probably the most deadly non vertical type surface, it would be worse than mature beans or vineyards at stopping fixed gear, waayyy worse than water lol. If you're gonna touch down on a beach, touch down near the water where the sand is dark but not glossy.
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Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
If I remember they land at 80-90kts or so. Not a 172 thats for sure. But I am more confident in my ability to create a safer outcome forcing it onto a strip than pulling the chute and crossing my fingers. I don't give a flying rats ass if I destroy the airplane when I land it, but I will get it on the ground more controlled than the chute could, if I could possibly manage it.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
1000ft you'd probably want to expect to hit what ever was at the end of that run.
BUT you could probably hit it very slowly. My only concern would be tearing off a wheel at high speed that wasn't ment for off airport operations and cartwheeling.
BUT you could probably hit it very slowly. My only concern would be tearing off a wheel at high speed that wasn't ment for off airport operations and cartwheeling.
jtheune
Ejection Handle Pulled
I like my chances better with my 11-year-old son following ground instruction than the chances with the 'chute. Assuming the airplane has fuel, is VFR, and flying well - all realistic assumptions in my case.
Here is some food for thought (and contrast it with the 80-year-old woman that was talked down recently in Cessna 414):
To Pull or Not to Pull
Similar to a Cirrus, the rate of descent of a Skylane without power, flaps up is about 800 feet per minute. According to BRS, the parachute manufacturer, and NTSB findings, the Cirrus rate of descent beneath a parachute is at least double, between 1,600 and 1,800 feet per minute.
Engine-out Descent Rate
Cirrus Under Parachute 1,600 fpm Uncontrolled
Cessna Glide 800 fpm Controllable
Incidentally, when Cessna designed the fowler-type flaps for the Skyhawk, they were called "Paralift" flaps. "Paralift" flaps substantially lower the stalling speed (to more than 20 knots less than that of a Cirrus). They also provide a gentler landing.
So, what if the pilot becomes incapacitated? Then what?
In a Cirrus, the passenger must shut off power to the engine, and follow the instructions on the emergency placard to activate the parachute. A passenger in a Cessna can also shut off power by pulling a big red knob, then turning the elevator trim wheel full up to attain best glide speed. With a Cessna, there remains an opportunity to steer the plane to avoid injury to people on the ground as much as possible.
Pulling the parachute has serious risks. The aircraft's rate of descent under the parachute is high. Ground impact forces are severe. Cirrus warns that the decision to deploy the parachute should not be made lightly because parachute deployment may result in "severe injury or death to the aircraft occupants."
The Cirrus, like every aircraft, comes with a Pilot Operating Handbook. That's the "bible" that the pilot is supposed to follow. The emergency checklist for an "engine out" scenario does not mention the parachute system:
Forced Landing (Engine Out): If all attempts to restart the engine fail and a forced landing is imminent, select a suitable field and prepare for the landing.The checklist then sets forth the 12-step "forced landing" checklist. No mention of the parachute, anywhere.
A suitable field should be chosen as early as possible so that maximum time will be available to plan and execute the landing. . .
In the back of the Handbook, there is a separate section on the use of the parachute. This section lays out various scenarios in which the pilot should consider deploying the parachute, such as after a mid-air collision, aircraft structural failure, or loss of aircraft control
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kills-businessman-Ray-Harris-2-daughters.html
- And finally, and yes, I know there are plenty of claimed saves for the CAP system:
A businessman and his two teenage daughters died in a plane crash yesterday afternoon after the parachute failed to slow the craft down.
Ray Harris and girls Ramie and Shey perished, along with a man believed to be the co-pilot, after the single-engined Cirrus-SR2 plummeted into a farm field near the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake.
It shattered into several pieces, killing all on board instantly, while on its way from Marion, Indiana to Wheaton, Illinois, where Shey, the eldest, attended college.
Your speeds are all predicated on a PILOT FLYING not a untrained non pilot. You said that you tell non-pilots to not pull the chute and I argued against that advice. Putting the trim full up ( if they know how ) will not trim to best glide, it may put you in a stall just as grabbing the yoke and pulling back may. I would go back and look in the cirrus documentation and see what they say about how to deal with the loss of the pilot. I'm betting the instructions are different.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
The landing distance for a Cirrus is only like 1300 feet as it is. Add a little abnormal braking to the mix and it should stop in 1000 or less, hell I have have done it. I can't comment on whether its more or less sturdy than a 172 gear, I would just say less because of how strong a 172 gear is, but I would plant that thing down and get on the brakes as hard as I can, who cares if it gets a little torn up in the process.
You're not landing at 400kts. I couldn't imagine seeing any light single cartwheel.
alfadog
Final Approach
I tell them, if the airplane is flying along, to contact someone on the ground before pulling the 'chute. I would hope they get talked down but, obviously, in my scenario, I would not have much say in the matter. If the person on the ground tells them to pull the 'chute then so be it. I just do not want them to automatically think of the 'chute as the solution. If they cannot contact anyone on the ground then pull the 'chute. I do see the 'chute as a tool, but not one to be used automatically. If there were no 'chute and they cannot contact someone on the ground then we can hope.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Fair assessment, I just wouldn't expect to be stopped that short.
I'd take it into a stand of trees or a small ditch/fence what ever at a slightly fast taxi speed and consider it s good outcome.
Houses, cliffs, or some other things might make me think twice though.