how much does a turbine cost

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Tantalum, May 4, 2021 at 5:39 PM.

  1. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    ..say if someone was budgeting for something like the turbine powered (not yet released) Velocity.. how much should one assume to spend for a turboprop.. understand there's a wide range of options.. but give me some idea

    ..what about for the small Williams type jet engines that power the Cirrus, Aerostar Jet concept, and other VLJs..

    ..all the Googling I did returns idiotic dumbed down algorithm derived answers telling me how much a GE engine on a 777 costs. Ugh.
     
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  2. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you have to ask...
     
  3. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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  4. falconkidding

    falconkidding Line Up and Wait

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    Just a random data point I think the overhaul on the low power (450hp )pt6s was like 225k. So new would probably be 3-400k. IIRC the blackhawk -135a conversion was 800k plus for a conquest 1.

    Just looking at RR and Pratts figure 1k per HP seems the 250hp are 2-300k and the 500hp range pt6s 400k and up.

    EDIT: turbines also last a lot longer and don't really break. Also easier to fly. If I ever make major airline captain money i'd definitely look into a turbine powered plane.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:13 PM
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  5. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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  6. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Theres a lot of variables on cost with certified or experimental and hp requirement being the top 2. But for a 95hp Solar T-62 for an E/AB helicopter or fixed wing your looking around $15k with decent times left. Need something bigger like a 300hp Allison/RR 250 series (E/AB) then it starts around $100k with high times depending on used market availability. Certified you're looking 2x or 3x that amount. The 3rd price driver is time left on individual components like wheels, etc. So there really isnt a one answer fits all.
     
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  7. Ima Pilot

    Ima Pilot Filing Flight Plan

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  8. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bro do you even lift
    Keep in mind turbine = type rating = insurance costs.
     
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Nice, this is great. Thanks!
     
  10. James_Dean

    James_Dean Pattern Altitude

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    I fly a turbine and don't have a type rating.
     
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  11. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Cirrus sells what is basically a leasing program for that engine. It's something along the price of $800/hour, which I believe covers all the maintenance, inspections and what not. It was described to me a few years ago, so the details are fuzzy, but it ain't cheap.

    Edit, the engine program may have been in the $400 to $500 range, and the $800 more of an unburdened per hour run rate with the engine. I don't remember, but call the Cirrus guy near you, you could probably get a test flight and a rundown.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 6:45 PM
  12. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Sorry, this is more along the lines of something experimental like the velocity or something else.. and turboprop.. which I don't believe requires a type rating
     
  13. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Epic
     
  14. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Yes! Or that! It is a TBM I could actually maybe afford!
     
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  15. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Maybe it is a jet that requires a type rating? I'm sure someone will chime in to set the record straight.
     
  16. tspear

    tspear En-Route

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    About tive years ago the TJP-100 which is going into the Velocity was 115K. Problem is i do not recall if this was Euro or USD.
    Cruise fuel burn was 20 to 25 GPH depending on how hard you ran.

    Tim

    Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Jeff Oslick

    Jeff Oslick En-Route

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    The numbers are correct for "costs", as they present them, but it is certainly not operating costs. It also assumes the airplane depreciates at the same rate you are making payments, which is of course an utterly ridiculous assumption.
     
  18. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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  19. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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  20. Tarheelpilot

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    Over 12,500 lb gross takeoff weight or turbojet require type ratings unless a waiver is issued for the aircraft.
     
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  21. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    So a turboprop does not require a type rating... I didn't think those guys in the turbine bonanzas or silver eagles had types
     
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  22. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    ..12,5K is a lot of plane..
     
  23. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    And just to add, it can be a piston engine aircraft. If it’s over 12,500, it needs a type. It also can be a tiny jet like that cirrus, and it needs a type.
     
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  24. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    what if I fill the moonanza up with 12,500 pounds of 'product', do I need a type rating?
     
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  25. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    No. It’s not really there…
     
  26. RudyP

    RudyP Cleared for Takeoff

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    Turbines cost too much and yet they are really worth it!

    But seriously, it is a complex question because you have fuel, basic MX, doc inspections, engine/parts/labor programs, annual recurrent training including a checkride (in turbojets that require types), insurance, hangar, subscriptions, depreciation, etc... Fuel pricing varies widely and there are several programs (like CAA) that can get you substantial discounts at some airports which adds up quickly when buying Jet A by the hundreds of gallons.

    Overhauling the PW615s on the Mustang I fly is $550K per side for example - it’s not a frequent expense but it’s a big one and that’s almost the tiniest turbofan out there.

    I have a Mustang spreadsheet if you want to see it. The summary is that it is about $250K /year all in for ~150 hours of Mustang flying.
     
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  27. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Geez, you let him get his hands on two throttles connected to a pair of Lycomings on the same airframe and look what happens. :eek:
    Citius - Altius - Fortius. :D
     
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  28. MarkH

    MarkH Pre-takeoff checklist

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  29. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    That's fascinating. The kitplanes article mentioned a FWF kit at 170k. That was 5 years ago.... has anyone heard anything from them since?

    The turbojet its based on is available from sonex for 65k. https://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=17642&category_id=393
     
  30. Justin M

    Justin M Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    Or three or four people will argue back and forth for 7 pages.
     
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  31. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    As noted, it's a really complex answer.

    The most economical turbine is the one you never hit a maintenance event on (and thus never have to maintain). HSI on the MU-2 was $65k or so when I did it, although many do better because they have fewer issues found (that engine was pretty bad).

    TPE-331s are the most economical, with -1s and -2s being the most economical 331s.

    I enjoyed my turbine time, but it really depends on your mission. For us it worked out. I wouldn't buy one for my next plane, though.
     
  32. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you are looking at modern turbines you probably need to think of three pools. The big one is cost of capital, either what the loan costs you or the money you would make investing that money and depreciation. Those are the biggest costs. Now if you have a business use those costs are heavily offset by tax relief and depreciation, as well as increased income that a plane can brong to your business but the reason you don’t see those is they are variable. Some people will lose money if they invest it some will make, YMMV. There is an intangible cost of quality of life. For me the number of nights I spent in my own bed or noghts I saw my kids where I would have otherwise been in a hotel at the mercy of finding an airliner to bring me home or get me out with my schedule. Priceless??

    The second is fixed costs. Annual inspection, or plan minimums, insurance, home hangar, databases, training, property tax, accounting and tax handling. Supplies like cleaners, covers, travel johns, aviation apps foreflight etc. sales tax or (see use tax below)

    The third pool is direct operating costs. These hit you when you fly. Don’t fly doesn’t cost. Things like oil, fuel, away ramp and hangar, cleaning, annual squawks, interim maintenenace, additional plan hours, tires, brakes, use tax (or see sales tax above).

    looking at hourly costs is always going to be skewed. The more you fly, the lower the hourly. But you never know how much you’re going to fly till the end of the year.

    Legacy turbines can be complicated, and old. However, there are some good deals. I only dabble in the modern turbines. In the rough order of all In expense. Meridian/M500< M600< SF50 ?Epic ?Eclipse= TBM940< Mustang< P100 = PC12. Depending on mission, new versus used, hours flown some of those aircraft could trade position a little bit, but it’s pretty accurate. Epic and Eclipse are wild cards as to support and real world costs. Epic is too new, and has too little support right now to really know, and Eclipse is probably heading in the right direction but could go bankrupt and quasi unsupported again. Has been a fragile company like mooney for a long time.