How to avoid trouble with the FAA?

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No, nothing bad happened, but its always good to be prepared.

I have zero experience with dealing with ramp checks, "tower has a number for you to call" etc.

I'm sure many more of us never been there, but are full of questions and myths.
Some info about Dos and Don'ts before, while, and after a friendly chat with the FAA is what I'm looking for.

This could be a useful tool for us (the inexperienced) so lets try to keep this informative and avoid (if at all possible) getting sidetracked.
 
#1: Never lie to the feds.

There's a difference between lying to the feds and not talking to the feds. You have the right to remain silent, but if you open your mouth and lie, you're seriously screwed.

For example, during a ramp check, if the inspector asks to see your logbook, and you say "I don't have it with me.", yet he sees that logbook sitting on the passenger seat of the plane, you're in deep doggy-doo.
 
Always be cordial and compliant is my best advice. If it's a routine ramp check provide whatever the Inspector ask for ( certificates, medical, registration, airworthiness certificate ). If you are a student pilot have your logbook available. Always ask the Inspector to present his credentials (FAA 110A) for his identification.

Most Inspectors are aware that pilots don't carry aircraft logbooks, so if the Inspector wants to see them he can arrange a date and time for you to present them. Same is true about your personal logbook.
 
JeffDG said:
For example, during a ramp check, if the inspector asks to see your logbook, and you say "I don't have it with me.", yet he sees that logbook sitting on the passenger seat of the plane, you're in deep doggy-doo.
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How would the Inspector know who's logbook that is sitting in the passenger seat? He would have to physically pick it up and look at it, and he's not going to do that without your permission.

If the Inspector ask for your personal logbook, you can either produce it there or make an appointment to produce it at a later time. Of course this is assuming the pilot is not a student and otherwise is not required to carry his logbook.
 
Treat every encounter with them like you are meeting with a police officer. Be respectful, answer their questions truthfully, but don't offer more than needed. Do not argue with them on the ramp and get everything in writing. Also, make sure that you take a note of who you are dealing with and the they show you their ID.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
How would the Inspector know who's logbook that is sitting in the passenger seat? He would have to physically pick it up and look at it, and he's not going to do that without your permission.

If the Inspector ask for your personal logbook, you can either produce it there or make an appointment to produce it at a later time. Of course this is assuming the pilot is not a student and otherwise is not required to carry his logbook.
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That's all well and good, but if you have it with you, and you lie about it, you're in serious crap.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
How would the Inspector know who's logbook that is sitting in the passenger seat? He would have to physically pick it up and look at it, and he's not going to do that without your permission.
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Technically correct however if you're the only pilot in the plane there's a good chance it's yours. Honest or not about it not being yours, if you avoid showing it, the natural and logical reaction is that you're lying and from there it's easy to deduce that you're likely hiding something since that's normal human behavior nowadays. At that point you're likely to end up in a game of 50 questions and them wanting to see other documents they would have never thought to look into. It would be silly to get nailed on 10 different trivial things instead of showing that your recent experience is up to date.

If you don't want them snooping through the logbook, leave the book at home or at least out of sight.


One police officer I know said something along the lines of this: Don't lie to me, if I catch you lying you're getting a ticket. Shoot your mouth off, you're getting a ticket. Make up some cock-n-bull story, you're getting a ticket. When I got you fair and square and you throw your rights at me, you're getting a ticket. Play fair and be honest and you'll likely end up with just a warning or just a polite fix the tail light before you go driving next and have a nice day comment.
 
fgcason said:
Technically correct however if you're the only pilot in the plane there's a good chance it's yours. Honest or not about it not being yours, if you avoid showing it, the natural and logical reaction is that you're lying and from there it's easy to deduce that you're likely hiding something since that's normal human behavior nowadays. At that point you're likely to end up in a game of 50 questions and them wanting to see other documents they would have never thought to look into. It would be silly to get nailed on 10 different trivial things instead of showing that your recent experience is up to date.

If you don't want them snooping through the logbook, leave the book at home or at least out of sight.


One police officer I know said something along the lines of this: Don't lie to me, if I catch you lying you're getting a ticket. Shoot your mouth off, you're getting a ticket. Make up some cock-n-bull story, you're getting a ticket. When I got you fair and square and you throw your rights at me, you're getting a ticket. Play fair and be honest and you'll likely end up with just a warning or just a polite fix the tail light before you go driving next and have a nice day comment.
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I don't disagree. I find it amusing when the subject of ramp inspections come up for discussion it leads to how the Inspector is out to get everyone and will stop at nothing to ground the airplane and pilot. And usually these assumptions are made by those who have never experienced a ramp check. :dunno:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I don't disagree. I find it amusing when the subject of ramp inspections come up for discussion it leads to how the Inspector is out to get everyone and will stop at nothing to ground the airplane and pilot. And usually these assumptions are made by those who have never experienced a ramp check. :dunno:
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That wasn't my intent...I just intended to illustrate a situation where lying to a fed would be a BAD idea.
 
The best way to have a nice easy ramp inspection is to show up prepared. Have all your personal papers (pilot/med certs, photo ID) and aircraft documents (AROW) with you and in proper order. Have appropriate current aeronautical information (charts, A/FD, iPad/Foreflight, whatever) with you. Make sure all the required placards are in place on your plane inside and out. Don't have any unauthorized gizmos attached to the outside of the plane or installed in the instrument panel where they are visible to the discerning Inspector walking around the plane. Your N-numbers should be of the proper size, and along with the serial number, should match the numbers on your airworthiness cert and external data plate. Check the airplane to be sure there are no obvious mechanical defects, like missing or damaged bits here and there.

But how, you ask, can you prepare for a ramp check you don't know is going to happen until the Inspector walks up? Easy -- fly that way all the time. ;)
 
Who knows what the actual statistics are, but with the exception of a pilot based at the same airport as a FSDO, the probability of a random ramp check is so small as to be almost inconsiderable. I'm up to a total of one in 26 years of flying. Can't disagree with what Ron said though about having the required papers in order and not carrying unnecessary incriminating evidence (eg logbooks).

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Who knows what the actual statistics are, but with the exception of a pilot based at the same airport as a FSDO, the probability of a random ramp check is so small as to be almost inconsiderable. I'm up to a total of one in 26 years of flying. Can't disagree with what Ron said though about having the required papers in order and not carrying unnecessary incriminating evidence (eg logbooks).

Jon
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There is absolutely no reason you should be flying if something in your logbooks would be found to be incriminating.

Rich
 
Rich D said:
There is absolutely no reason you should be flying if something in your logbooks would be found to be incriminating.

Rich
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That holier-than-thou attitude aside, I would bet than an FAA inspector who wants to nail you could find something in your logbooks that isn't perfect and could potentially be cause for a violation. Might be something with the wording of an entry twenty years before you owned the plane.

I don't cheat on my taxes, but that doesn't mean the IRS couldn't find something wrong if they looked hard enough.

So I don't fly around with my logbooks, and I don't parade them in front of FAA inspectors.

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Who knows what the actual statistics are, but with the exception of a pilot based at the same airport as a FSDO, the probability of a random ramp check is so small as to be almost inconsiderable. I'm up to a total of one in 26 years of flying.
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I've been ramped once, in 17 years of flying. Because I had all the paperwork, it was a friendly, non-intrusive non-event -- but this was back in the innocent 1990s.

In our new, post-9/11 "heightened state of alert" (or whatever this era is known as now), however, I would be EXTREMELY cautious of what I did, and how I did it. Avoidance would be your best bet. Barring that, keep your eyes down, your voice respectful, your hands in plain sight, give them whatever they want, and pray to the Flying Spaghetti monster that you are dealing with a fair person.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
That holier-than-thou attitude aside, I would bet than an FAA inspector who wants to nail you could find something in your logbooks that isn't perfect and could potentially be cause for a violation. Might be something with the wording of an entry twenty years before you owned the plane.

I don't cheat on my taxes, but that doesn't mean the IRS couldn't find something wrong if they looked hard enough.

So I don't fly around with my logbooks, and I don't parade them in front of FAA inspectors.

Jon
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Since nobody I know flies around with the aircraft logbooks I assumed we were talking about the pilot's logbook.

What is so difficult about making sure you have the required number of landings and/or approaches, holds, etc. logged before you fly to be legal?

What else would the inspector be looking for in your logbook?

Rich
 
4CornerFlyer said:
That holier-than-thou attitude aside, I would bet than an FAA inspector who wants to nail you could find something in your logbooks that isn't perfect and could potentially be cause for a violation. Might be something with the wording of an entry twenty years before you owned the plane.
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Do you really think some inspector is going to waste his or her time going through your logbook with a fine toothed comb just because they see it laying on your seat? I don't fly with my logbook on board but it's not for that reason. I've been ramp checked 3 times in about 30 years. Once doing mapping, once giving instruction and once doing charter. All of them were non-events and probably lasted no more than 5-10 minutes each.
 
Everskyward said:
Do you really think some inspector is going to waste his or her time going through your logbook with a fine toothed comb just because they see it laying on your seat? I don't fly with my logbook on board but it's not for that reason. I've been ramp checked 3 times in about 30 years. Once doing mapping, once giving instruction and once doing charter. All of them were non-events and probably lasted no more than 5-10 minutes each.
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I agree.

There are so many wild myths created on the Internet about this subject. And the majority of them come from people who have never been ramp checked.
 
I know two pilots that have been ramp checked in the past 12 months. One was my Student another was a former IFR Student.

One was missing the external metal data plate and was simply told to get it fixed.

The other was missing all of his paper work. It was in his file on his kitchen counter from when he had unpacked from returning from Mexico. He simply told the inspector what happened and the inspector simply had him fax him copies of the paperwork.

Brian
 
Rich D said:
Since nobody I know flies around with the aircraft logbooks I assumed we were talking about the pilot's logbook.

What is so difficult about making sure you have the required number of landings and/or approaches, holds, etc. logged before you fly to be legal?
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You'd be amazed.

What else would the inspector be looking for in your logbook?
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Assuming we're talking beyond Student, endorsements -- flight review, complex, HP, etc., and potentially several others for Rec and Sport Pilots, such as the 61.325 endorsements for Sport Pilots in B/C/D airspace or the XC endorsement for Rec Pilots over 50nm from home.
 
Everskyward said:
Do you really think some inspector is going to waste his or her time going through your logbook with a fine toothed comb just because they see it laying on your seat?
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A fine toothed comb? No, not unless you're foolish enough to make them think they'll find something there by your words or actions. But despite the fact that not every Inspector does everything on their Ramp Inspection checklist, this is what FAA Order 8900.1 tells them they are supposed to do about Airman Documents:

D. Inspect Airman Documents.

1) Inspect airman certificates to determine appropriate ratings and limitations for the type of operations being conducted.

2) Determine if certificates are genuine and legible. (See Volume 5, Chapter 2, Section 1, General.)

3) Inspect airman medical certificates to determine if they are current and the appropriate class. Check for a Statement of Demonstrated Ability, if required, on the medical certificate.

4) If available, examine pilot logbooks (or other reliable records) to determine recency of experience and qualifications, such as:
· Biennial flight review
· Instrument proficiency check
· PIC proficiency check

5) If applicable, inspect pilot Category II and/or Category III authorization letters for currency. (§ 91.189)

6) Note any discrepancies on the job aid.
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So, as the thread title goes, "to avoid trouble with the FAA," be prepared for them to do everything on that checklist, including's checking your pilot logbook if it's "available," and if the question is asked, don't lie about its availability. Anyone who tells you not to be concerned about a logbook check is giving you an opportunity to get into trouble with the FAA, not a means to avoid it.
 
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Ron Levy said:
A fine toothed comb? No, not unless you're foolish enough to make them think they'll find something there by your words or actions. But despite the fact that not every Inspector does everything on their Ramp Inspection checklist, this is what FAA Order 8900.1 tells them they are supposed to do about Airman Documents:
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OK but the person I responded to was worried about what they may have logged way in the past, say, 20 years ago, although in this case the reference was to the aircraft logbook.

Might be something with the wording of an entry twenty years before you owned the plane.
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I guess I just don't tend to worry about these things so much. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
OK but the person I responded to was worried about what they may have logged way in the past, say, 20 years ago, although in this case the reference was to the aircraft logbook.
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FWIW, the FAA once burned a guy over a flight with passengers ten years earlier when the pilot did not have passenger flight landing currency. It was discovered on a logbook review for other reasons (possibly for the ATP written, which used to require verification of meeting the experience requirements before taking the written, not just the practical). The poor schlub tried fighting it on a "stale complaint" basis, but that rule only gives protection once 180 days have passed since the FAA's discovery of the violation, not the date of the violation itself Since the FAA hadn't seen his logbook since that flight until that review, the enforcement action was sustained.

So if there's a lesson in that, it's don't ever, ever put your pilot logbook before the FAA's eyes unless you've had it independently reviewed by a stickler like me to make sure there are no "errors" in it, because you don't get to correct them after the FAA's seen them. And that's why I tell folks not to carry their pilot logbook with them when flying unless the regs require it (e.g., Student, Rec, and Sport pilots, as mentioned above, or when taking training so your instructor can sign/endorse it).

That also means putting your pilot and medical certificates in your wallet, not your logbook, too, and when you think about it, you can replace them a lot faster than you can replace your logbook if you lose that log and those certificates are taped into it, not to mention that you're more likely to lose that logbook if you carry it around than you are your wallet which pretty much goes with you everywhere, anyway, and how often does that happen?
 
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Ron Levy said:
FWIW, the FAA once burned a guy over a flight with passengers ten years earlier when the pilot did not have passenger flight landing currency. It was discovered on a logbook review for other reasons (possibly for the ATP written, which used to require verification of meeting the experience requirements before taking the written, not just the practical). The poor schlub tried fighting it on a "stale complaint" basis, but that rule only gives protection once 180 days have passed since the FAA's discovery of the violation, not the date of the violation itself Since the FAA hadn't seen his logbook since that flight until that review, the enforcement action was sustained.
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Is there documentation of this or is it just something that got passed along by word of mouth like other scare stories I've heard.
 
Everskyward said:
Is there documentation of this or is it just something that got passed along by word of mouth like other scare stories I've heard.
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It's in the FAA's enforcement files, but it didn't get appealed to the NTSB, so it's not readily available, and I don't have Westlaw or Lexis/Nexis to get the ALJ result.
 
Ron Levy said:
So if there's a lesson in that, it's don't ever, ever put your pilot logbook before the FAA's eyes unless you've had it independently reviewed by a stickler like me to make sure there are no "errors" in it, because you don't get to correct them after the FAA's seen them. And that's why I tell folks not to carry their pilot logbook with them when flying unless the regs require it (e.g., Student, Rec, and Sport pilots, as mentioned above, or when taking training so your instructor can sign/endorse it).
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So they want to see your logbook, you review it, and notice such an error. How exactly are you going to correct it legally? Chances are nearly every pilot with thousands of hours has a flight in their logbook that isn't entirely legit. They can't just pencil in something to make it legit.

Seems like one would be better off losing their logbook if they knew there was an error and suspected the feds had an axe to grind. In that case all the FAA could do is look at the 8710s. You'd need to get some new endorsements (if appropriate) and a flight review and instrument currency (if appropriate) but all of that isn't a huge deal.

Not saying that one should lose their logbook - all I'm saying is that you are suggesting you can correct errors before they see it. Chances are you won't be able to correct anything.
 
Ron Levy said:
FWIW, the FAA once burned a guy over a flight with passengers ten years earlier when the pilot did not have passenger flight landing currency.
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I'm curious how the FAA knew he had pax, is there some kind of logging requirement if you are carrying pax on a commercial flight? Or did he just comment on it?
 
Unregistered said:
I'm curious how the FAA knew he had pax, ?
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I'd be curious as to why they wanted him so bad they went back 10 years to get him.

I believe that this is a big bad boogy man that never shows up.

I carry my pilots log with me with my medical certificate taped inside the front cover, I often retrieve customer's aircraft and bring it to my hangar for maintenance, which means I must have the log, so I carry them in the aircraft.

It isn't that big of a deal, If you are asked to show your logs to the FAA at the aircraft, all you need to say is " do you mind if I bring them up to date"? I have never seen a FAA employee that would refuse you that request.
 
Any one remember the Bob Hover debacle ? the FAA learned from that.
 
Ron Levy said:
... I tell folks not to carry their pilot logbook with them when flying unless the regs require it (e.g., Student, Rec, and Sport pilots, as mentioned above, or when taking training so your instructor can sign/endorse it).
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61.51(i) (3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.

(I hope I have the right paragraph number)
 
jnmeade said:
61.51(i) (3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.

(I hope I have the right paragraph number)
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One way I have seen that done (and I thought it was clever) was the pilot had photocopied the endorsements, shrunk the size and had it hard laminated so he could carry it with his other certificates. :yes:
 
jesse said:
So they want to see your logbook, you review it, and notice such an error. How exactly are you going to correct it legally?
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You line out the incorrect entry leaving the original data legible, write the correct data above it, and initial and date the change.

Chances are nearly every pilot with thousands of hours has a flight in their logbook that isn't entirely legit. They can't just pencil in something to make it legit.
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Correct. But they can always correct any errors they find retrospectively -- up until they present to the FAA or other legal authority as a certified true and correct legal record.

Seems like one would be better off losing their logbook if they knew there was an error and suspected the feds had an axe to grind.
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That might be true. If you read the accident reports, you may be amazed at how often the pilot's logbook (or the aircraft records) could not be located.

Now, don't get me wrong -- I am not advocating destruction of evidence or falsification of records. But if you go back and find an error, correct it before you show it to the FAA.

In that case all the FAA could do is look at the 8710s. You'd need to get some new endorsements (if appropriate) and a flight review and instrument currency (if appropriate) but all of that isn't a huge deal.
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That's true.

Not saying that one should lose their logbook - all I'm saying is that you are suggesting you can correct errors before they see it.
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Exactly.

Chances are you won't be able to correct anything.
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No bets on that. I'm just saying it's possible to avoid trouble by not knowinly giving them evidence of a technical violation of the rules.
 
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