How to equip the panel on this airplane…blank slate

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N9406U

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Looking for some advice on how to equip this Mooney we are working on. As you can see it’s basically a blank slate. This aircraft is in a partnership, and will primarily be used for 400NM, mostly VFR cross countries. Budget is a big factor and cheaper is definitely better, so we’re looking to keep it fairly basic. Because of that, originally we were planning to rely on ILS for any approaches and forgo the installation of a GPS. That being said, all the pilots flying this plane are major airline pilots with lots of IFR experience, and the airplane will be based at an airport that only has an RNAV approach, so I can definitely see the value in something like a GNS 430W.

Our current thought process is this:

PMA8000
GNS 430W w/209
KX125 w/209
KT76
Tail beacon ADSB out
Stratus glare shield mount ADSB in, paired with an iPad.

One of the reasons for this is we already have a Hub system that has all the wiring for this set up, minus the GNS 430W.

What are everyone’s thoughts on this set up? I have had the thought of using a ADSB in/out compatible transponder instead of the KT76 and tail beacon. The other option of course is ADSB out only transponder, and keep using the stratus. I feel kind of silly going with a tail beacon if the interior and panel are already all apart, since the install cost will be minimal. But also hard to justify spending so much on a transponder. Just trying to find an optimal equipment/cost balance. Appreciate everyone’s insight and experience.

IMG_6105.jpegIMG_6108.jpegIMG_6100.jpeg
 
I recently had a thread about updating my M20C's panel that's of course similar in size. I haven't decided yet (may end up happening next year), but I'm planning on using a GNX 375 and PAR 200B since I have a nav/com #2 that will still give me ILS/VOR capabilities.

The only two definites that I'd think you should strongly consider: Go with something more modern as far as GPS (G430's are far too old to put in when you have an opportunity like this) and go with a transponder that has ADS-B in and out.
 
mark.staggs said:
The only two definites that I'd think you should strongly consider: Go with something more modern as far as GPS (G430's are far too old to put in when you have an opportunity like this) and go with a transponder that has ADS-B in and out.
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Yeah that. I can't imagine doing a new install of a G430 these days... they're old and outdated. And a Tailbeacon? Nah... they kinda suck.

Airline pilot partners? Tell 'em to quit being so cheap, they can afford better! Do a newer Garmin, whether it's a 650, 375, 355, plus install a real ADSB in/out transponder... plus maybe a used KX-125/155 as 2nd nav/com. To do basic IFR these days, you need a decent GPS navigator.

And I'm not ripping on airline guys, as I are one... I'm definitely on the cheap/frugal side of things, but in your case going extreme cheap just does you no favors.
 
Jus a few brain droppings

- sign-up for free https://hangarflying.com/ and start playing with various options
- Buying and installing an old GNS430W is not smart. The product is approaching the end of life cycle. Screens are unubtanium now, the days of flat-rate repairs long gone.
- Think ahead. In case you want to add an autopilot in the future, makes sure that everything plays nice together
- Consider the Garmin GNX 375. Saves precious real estate.
- Consider UAvionix AV30 combos
- Consider Guardian iPad frame https://guardianavionics.com/
 
Good ideas from all above. I'd include USB charging port of some kind, as well.
 
With multiple major airline partners, this really does sound like people being cheap rather than frugal, and setting themselves up for a far worse experience to save a few bucks. The equipment list proposed in the OP gives me a headache.

- GNX 375. Gives you WAAS GPS, transponder, and ADSB in/out in a single slim package.
- GNC 215. Radio with monitoring capability, plus nav for your ILS/VOR. Built-in 2-place intercom.
- GI 275. The AI version will give you everything you need for any approach. You could stop here. Add the HSI version, and you can pull out the vacuum system and the rest of the flight instruments. Add a third as an EIS and you can pull all the engine instruments and get comprehensive engine health reporting.

If you want a four-place intercom, the PMA 450C has been great in my panel. Built-in USB-C charging too, which works very well with a thoughtfully-mounted iPad. The above set-up is fully ready for a GFC 500 install if an AP becomes desirable and crucially, it all talks nicely together and the subsequent capability is shockingly good for a relatively small initial outlay.
 
My thoughts - don't limit yourself to yesterday's fading technology just because you have some of the parts.

My standard target is GTN-650, Back up navcom, garmin ADSB head controlled from the 650, and dual G5s replacing attitude indicator and directional gyro. With the G5s, you can take out the vacuum pump, gain some useful load, and eliminate an IFR failure point.

A GFC 500 is icing on the cake.
 
I would recommend getting a quote for:
G3X
G5
GFC500 autopilot
GNC355 GPS comm
GNC 215 VOR comm

This is going to be the state of the art you will end up comparing all your other choices to.

You will be out of service for a good while either way. Evaluate the price difference between ‘state of the art’ and ‘good enough’.

The avionics package is a huge chunk of ‘what is my aircraft worth’ if you were to sell it.
 
rockyfatcat said:
I would recommend getting a quote for:
G3X
G5
GFC500 autopilot
GNC355 GPS comm
GNC 215 VOR comm

This is going to be the state of the art you will end up comparing all your other choices to.
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While that’s a decent list, it does appear to be overkill on what they’re looking for… plus, that list doesn’t include a ADSB in/out solution, which they really should have. I don’t think they’re looking for that much current “state of the art” stuff, yet their proposed panel is 1998 “state of the art”!! It really oughta be somewhere in between… even a basic panel with a G375 with a G5 HSI plus a GNC215 or old KX155 nav/com would be a huuuuge step up in their capability.
 
I see the old PC Wing Leveler yoke button is gone, and it doesn't appear the plane has at least a wing leveler. As such, I speculate that no current or former airline pilots are intending to hand fly much hard IFR (at least none that I personally know). If that's the case, IMO there's nothing wrong with saving money by purchasing a GNS-430W for the occasional soft IFR flight or approach.

Another thing to be considered while designing and building your panel is the depth of the boxes and the locations of the Mooney steel cockpit cage tubes and associated mounting hardware. I've been involved in two Mooney total panel redesigns, and working around the tubes represents a significant consideration to where stuff gets positioned.

I'm considering upgrading the GNS-430W in my Mooney with a newer Avidyne box sometime later this summer... if interested drop me a PM.
 
jbDC9 said:
While that’s a decent list, it does appear to be overkill on what they’re looking for… plus, that list doesn’t include a ADSB in/out solution, which they really should have. I don’t think they’re looking for that much current “state of the art” stuff, yet their proposed panel is 1998 “state of the art”!! It really oughta be somewhere in between… even a basic panel with a G375 with a G5 HSI plus a GNC215 or old KX155 nav/com would be a huuuuge step up in their capability.
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The G3X would include a adsb transponder head inside the panel, like a g1000. I guess they're not required, but I've never seen an install without one. It's controlled through the screen.
 
bflynn said:
The G3X would include a adsb transponder head inside the panel, like a g1000. I guess they're not required, but I've never seen an install without one. It's controlled through the screen.
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The G3X doesn’t include a transponder, but a remote GTX345R can be added and be controlled through the G3X; it’s an extra $4-5k on top of the G3X price.
 
I'd look at the Dynon Skyview system with a GPS175 and Trig TX56 to get GPS/ILS capability. Plus, the Mooney is one of the planes that has their autopilot available.
 
Wow this is incredibly helpful. I think you sold us on the GNX 375. I had no idea that unit existed. I should add clarification about the airline part. It’s myself, my dad and brother. My dad is a major airline captian, but as a victim of the lost decade he is not rolling in money. Myself I am a FO with two young children. My brother is just now getting married and buying a house, and although he will eventually be at a major airline he is a regional FO and can’t even contribute financially into the project at the moment. On top of all that we just learned we’re going to have to spend $41k to get the engine rebuilt. So I said that more from an IFR proficiency perspective, not so much money. We should be able to afford to get this airplane up to speed, but definitely not an unlimited budget. We have opportunities to buy the PMA8000 and KX125 from the airplane seller at a very fair price which is why we were considering those. What would we gain going with a PMA450B over the 8000B? Also, is the KX 125 adequate as a backup navcom to the GNX 375? I guess the 375 doesn’t have a com so maybe two KX 125’s? No autopilot and steam gauges isn’t really a turn off to us because we get our fill of those things at work. But I do appreciate you bringing it up, good stuff to consider.
 
If you can get the PMA8000 and KX125 for "cheap" I'd do that and see if you can find another inexpensive com. Garmin has one, and there are others that you might find used at some avionics installers. That would get you everything you need (2 coms, 1 nav, GPS, and audio panel).
 
That’s exactly what I was thinking, except I was thinking 2 KX 125’s because he has two of them…I guess we could go with a com only for the second though. I’ll have to price those.
 
Just removed and replaced a working PMA7000M-S and replaced it with another one that looks new (with tray). Figured I would keep the worn looking one for a spare. If interested, let me know as they're are too many spare avionics in the hangar now that I wouldn't mind selling some of them cheap, including this working intercom.

IMG_2124.jpeg
 
Remember this one thing: the more integrated your panel is, the higher the chance of one component failure grounding you.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Remember this one thing: the more integrated your panel is, the higher the chance of one component failure grounding you.
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"Pull all your eggs in the one basket and - WATCH THAT BASKET."
-Mark Twain
 
A) I could be completely wrong here, but I think that if you put King radios in a nice airplane, at least two things will happen. 1 - you'll have nightmares about it. 2 - anyone who sees it will wonder what else you did wrong.

B) Congrats on what sounds like a nice project!

C) Whatever you do, you should make sure to have a panel that will let you do LPV approaches as well as ILS, have adsb in/out, and be on a platform that will be supported for several years.
 
jbDC9 said:
The G3X doesn’t include a transponder, but a remote GTX345R can be added and be controlled through the G3X; it’s an extra $4-5k on top of the G3X price.
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Yes. I was sloppy in saying that the transponder is inside the panel. It's not part of the G3
 
N9406U said:
so I can definitely see the value in something like a GNS 430W.
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I would not go with the 430... Sure you can get them relatively inexpensive, but in a couple of years when you have your first failure, there is a strong possibility you will NOT be able to find parts. They are becoming scarcer and scarcer every day.

To cover all your bases with GPS, VOR and ILS/LOC approaches, consider the GTN650. But I get that it is probably not what you want to spend. For a smaller price tag you can go with GPS only and look at one of the smaller Garmin boxes:
GPS175 = GPS Navigation/Approaches
GNC355 = GPS Navigation/Approaches and Comm
GNX375 = GPS Navigation/Approaches and Transponder w/ ADS-B In/Out

There are also the Avidyne navigators that are direct plug-in replacements for the GNS530/430s. However, there are some STC and interface issues with various autopilots and other devices. So make sure you talk though everything you're getting now and might get in the future with your avionics shop to make sure the Avidyne is compatible. You might go down a path and get burned at the end.
 
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N9406U said:
I think you sold us on the GNX 375. I had no idea that unit existed. I should add clarification about the airline part. It’s myself, my dad and brother. My dad is a major airline captian, but as a victim of the lost decade he is not rolling in money. Myself I am a FO with two young children. My brother is just now getting married and buying a house, and although he will eventually be at a major airline he is a regional FO and can’t even contribute financially into the project at the moment. On top of all that we just learned we’re going to have to spend $41k to get the engine rebuilt.
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Ah, makes sense now!

The GNX-375 GPS/xpdr was the magic box I'd been waiting for to do a panel upgrade on my RV-8; my original panel was basic, a KX-125 and a KT-76 transponder... I upgraded with the 375, added a GTR200 comm radio and kept the KX-125 as a second com(plus VOR). I also mounted and wired in an Aera 660 as a moving map display; this panel does all I need and didn’t break the bank! The 125 nav/com is a great unit, bought mine used 20 years ago and it's just fine. The VOR still works, but i honestly never use it. Plus, if you need ILS capability, add in a KI-209 indicator, I think that gets you an ILS receiver/indicator.
 
M20K said:
I would not go with the 430... Sure you can get them relatively inexpensive, but in a couple of years when you have your first failure, there is a strong possibility you will NOT be able to find parts. They are becoming scarcer and scarcer every day.
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100% this. For the price of a used GNS 430 you can get a new GPS 175, which is more capable and will be supported for a very long time.
 
Buy once, cry once. Do it right the first time. This isn't something you are going to do again in the next 5 to 10 years. Up to date avionics will help resell value if and when the plane is ever sold. I definitely wouldn't skip a modern GPS in any airplane that will fly IFR.
 
N9406U said:
What would we gain going with a PMA450B over the 8000B?
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One of the most advanced audio panels on the market. Probably you should look into the PS PAR200B as well. Great second radio without demanding its own panel space
 
Thanks everyone for the kind words!
Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering
 
Here the before and after of my buddy’s Mooney. I just installed his autopilot and we are going to be flying it sometime next week for testing.


mooney-panel-new-and-old.jpeg
 
I can design you one he’ll of a set up because I am not the person having to fund it.
 
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