How often is maintenance done on private planes?

orange

orange

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
807
Location
Pennsylvania
Display Name
Display name:
Orange
Apart from the obvious fixes if something breaks, leaks, cracks, etc., how often do you actually have a mechanic look at your plane? I'm talking about a typical Cherokee 140-160 or 152-172.

Besides the annual, I assume people change oil or have a mechanic do it, anything else?

How often do you change oil and what is the cost? Other costs?

I'm trying to figure out the costs to own versus rent? A plane purchase may be in my short-term future, but I'm not sure if it's worth the headache.

Thanks.
 
Renting is cheaper, but having your own plane has a lot of benefits. Access and scheduling, knowing you were the last one to fly it, knowing the maintenance is/was done right, not having to pay overnight rental minimums, familiarity with the plane, etc. Many people here do much of their own light maintenance, such as oil changes. I preferred to have an A&P do it, just to know that a trained mechanic with a lot more experience at spotting things than I am was looking under the cowl regularly. That is a choice you will need to make, but it does add to the costs of ownership.
 
Fly it...fix it...fly it...fix it...fly it...fix it.

Seriously...there are streaks like this bit it is still worth it!

Not at all a big deal if you have a great relationship with your A/P that you know has your back. I have one that I don't even ask for quotes and estimates from anymore and he as 24/7 access to my plane. He keep my plane flying on my timeline and I know I am not gonna get screwed overs on his rates.

I have has one flight in three years that I have had to scrub due to MX issues discovered at preflight...but probably 6-7 more that would have grounded me but his team jumps on my plane and gets me in the air with minimal delay.
 
Last edited:
Checkout_my_Six said:
renting is usually cheaper....
Click to expand...

That's true of a lot of things in life, but knowing that you are the only one in the cockpit (word intentional) who is allowed to fly the machine is worth a lot.

The old saying is that if it flies, floats or f###s, it is far cheaper to rent.

Having said that, if you do an oil change with a good friendly mechanic a few times, pretty soon you are doing the oil changes and he is looking it over when you are done, and a few times after that you chase after the IA doing the annual, then you are doing a lot of the gopher work taking inspection plates off and on ... I think you see where this is going.

Then again, there are a few airplane owners I don't trust to take a cowl screw off because I know damned good and well if that cowl screw gets lost a part from the aviation section of Home Depot will magically reappear in that spot.

Jim
 
Every time I get in the airplane, a mechanic is looking at it ;)
 
I change my own oil and do lots of owner assist stuff, makes a large difference in cost, also by having your hands on the plane doing oil changes, washing, and little stuff like changing tires and greasing fittings, you'll catch little things you otherwise might not notice before they become big $nags.

Oil change for me, 10qts X/C, cam guard, filter, 70ish bucks I guess.

I also write off all my airplane expenses which helps, and don't live in a cesspool city, which also helps, mx isn't really a big expense on my plane, no where near fuel costs for me, or fun mods costs.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Maintenance is probably done all the time, is it all documented?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you?

If you're investing the time and money, I'd want something to show for it, and in aircraft, that's felt in the air and shown in the logs and the ramp appeal.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Maintenance is probably done all the time, is it all documented?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the answer is a resounding NO. Fifteen years or so ago I refused to do any more annuals on one customer's plane. He did a lot of work on it and it was quality work. Problem was he neither logged it nor did he tell me what he had done. I wasn't about to put my certificate on the line for him.
 
Norman said:
Unfortunately, the answer is a resounding NO. Fifteen years or so ago I refused to do any more annuals on one customer's plane. He did a lot of work on it and it was quality work. Problem was he neither logged it nor did he tell me what he had done. I wasn't about to put my certificate on the line for him.
Click to expand...

This baffles me, list that plane for sale, say you have all this stuff done, new this, new that, no logs showing it, as far as I'm concerned those wheels bearings were replaced the last time the logs say they were, and what you'll get for your plane will reflect this.


For me at least, as someone who makes a living from my cert, I'm not flying a plane that's not kosher.
 
If someone is not making the required maintenance entries for the work they performed, what else are they omitting / not doing?

I was looking at a plane to possibly partner in and reviewed the logs. It flew over 100 hours in the past year and the only two log entries for the past two years were the two annual inspections and the aircraft was sporting brand new tires and the oil on the stick looked new. Something not quite right there. I walked.
 
James331 said:
This baffles me, list that plane for sale, say you have all this stuff done, new this, new that, no logs showing it, as far as I'm concerned those wheels bearings were replaced the last time the logs say they were, and what you'll get for your plane will reflect this.


For me at least, as someone who makes a living from my cert, I'm not flying a plane that's not kosher.
Click to expand...
So true. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot as far as resale value goes. Sloppy, sloppy...
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
So true. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot as far as resale value goes. Sloppy, sloppy...
Click to expand...
I have two customers that keep a list and notes as to what they have completed during the year. At annual time they have me tell them the verbiage to use in their maintenance records, it's like they re afraid to write in their logs unsupervised.
 
Owning is a headache. It's more expensive than renting. Be sure you're ready for that reality before buying.

The only real value in owning is the convenience of having it always available and knowing every detail about when and how it is maintained.

Mine was in and out of the shop the first 4 months I had it because I didn't let anything slide. I'm in annual now for over 3 weeks. Will probably be one more. When I fail a run up I'm done. I don't get to go get the other rental. To repeat it is a pain in the a$$.

It's worth it for me though. (When it's running) I get to jump in and take it for a week or two without having to check availability or check in with anyone. I'm a bit of a fair weather flyer (and don't always play well with others) so I don't have to worry about it being gone when I want to fly. I'm not sharing expenses or time. If I want something fixed, it gets done.

If it's a financial decision... rent. If it's a ease of use decision.... rent. If you have lots of money, patience and don't want to be told when you can or can't use your plane, your a good candidate for an owner. :)

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Although I've only owned this plane for six weeks I don't find working on it to be a headache. I rather enjoy it.

That said, I decided to buy a plane I could pay for in cash & still have a comfortable cushion of cash in savings in case something unexpected pops up. I wasn't in that position while I raised my seven children. I knew I wouldn't enjoy a plane if it was a financial burden.

Don't be in a big hurry to buy.
 
orange said:
Apart from the obvious fixes if something breaks, leaks, cracks, etc., how often do you actually have a mechanic look at your plane? I'm talking about a typical Cherokee 140-160 or 152-172.
Click to expand...

It depends, sometimes I go for months---almost annual to annual---without it needing to be looked at, other times it'll need A couple visits in a month.

orange said:
Besides the annual, I assume people change oil or have a mechanic do it, anything else?
Click to expand...

Whatever breaks or starts acting up. It's quite variable.

orange said:
How often do you change oil and what is the cost? Other costs?
Click to expand...

My oil is changed every 40 hours or four months, whichever comes first (I have a filter). I change my own oil and, like James said, it's about $70 or so for everything. Unlike what another previous poster said, I'd rather change my own oil than have a mechanic do it so I can look over everything under the cowl while its apart. Plus, I typically wash the plane & engine at each oil change.

Other costs are variable depending on what breaks.

orange said:
I'm not sure if it's worth the headache.
Click to expand...

Yes it is...trust me! :cheers:

And contrary to what some others have said, owning isn't necessarily more expensive than renting though that's likely highly dependent upon what part of the country you live in. In my case, all in, including reserves for engine and avionics, my operating cost has been less than $120/hr. Try renting a 182 for that.

The key is finding a good plane to start with...a solid platform to build "your machine" on...one that won't nickel and dime you to death from years of neglect. Good ones are out there. You have to be very careful though. Aircraft brokers are the only people less scrupulous than used car salesmen IMO.

And you can find just as good of airplanes (dependability wise) built in the '50's as you can built in the '80's or '90's.

Sometimes better actually.

And your initial cost will be substantially less.
 
Last edited:
linuxjim said:
Owning is a headache. It's more expensive than renting. Be sure you're ready for that reality before buying.

The only real value in owning is the convenience of having it always available and knowing every detail about when and how it is maintained.

Mine was in and out of the shop the first 4 months I had it because I didn't let anything slide. I'm in annual now for over 3 weeks. Will probably be one more. When I fail a run up I'm done. I don't get to go get the other rental. To repeat it is a pain in the a$$.

It's worth it for me though. (When it's running) I get to jump in and take it for a week or two without having to check availability or check in with anyone. I'm a bit of a fair weather flyer (and don't always play well with others) so I don't have to worry about it being gone when I want to fly. I'm not sharing expenses or time. If I want something fixed, it gets done.

If it's a financial decision... rent. If it's a ease of use decision.... rent. If you have lots of money, patience and don't want to be told when you can or can't use your plane, your a good candidate for an owner. :)

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Sounds like the result of no prebuy, or a very poor prebuy.

I haven't had these huge mx issues with planes I've owned, seems like if you buy right, aren't ham fisted, most of these planes are pretty simple machines and just keep ticking as long as you let them
 
The cost owning vs renting is an entirely different thread. Unless you have a superior rental deal, there is a break even point in terms of hours per year (every year) where owning will be cheaper and that point will be different for everyone.

Right now for me, my best rental choice costs $65/month plus $109/hour. I calculate my owning cost at about $500/month fixed and $70/hour variable. At 12 hours a month or 144 hours a year it is cheaper to own, costing me $1,340 every month. But if I'm honest, I will almost certainly not fly 12 hours a month every month right now. It's cheaper for me to rent.

So what is scheduling flexibility, knowing the airplane, etc worth to you?
 
orange said:
Apart from the obvious fixes if something breaks, leaks, cracks, etc., how often do you actually have a mechanic look at your plane? I'm talking about a typical Cherokee 140-160 or 152-172.

Besides the annual, I assume people change oil or have a mechanic do it, anything else?

How often do you change oil and what is the cost? Other costs?

I'm trying to figure out the costs to own versus rent? A plane purchase may be in my short-term future, but I'm not sure if it's worth the headache.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

When you come to fly in next weekend, I can show you my 182 and what I have had to pay in the 1st 1.5 years of ownership. I'm in a small group (4 pilots) which has really offset some of the costs.

It's certainly not cheaper but is much, much more enjoyable to be able to fly 1 plane all the time, know who flew it last, and where you are with maintenance on it and take it whenever you want most of the time
 
James331 said:
Sounds like the result of no prebuy, or a very poor prebuy.

I haven't had these huge mx issues with planes I've owned, seems like if you buy right, aren't ham fisted, most of these planes are pretty simple machines and just keep ticking as long as you let them
Click to expand...
Took it a 2 hr flight away to one of the "top 3" for my make for the prebuy. A bunch of non-airworthy stuff came up I chose to deal with quickly, a few upgrades, trying to find a mechanic I could work with, then a couple other items (sensors, mag, gear, etc) that came up and blah blah blah. I'm sure my MX after purchase is on the extreme side and a good portion was self induced, but my point still stands.
There are a lot of things you have to deal with as an owner that you don't as a renter and you have to fly a LOT of hours to financially justify owning vs. renting. For me though, the knowledge and control over what's being done to it and the flexibility I get to use it is worth it.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
Thanks all for the comments. Yes, I hear FRG is not the cheapest place to garage your bird. And fuel there seems to be pricey too, although I rent wet, so never really compared.

As for availability, the school, I rent from has 5 of the exact same Cherokee 160 that I trained on. Maybe during the spring and fall on a weekend morning, there are none available but pretty much any other time, there is at least 1 available. They also have an Archer 180 and couple more powerful ones.

The other thing which some of you mentioned is maintenance. With a rental, if something breaks, I tell them and take a different one. With my own, it goes in the shop for who knows how long. That's sucks. The other part about maintenance is that most of the rentals have something not functioning or some quirks about the way it starts up or doesn't have a engine heater in the winter, etc. With my own plane, being OCD, everything would always work as intended.

Honestly, until my girls go off on their own in a few years, I probably should not be making investments that have this much uncertainty about how much $ it will take to maintain. Realistically, my timeline to buy should be in about 10 years.
 
Renting is usually cheaper: That's true as far as it goes. Depending on the plane and availability of rentals, renting is cheaper is you fly less than 50-120 hours per year and more expensive if you fly more than that.

For me, what was more important was that it was hard to fly more than about 40 hours a year with the rental options I had available. They were either scheduled by other renters the times that I wanted them or club/FBO rules prevented me from making the trips I was interested in (e.g. take a plane for a month and fly around the mountains, or fly to the Bahamas).

With my own plane it's available when I want it to be and I fly 120-150 hours a year thanks to the lack of restrictions. At those kinds of hours, there is no doubt that owning my Maule is cheaper than renting.
 
Last edited:
neilw2 said:
When you come to fly in next weekend, I can show you my 182 and what I have had to pay in the 1st 1.5 years of ownership. I'm in a small group (4 pilots) which has really offset some of the costs.

It's certainly not cheaper but is much, much more enjoyable to be able to fly 1 plane all the time, know who flew it last, and where you are with maintenance on it and take it whenever you want most of the time
Click to expand...

^This.

I'm surprised there aren't a lot more 2,3, and 4 person ownership groups. There are a lot of fixed costs involved in flying, from the initial capital, to hangar/tie-down, annual inspection, pitot-static tests, transponder test, insurance and chute repack for the Cirrus. Splitting that bill can make a huge difference in the cost. Or when something suddenly breaks, from an alternator to the engine. Having co-owners to split the bill with makes that surprise significantly easier to handle.

Unless you fly frequently the lack of availability is often more perceived than real. I was in a 4 pilot group for over 4 years with a Cirrus SR22; thinned down to 3 of us near the end. We had 2 or maybe 3 "real" availability conflicts during that time. The other time conflicts were more, "It's a nice weekend, I'll go fly a little. Oops, X has the plane on a trip, well, another weekend then."
 
The decision to rent vs buy when it comes to flying is not a financial one. Yes, finances have to be addressed, as you have to be sure you can afford it. But buying a plane because you're trying to save money vs renting, is a bit like buying something you don't need because it was on sale.

Before I purchased, I did the big, complex, all-inclusive spreadsheet to show my wife how it would save me money vs renting. In reality, the spreadsheet didn't even come close to the actual costs of ownership. (In reality, it was more expensive.) But it wasn't the spreadsheet that convinced her. It was the shabby-looking rentals that did the trick. (Although they were mechanically sound.)

The thing is, I don't regret it at all. As others have said, having your own plane that only you fly, and that you can keep in the best shape that YOU feel is possible...well, there's nothing better, IMHO. The freedom is unmatched, as (in our case) is the utility.
 
before you traipse off on to ownership with your first (and there will be a $$$ learning curve)....graduate the rentals and find a club. You'll see better equipment....more savings....more availability. After you do that for a while....and you still need your own....then start thinking of buying.
orange said:
Thanks all for the comments. Yes, I hear FRG is not the cheapest place to garage your bird. And fuel there seems to be pricey too, although I rent wet, so never really compared.

As for availability, the school, I rent from has 5 of the exact same Cherokee 160 that I trained on. Maybe during the spring and fall on a weekend morning, there are none available but pretty much any other time, there is at least 1 available. They also have an Archer 180 and couple more powerful ones.

The other thing which some of you mentioned is maintenance. With a rental, if something breaks, I tell them and take a different one. With my own, it goes in the shop for who knows how long. That's sucks. The other part about maintenance is that most of the rentals have something not functioning or some quirks about the way it starts up or doesn't have a engine heater in the winter, etc. With my own plane, being OCD, everything would always work as intended.

Honestly, until my girls go off on their own in a few years, I probably should not be making investments that have this much uncertainty about how much $ it will take to maintain. Realistically, my timeline to buy should be in about 10 years.
Click to expand...
 
linuxjim said:
Took it a 2 hr flight away to one of the "top 3" for my make for the prebuy. A bunch of non-airworthy stuff came up I chose to deal with quickly, a few upgrades, trying to find a mechanic I could work with, then a couple other items (sensors, mag, gear, etc) that came up and blah blah blah. I'm sure my MX after purchase is on the extreme side and a good portion was self induced, but my point still stands.
There are a lot of things you have to deal with as an owner that you don't as a renter and you have to fly a LOT of hours to financially justify owning vs. renting. For me though, the knowledge and control over what's being done to it and the flexibility I get to use it is worth it.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Top 3 shops or APIAs? The name over the door doesn't mean jack to me, it's the man tied to the cert inked into my logs. Even the non airworthy stuff should be addressed on prebuy if it wasn't mentioned in the listing, that's something that is paid for by the seller or discounted off the price IMO.

Also for the rent v own, the planes I've owned I have never seen for rent. I do agree that buying something like a 172 or PA28 makes a lot less sense vs renting, vs buying something like a nanchang, CH750, PA18 etc.
 
Shops. There are only a few shops that have primarily focused on the Super Viking. So I wanted to make sure it went to someone who knew the make. And as a newbie pilot/first time owner, I didn't have knowledge of who was good or not, so the best I could do was ask the owners of the same type and they unanimously said that it should really go to one of the "top 3".

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
My fixed cost is ~ $87/month. Hourly cost is ~$72/hour including gas. I can't rent an airplane for that, ad do what I do with mine.
The rentals here are at $120/hour for the cheapest, and $250/hour+ for others. Plus a 4 hour minimum per day, if you take it for the weekend.
 
If you own it, it's yours. You can leave your headset and sunglasses and anything else in the plane you want and put the key on your keyring and one fine day look up at the sky after a storm and say "I think I'll go flying now". Drive over to the airport, hop in and go touch the sky. No phone calls, no scheduling, no getting permission. Flying is all about freedom!
 
Yes, if you're going to own an airplane it's because you want to own an airplane, not because of some silly contrived financial formula.
 
There's a non-financial aspect to the rental vs owning comparison that is often overlooked. Owning an airplane will increase the complexity in your life. Aviation is highly regulated and that is reflected over and above all the stuff owners have to stay on top of from hangar/tie-downs to maintenance/logbooks to insurance and a bunch of other stuff.

Renting is a matter of managing it into your personal schedule, not much different from booking a tee time.

Big difference that a potential owner should not underestimate. Having said that, I won't go back to renting, except to fly a few hours in a new or different type of airplane just for fun.
 
Well, if you want a comprehensive list of what has broken on my plane in the last (less than) year:

http://n194sp.aero/squawks

I'm approaching some serious regret in buying this thing.

EDIT: That's for about 250 hours of flying.
 
arnoha said:
Well, if you want a comprehensive list of what has broken on my plane in the last (less than) year:

http://n194sp.aero/squawks

I'm approaching some serious regret in buying this thing.

EDIT: That's for about 250 hours of flying.
Click to expand...

timwinters said:
And you can find just as good of airplanes (dependability wise) built in the '50's as you can built in the '80's or '90's.

Sometimes better actually.

And your initial cost will be substantially less.
Click to expand...

I rest my case!

Also, to the O.P...if you tie your plane down then you'll likely have far more mx costs than if it's hangared.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top