How much wind is too much?

Pinecone said:
IMO, this is VERY good advice. Flying when things are slightly above your comfort level, WITH an instructor, is a great way to expand your skills.

And you don't have to fly a full hour. A few turns around the pattern may be enough experience/excitement for the day.
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Funny that you say this.

We flew on Sunday in (to me) relatively heavy, gusting winds, when many of the day's flights were being cancelled. There was a heavy crosswind on our runway, so we climbed over the turbulence and did some basic nav and stall practice, then tried to drop down for ground reference, and hit a lot of really disruptive stuff. At that point I threw in the towel decided to go back "early"....and had logged 1.3 hours.
 
Timbeck2 said:
and if you can’t hold alignment?
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Crab and slip into the wind, differential power between engines. And hold the rudder pedal on the floor to align up at the last second.!!

Remember I flew for a living so this really doesn't apply to this thread, but back in the day if I didn't fly because of wind I would be out of a job.

Whatcha checking weather for, you're going anyway.!!
 
MauleSkinner said:
What specifically made it not a good use of time? Maybe that’s the question you need to answer, and figure out how to address that issue.
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Perhaps I learned that I'm not [yet?] skilled enough to hold a 45 degree bank in significant wind gusts? Bluntly, I'm still trying to get the basics down, and I'd like to have a few more successful [read: calm] landings under my belt before going too much further.

That being said, your point is well taken. More seat time is, well, more seat time - even if I'm not meeting maneuver standards in conditions.
 
Zeldman said:
Whatcha checking weather for, you're going anyway.!!
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I can’t remember why the Fed was on the phone with me that day, but when he asked how the weather was and I said, “It doesn’t matter, we’re going anyway,” there was a LOOOOONNNNG pause before he gave a half-hearted chuckle.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Was at an IAC contest, so was really cool to watch Pitts and Extras give it a shot. Everyone who tried made it, though a few Pitts had to try 3 or 4 times, with much skipping and tires barking.
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At one IAC competition, we all got through the mandatory sequences, barely. Right after that, the organizers met up and cancelled the unknowns. That wind was memorable! There was a small taxiway that acted like a “high speed” off the narrow downhill runway that saved my bacon.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I've had it happen a few times. The towered airport version:
Tower: Cleared to land...
Me: I don't think so. Going around.
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And sometimes, when you do think it’s safe enough to land, the tower will give you a compliment after they’ve watched the show.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well since the two choices seem to be (a) go around or (b) increase the risk of damaging the airplane or myself, I don't think it's a difficult question.

I've had it happen a few times. The towered airport version:
Tower: Cleared to land...
Me: I don't think so. Going around.
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Which was my point.
 
iamtheari said:
I think that part of the discussion you quoted was about what to do if you're at risk of running out of gas before the wind allows you to make a safe landing. And the answer is the second step in a two-step process: Go around, then divert to a safer place to land.
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Ah... I didn't catch that part. Well, since being at risk of running out of gas would have involved a series of bad decisions and poor judgment - including heading to this airport to begin with - all bets are off on the pilot suddenly making a good one.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Ah... I didn't catch that part. Well, since being at risk of running out of gas would have involved a series of bad decisions and poor judgment - including heading to this airport to begin with - all bets are off on the pilot suddenly making a good one.
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I read the fuel exhaustion issue into the discussion but there was a clear undertone of “What do you do if the wind stays too bad for you to land?” Running out of gas is a possible consequence of going around too many times before deciding to divert. You can have a 3-hour fuel reserve when you first arrive and still run out a mile from the airport. There are many opportunities to exercise good judgment.
 
iamtheari said:
I read the fuel exhaustion issue into the discussion but there was a clear undertone of “What do you do if the wind stays too bad for you to land?” Running out of gas is a possible consequence of going around too many times before deciding to divert. You can have a 3-hour fuel reserve when you first arrive and still run out a mile from the airport. There are many opportunities to exercise good judgment.
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If forced to choose between running out of gas and landing in a crosswind that exceeds aircraft capability, I'll take my chances on the latter. Obviously several judgment errors have to be committed to get to that point, but if you don't have enough reserve, then the only answer is "land anyways".

Of course none of us would ever put ourselves in that position, because we NEVER make errors in judgement. The other guy does that. :rolleyes:
 
Ed Haywood said:
If forced to choose between running out of gas and landing in a crosswind that exceeds aircraft capability, I'll take my chances on the latter.
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I don't think it's really a choice. If you do the first, you will necessarily also do the second. However, you will do the second without the ability to execute a go-around.
 
iamtheari said:
I read the fuel exhaustion issue into the discussion but there was a clear undertone of “What do you do if the wind stays too bad for you to land?” Running out of gas is a possible consequence of going around too many times before deciding to divert. You can have a 3-hour fuel reserve when you first arrive and still run out a mile from the airport. There are many opportunities to exercise good or bad judgment.
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FIFY. And if you spent three hours trying to land instead of diverting, you may have cornered the market.
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For me, I got used to flying and the motion sickness over time or whatever it was that made me feel uneasy.

I went to my first lesson with a friend, the CFI went up in high winds and did 60deg bank turns. My friend never had another lesson.

You don’t know how other people feel so start slow. <10kts and no steep turns.

My rule of thumb today is <50kts and wind shear <30kts. I delayed a flight before that was 55-60kts until winds were closer to 40kts. That was a lot. I wouldn’t do training on these but I would do a xc going to somewhere else. Training wise probably <15kts.
 
mandm said:
For me, I got used to flying and the motion sickness over time or whatever it was that made me feel uneasy.

I went to my first lesson with a friend, the CFI went up in high winds and did 60deg bank turns. My friend never had another lesson.

You don’t know how other people feel so start slow. <10kts and no steep turns.

My rule of thumb today is <50kts and wind shear <30kts. I delayed a flight before that was 55-60kts until winds were closer to 40kts. That was a lot. I wouldn’t do training on these but I would do a xc going to somewhere else. Training wise probably <15kts.
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50 knots on the ground in a light plane? Nope, not for me.
 
For planning purposes, my math is a little bit different. I look at: a) what's the wind now? b) how's that compared to what it is/was supposed to be? c) what's it predicted to be? So if it's pretty calm, and supposed to be calm, and not supposed to get much worse, than fine. If it's not great, but supposed to be not great, and supposed to be better, then probably. If it's not great, and either was supposed to be good and isn't or is supposed to get worse, then probably not. I don't fly for a living, I have some crosswind experience, and I'm a bit of a baby. I don't want to get stuck in something that I should have avoided, and then later have to explain why my crappy judgement led to a bent airplane.

For wind, I don't care much about winds aloft, unless it's going to give me a 30-40k ground speed, then maybe it's silly. Wind sheer or difference between ground and low altitude? Not a fan over over 20k, but I'm a bit of a baby.

For a light crosswind, I'll usually just slip, because it's maybe a little bit easier and I don't mind slips. But for more than a little bit I'll just fly an angle into the wind on the way down, wings level. I don't know what the crosswind component is, but to me up to maybe off 30 degrees from straight isn't unusual. That way I don't have to worry about running out of rudder and it's way more comfortable for me in gusts. Just keep tracking straight. A few feet up, swing it around and slip as required.
 
You find out how much wind is too much wind the instant your wheels leave the runway on take off. Of course, that information is useless at that point.

I did that once, planning to get night current in the C206 about 20 years ago (and I had probably around 800 hours in that aircraft at that time). I managed to fly the pattern and land safely in wild crosswind turbulence, but it was definitely one of those "Holy Crap!" moments, and I wisely decided to get night current some other time. ;)
 
The bottom line is that once you get your license and start flying places the wind isn't always going to be reliably predictable at your destination so there may come a time when you just have to give it a try and if you find on short final that it ain't gonna work then go somewhere else where it hopefully will.
 
Albany Tom said:
For planning purposes, my math is a little bit different. I look at: a) what's the wind now? b) how's that compared to what it is/was supposed to be? c) what's it predicted to be? So if it's pretty calm, and supposed to be calm, and not supposed to get much worse, than fine. If it's not great, but supposed to be not great, and supposed to be better, then probably. If it's not great, and either was supposed to be good and isn't or is supposed to get worse, then probably not. I don't fly for a living, I have some crosswind experience, and I'm a bit of a baby. I don't want to get stuck in something that I should have avoided, and then later have to explain why my crappy judgement led to a bent airplane.

For wind, I don't care much about winds aloft, unless it's going to give me a 30-40k ground speed, then maybe it's silly. Wind sheer or difference between ground and low altitude? Not a fan over over 20k, but I'm a bit of a baby.

For a light crosswind, I'll usually just slip, because it's maybe a little bit easier and I don't mind slips. But for more than a little bit I'll just fly an angle into the wind on the way down, wings level. I don't know what the crosswind component is, but to me up to maybe off 30 degrees from straight isn't unusual. That way I don't have to worry about running out of rudder and it's way more comfortable for me in gusts. Just keep tracking straight. A few feet up, swing it around and slip as required.
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Hi Tom, as I mentioned before wind forecasts are pretty much useless IMO. I still check them, but I take them with a grain of salt. AWOS, metars and ATIS on the other hand are better, far from perfect, but better. Foreflight is nice if you are connected to ads-b weather, you can get fairly recent winds and, at least on the plan I have, you can go into the airport tab, click on runway, and it will give you the wind split into head wind and cross wind. Once again, this can change by the minute, but it gives you a good idea of what to expect.

Beyond that, what I will do is listen to the Awos, atis, etc, get the current wind on the way in. Then I will calculate the crosswind component. For our PPL test we need to use a wiz wheel or some type of calculator and get an answer to the tenth of a mph. In reality that type of accuracy is never necessary, as the wind can change from second to second. As I gain experience I actually think that how that is taught does pilots a disservice. I find that an approximation however is very useful. The x-wind component is a simple trig calculation.

Bear with me here, without getting into too much detail, because it really doesn't matter, the crosswind component is the Sine of the difference between the runway heading and the wind direction. Now that sounds a little complicated, but it isn't. I'll calculate it out once here to show you how it works, but in the end you just need to memorize 3 or 4 numbers and you will have as accurate an estimate of crosswind as you will ever need in your flying.

Let's say I want to land on runway 05 and the wind is blowing at 10 knots from 080. To calculate the crosswind component I find the difference between the runway direction and wind direction, in this case 050 and 080. So that is 30 degrees. My xwind component = 10kts * sin30 = 10 * 0.5 = 5 knots. The crosswind in this case is 5 knots. That's how it is calculated, as you probably know.

I don't do this calculation. Instead I've memorized the crosswind multiplier for several wind angles. The ones I use are sin15 = 0.25 sin30= 0.5 sin45= 0.7 and sin 60 = 0.9 .

So for the following wind angles I use the following multipliers:

15 degrees = 0.25
30 degrees = 0.5
45 degrees = 0.7
60 degrees = 0.9
90 degrees = 1.0

That's what sticks in my head. So if I want to land on runway 12 and the wind 180 at 20 knots, I find the difference between the wind and the runway, in this case it's 60 degrees, then I multiply the wind times the 60 degree multiplier above, 20 * 0.9 = 18 knots. I would prepare mentally for ABOUT an 18 knot crosswind. Remember, the wind is almost always changing, so close enough is good enough in this case as far as I'm concerned. I'll do a couple more:

rwy 23 wind 260 at 15 260-230 = 30 so I get 15mph * 0.5 = 7.5 knot crosswind.
Rwy 33 wind 010 at 10 (360-330) +10= 40 so I get 10 mph * 0.7 = 7 knot crosswind. Remember, we don't need to be perfect, just close.

Now the pedantic and ocd amongst will point out the inaccuracy of what I do here, but since these numbers all vary anyway, they are close enough.

So memorize those 5 angles and the associated crosswind multiplier and you will quickly have a good idea of what you will see when you are close to the ground.
 
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PaulS said:
Your instructor is testing your ADM, you have 10 hours, don't sweat it. The thing about wind and forecasts is that wind forecasts are notoriously bad. It can go both ways, but some day it will happen, you'll be flying, get to your destination and the forecast calm winds will be howling. Sometimes you can find another airport, sometimes you can't. What do you do if you've decided your limit is under 10 knots?

I would tell the instructor what you would do if you were flying alone, then ask him if he's comfortable flying in winds you are not comfortable in. The answer will be invariably yes, if it is, go. Dealing with bumps, rough air, wind shear, gusty crosswinds are all part of flying. Better to get that experience now while you are learning. You said that flying in the choppy tough conditions was a waste, but actually it never is. Flying in less than ideal winds with an instructor is a perfect time to expand your envelope and get comfortable with those conditions.

The high unforecast winds have happened to me many times now on very long cross countries. Fortunately I've been up with instructors during similar conditions, so I was able to successfully handle them. But I knew that if the conditions exceeded my capabilities I could go around and figure something else out. It's better to figure that stuff out with your instructor now.
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Good perspective.

I'm going back up tomorrow evening, in what is forecast to be about the same conditions as I declined on Monday.
 
PaulS said:
Hi Tom, as I mentioned before wind forecasts are pretty much useless IMO. I still check them, but I take them with a grain of salt. AWOS, metars and ATIS on the other hand are better, far from perfect, but better. Foreflight is nice if you are connected to ads-b weather, you can get fairly recent winds and, at least on the plan I have, you can go into the airport tab, click on runway, and it will give you the wind split into head wind and cross wind. Once again, this can change by the minute, but it gives you a good idea of what to expect.

......


So memorize those 5 angles and the associated crosswind multiplier and you will quickly have a good idea of what you will see when you are close to the ground.
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:) All of that is absolutely accurate, and the engineer in me thinks it's cool. But when I'm flying, I really don't want to do that in my head...and most of the places I go don't have awos, and I'm just going to assume that whatever the wind is, it's going to end up changing to a direct crosswind when I'm about 500' up. So what I do is line up on my final, and course correct to track straight down the runway. If I'm within 5 degrees or so of the runway direction, then there's little crosswind. I'll probably just slip it in. If I'm 20 degrees right, then I've got a decent crosswind from the right, and I kinda need to pay attention. The math part would be crosswind component = tan(flight angle from rw direction) * airspeed. The headwind component I don't really care about, unless it's gusty, and even then it's just to make sure I'm carrying maybe a tiny bit more speed, and more importantly don't let myself get low. Landing? Just land.

Wind speed and especially direction from a forecast can be pretty unpredictable, especially around here, I agree. But the trends are usually better. Or in other words, if it's already gusty, and there's a front starting to move through from the west, then I may stay on the ground. But if it's not too bad now, and it looks like things are clearing up, then different story. Different parts of the country have different things going on. Here in the winter, as you know, things can be weird. Rest of the time, to me not as unpredictable, but maybe that's in my head.

A student and a pilot needs to know the math behind it, you're right. But to learn it, I think you have to fly it.
 
Albany Tom said:
:) All of that is absolutely accurate, and the engineer in me thinks it's cool. But when I'm flying, I really don't want to do that in my head...and most of the places I go don't have awos, and I'm just going to assume that whatever the wind is, it's going to end up changing to a direct crosswind when I'm about 500' up. So what I do is line up on my final, and course correct to track straight down the runway. If I'm within 5 degrees or so of the runway direction, then there's little crosswind. I'll probably just slip it in. If I'm 20 degrees right, then I've got a decent crosswind from the right, and I kinda need to pay attention. The math part would be crosswind component = tan(flight angle from rw direction) * airspeed. The headwind component I don't really care about, unless it's gusty, and even then it's just to make sure I'm carrying maybe a tiny bit more speed, and more importantly don't let myself get low. Landing? Just land.

Wind speed and especially direction from a forecast can be pretty unpredictable, especially around here, I agree. But the trends are usually better. Or in other words, if it's already gusty, and there's a front starting to move through from the west, then I may stay on the ground. But if it's not too bad now, and it looks like things are clearing up, then different story. Different parts of the country have different things going on. Here in the winter, as you know, things can be weird. Rest of the time, to me not as unpredictable, but maybe that's in my head.

A student and a pilot needs to know the math behind it, you're right. But to learn it, I think you have to fly it.
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Yeah, that's the experience part of flying. I'm an engineer too. What I wrote should be taught IMO. It took me longer than it should have to realize how simple it was to figure crosswinds and that within a few knots is probably twice the accuracy you actually need due to the fact that on most days it's varying by that much.

The other one is the way side slips are taught. I was first taught that for side slips, you need to add aileron, then counteracting rudder, and it can vary and blah, blah, blah. One day, when it finally clicked, I realized the easy way to do it. Align the airplane parallel to the runway, use the aileron to stop the airplane from moving sideways off the centerline. If you need more or less aileron, the nose angle will start moving, don't let it with the rudder. No thinking involved, it's a reflex. No more trying to noodle it out, "well I added more right aileron, so I need to add a proportional amount of left rudder". Now it's just keep the nose where it's supposed to be, keep the airplane on the centerline. It's automatic. Run out of rudder? Better start thinking go around. Simple.
 
PaulS said:
Align the airplane parallel to the runway, use the aileron to stop the airplane from moving sideways off the centerline. If you need more or less aileron, the nose angle will start moving, don't let it with the rudder. No thinking involved, it's a reflex. No more trying to noodle it out, "well I added more right aileron, so I need to add a proportional amount of left rudder". Now it's just keep the nose where it's supposed to be, keep the airplane on the centerline. It's automatic. Run out of rudder? Better start thinking go around. Simple.
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That's why taildraggery is useful for skill development. Every landing is done like that.
 
No math needed - just fly the airplane, putting the inputs of aileron and rudder as required.

Crab the airplane down final then transition to a slip during the round out. No point in trying to keep the aircraft aligned with the runway down final since the wind speed and direction will vary, making for a pointless exercise in control jockeying to keep the alignment. Much easier to gently take out a little crab as one gets closer to the runway (where typically the crosswind, whatever it may be, is lower than aloft).

In a high crosswind, keep a little power in and work the upwind wheel onto the ground gently, then set down the downwind wheel and finally the nose wheel if present.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How much wind is acceptable for a training flight?
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Not a direct answer, but a story for your consideration. I was a new PP in 1979. I remember thinking, "Wow! My instructors are SO experienced. They're amazing!" And maybe they were. But they didn't like training in a lot of wind. About a month after I received my certificate, I rented an old 172 for a cross country trip. On return the next day the winds were 24 gusting to 31 and I flipped the plane as I turned off runway 25 after landing. Wind was from 210.

I had already borrowed a bunch of money to start my advanced training a month from then. Even though I later realized my mistake was simply not positioning the controls correctly when turning away from the wind, I told the school that a priority for me was to learn to control an aircraft in any wind condition. No flight cancellations for wind. After I got my CFI, I vowed to never let what happened to me happen to any of my students. There were many days that I was the only plane in the pattern with a student.

For me, this was a good decision. Today I have no problem flying in almost any wind condition. Not in a braggadocios way, but in a confident way. I have many things I can improve on right now, but not knowing how to fly in wind isn't one of them.

Learn how to control the aircraft no matter what is happening. Good luck with your training and future aviation activities. It's way too much fun.
 
Lon Stratton said:
Not a direct answer, but a story for your consideration. I was a new PP in 1979. I remember thinking, "Wow! My instructors are SO experienced. They're amazing!" And maybe they were. But they didn't like training in a lot of wind. About a month after I received my certificate, I rented an old 172 for a cross country trip. On return the next day the winds were 24 gusting to 31 and I flipped the plane as I turned off runway 25 after landing. Wind was from 210.

I had already borrowed a bunch of money to start my advanced training a month from then. Even though I later realized my mistake was simply not positioning the controls correctly when turning away from the wind, I told the school that a priority for me was to learn to control an aircraft in any wind condition. No flight cancellations for wind. After I got my CFI, I vowed to never let what happened to me happen to any of my students. There were many days that I was the only plane in the pattern with a student.

For me, this was a good decision. Today I have no problem flying in almost any wind condition. Not in a braggadocios way, but in a confident way. I have many things I can improve on right now, but not knowing how to fly in wind isn't one of them.

Learn how to control the aircraft no matter what is happening. Good luck with your training and future aviation activities. It's way too much fun.
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I had my PPL about 5 years before someone taught me "climb into, dive away."

That was Bob Hepp at Potomac Airfield. He taught me all the stuff that my original flight school omitted.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I had my PPL about 5 years before someone taught me "climb into, dive away." Bob Hepp at Potomac Airfield. He taught me all the stuff that my original flight school omitted.
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That was about lesson one in the windy place where I learned! You got heavily chewed out for not positioning the controls correctly (and for some reason the chief pilot thought you should know this already somehow cognitively, so many rapped knuckles and clipboard-to-head intersections were par for the course).

On the other hand, the student pilot crosswind limit was 12 knots direct. Otherwise you weren't flying much many days.
 
Steamflyer said:
That was about lesson one in the windy place where I learned! You got heavily chewed out for not positioning the controls correctly (and for some reason the chief pilot thought you should know this already somehow cognitively, so many rapped knuckles and clipboard-to-head intersections were par for the course).
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I was taught it, plus it was on the written I think. But it was an over-complicated breakdown. Led to analysis paralysis when making multiple 90 degree turns on ramps and taxiways. "Climb into, dive away" is simple and quick.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Can you explain this to me?
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It's about positioning the controls while you're taxiing and you should do it 100% of the time, even in light winds. If the wind is in your face, you "climb into" it, meaning you pull back on the yoke or stick and turn it toward where the wind is coming from. If the wind is behind you, you "dive away" from it, meaning you push forward on the yoke or stick and turn it away from where the wind is coming from.

The private pilot knowledge test will ask this in a different way, and you should be prepared to pass that test. You should also understand why these are the control movements that make sense when the plane is on the ground. But when you're struggling to keep the thing under control in gusty surface winds after you pulled off a sketchy crosswind landing in a lightweight taildragger, "climb into, dive away" is a lot easier to remember and to apply in the heat of battle.
 
And to be clear, it's the relative wind, not the "windsock" wind. So while you may dive away from the wind behind you when you start, as you taxi the relative wind can become zero and actually then become a relative headwind. (Fortunately, unless you taxi fairly fast it's not going to bite you if you do it wrong, but an examiner might test to see if you understand the principle.)
 
PaulS said:
Now the pedantic and ocd amongst will point out the inaccuracy of what I do here, but since these numbers all vary anyway, they are close enough.
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Numbers are OK, but like most flight instruction, it's not complete.

What I taught was relative wind. Sure, the crosswind at a certain angle and at a certain windspeed needs to be known and dealt with, but an awful lot of pilots get into trouble after touchdown, when they think the flight is over. Let's look at my numbers. Suppose we have a 15-knot crosswind at 90° to the runway, and we're touching down at 45 knots. The airplane "sees" a 47-knot wind at only 18° off the nose. Perfectly fine for most experienced PPLs, even in a tame taildragger. But as we slow down, that wind comes more and more from the side; it becomes more of a crosswind. At 20 knots the relative wind is now 37° to the nose, at 25 knots; the complacent pilot isn't holding full aileron into it and is depending entirely on the nose- or tailwheel to keep it straight. A small gust can either lift the wing and drag the wingtip, maybe turn the airplane right over onto its nose, or it weathercocks and goes into the rhubarb.

iamtheari said:
It's about positioning the controls while you're taxiing and you should do it 100% of the time
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If you tell the student that the airplane has to be flown until it's tied down, he'll get the point. With a tailwind of any sort, you're flying backwards, and the controls work backwards.

There is the occasional accident when a pilot taxis downwind when the wind is stronger, especially if backtracking on the runway, and turns around when still going too fast. The centrifugal force of that turn, combined with the wind on the side of the airplane, can lift the wing and drag the other wing, and the airplane can go right over onto its back as the wind gets under the tail and lifts it. The "footprint" of a trike, especially, is small between those three wheels, and it will not handle like your car, because it is not a car. Like a duck, it is clumsy on the ground and agile in the air. Driving it like a car results in grief sooner or later.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I had my PPL about 5 years before someone taught me "climb into, dive away."

That was Bob Hepp at Potomac Airfield. He taught me all the stuff that my original flight school omitted.
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Looking around at some of the pilot stuff seen out there, and looking back at my first instructor, I am so grateful that he insisted on proper control inputs on the ground. Even if it was a two or three knot wind, he wanted correct control movement, and from the first lesson taught to fly the plane from when it left the chocks to when it was back in them. It’s paid off more times than I can remember.

He wasn’t a taildragger guy, but told me that someday I’d be flying one, or at least be taxiing in enough wind that no control movement or the wrong one would be costly.
 
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