How Many Hours from a 172 to a 414?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

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In conversation with someone, we talked about what it would take in terms of training and flight hours to move to a 414. This person is young with a rapidly growing business tha can financially justify and utilize such an aircraft. He is about a 150 hour private pilot, working on his IR. From where I sit, he appears to be a natural pilot and a quick study.

What would it take in terms of flight and training hours to get there? Would it be better to step up to a much higher performance single for awhile or step directly into the 414 for training toward that end?
 
After his IR I would suggest stepping up to a 414 (yes, it is possible to go direct). If I were him, I would buy a 310 as soon as he finishes the IR and do the multi rating in that plane. Then fly it for a year and step up to the 414. The 310 systems are very similar (minus pressurization) and will transfer to the 414. In that time, the 310 will hold it's value fairly well. The insurance step up will be much easier and more economical.

My $0.02. I have time in both 300 and 400 series Cessnas.
 
Radar Contact said:
After his IR I would suggest stepping up to a 414 (yes, it is possible to go direct). If I were him, I would buy a 310 as soon as he finishes the IR and do the multi rating in that plane. Then fly it for a year and step up to the 414. The 310 systems are very similar (minus pressurization) and will transfer to the 414. In that time, the 310 will hold it's value fairly well. The insurance step up will be much easier and more economical.

My $0.02. I have time in both 300 and 400 series Cessnas.
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I agree. He might also want to roll straight into his commercial ticket while he's at it. He'll need it for business, and it'll be another factor to drive down the insurance requirements which, let's face it, is what we're actually talking about here.
 
NKTFlyer said:
I agree. He might also want to roll straight into his commercial ticket while he's at it. He'll need it for business, and it'll be another factor to drive down the insurance requirements which, let's face it, is what we're actually talking about here.
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No need for a commercial unless he plans to fly other people on the company dime.
 
Depends on how current he will stay in the plane.

But I'd buy it now and do my instrument in it, the more time in that plane he can get the better, and with a plane like that the more instrument instruction he can get in it the better.

Also a CPL doesn't really make enough of a difference to be worth the check ride, nor does a ATP, ask me how I know lol
 
MBDiagMan said:
In conversation with someone, we talked about what it would take in terms of training and flight hours to move to a 414. This person is young with a rapidly growing business tha can financially justify and utilize such an aircraft. He is about a 150 hour private pilot, working on his IR. From where I sit, he appears to be a natural pilot and a quick study
.
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Normally, from my experience as a MEI, it takes anywhere from 10-20 hours to train a ME student, possibly less than 10 if really sharp and/or experienced with more complex planes. I had a bunch of Air Force IPs once as ME students who didn't take long to train but they also had jet experience as an example. They were getting the CL thrust restriction off their certificates. A C414 should fall into the same range with possibly more ground training due to the 414's systems. Just advise your friend not to look for quick subpar training program
 
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The simple answer is, how much money is this guy willing to spend on insurance? That will be the determining factor here. He could buy a 414 today and start flying it tomorrow if he either self insures or has enough money to pay the premium the insurance company will want for coverage.

Now if this guy doesn't want to pay that premium and is seeking ways to get the first year insurance costs reduced, I'd start by getting an instrument rating then buying an entry level twin (Aztec, 310, Baron, etc.) and flying that for a few years and a few hundred hours. I'd expect that the insurance rates would be a lot more reasonable at that point, although for the first year you'd still likely have to go to school for the airplane.
 
Radar Contact said:
After his IR I would suggest stepping up to a 414 (yes, it is possible to go direct). If I were him, I would buy a 310 as soon as he finishes the IR and do the multi rating in that plane. Then fly it for a year and step up to the 414. The 310 systems are very similar (minus pressurization) and will transfer to the 414. In that time, the 310 will hold it's value fairly well. The insurance step up will be much easier and more economical.

My $0.02. I have time in both 300 and 400 series Cessnas.
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:yeahthat: But make sure he calculates in the cost of annual training and the pilot babysitter the insurance company is going to require...:yes:
 
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Really? The question is essentially meaningless, unless you want to know how many miles they are parked away from each other. Are you walking or driving?
Someone could post the minimum number of hours, but everything after that is just wasting time and energy speculating.
That being said, I know a guy who did his PPL in a 414. 55(ish) hours start to finish.
 
You can call it a pilot babysitter and that might be what he choses to get. However, in my opinion the issue isn't flying the plane. If you have decent stick and rudder skills and know and use the appropriate "numbers" for a 414, it's not big deal. Approach speeds are faster than a 172, but you get used to it. The issue isn't the systems. If the pilot has the mental capacity to do some studying, he can figure that stuff out. The issue is the environment, and that can be a big deal. I am particularly talking about weather, although the expectations of ATC and the considerations of pressurization are also a bit different too. You fly a 414 at altitudes where winds aloft, icing, TS avoidance and other things that can really ruin your day are big deals. There are books, and videos and such, but until you've been there and experienced it and made the decisions it's not the same. 10,000 hours in a 172 wouldn't do it. A properly chosen mentor pilot and flying a lot of cross countries can get lower time pilot over that hump. A 414 is a great airplane. But it's more than just hours. It's how you use them.
 
Insurance wise, these days he can pretty easily get into a 414 (or 340 or 421) at 500 hours total time. I've even helped a friend get into a Navajo with 200 hours and no instrument rating, although he had about 100 hours of multi time.

There's a lot to it and at low hours he will want and need to spend time with a good mentor pilot. Personally I do favor starting with something like a 310 and then moving into the 414 a year or two later. It'll make the insurance a lot easier and lets you build some of the important skills in a simpler plane.

I've helped plenty of people on the upgrade path and would be glad to talk to him.
 
MBDiagMan said:
In conversation with someone, we talked about what it would take in terms of training and flight hours to move to a 414. This person is young with a rapidly growing business tha can financially justify and utilize such an aircraft. He is about a 150 hour private pilot, working on his IR. From where I sit, he appears to be a natural pilot and a quick study.

What would it take in terms of flight and training hours to get there? Would it be better to step up to a much higher performance single for awhile or step directly into the 414 for training toward that end?
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I'm a 150 private and was quoted 3,400 for first year in an Aztec with no complex or multi time. I'd expect a 414 to be more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MIFlyer said:
I'm a 150 private and was quoted 3,400 for first year in an Aztec with no complex or multi time. I'd expect a 414 to be more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yep, likely 2-3x that. Depends on the hull value.
 
mondtster said:
The simple answer is, how much money is this guy willing to spend on insurance? That will be the determining factor here. He could buy a 414 today and start flying it tomorrow if he either self insures or has enough money to pay the premium the insurance company will want for coverage.

Now if this guy doesn't want to pay that premium and is seeking ways to get the first year insurance costs reduced, I'd start by getting an instrument rating then buying an entry level twin (Aztec, 310, Baron, etc.) and flying that for a few years and a few hundred hours. I'd expect that the insurance rates would be a lot more reasonable at that point, although for the first year you'd still likely have to go to school for the airplane.
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I've weighed the same decision, but the costs of trading and maintaining the interim plane would likely wash out the first year of two delta in insurance. Time in type weighs heavily WRT insurance premiums. Better to build more time in the plane he'll be flying. Get a good mentor.
 
And the typical annual on this aircraft is what - about $12,000 these days ($17,000 if you are unlucky).

MBDiagMan said:
This person is young with a rapidly growing business
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He is young ... I hope he also has brains to start looking at consequences of operating such complex aircraft, otherwise he may end up being another statistics.
 
olasek said:
And the typical annual on this aircraft is what - about $12,000 these days ($17,000 if you are unlucky).


He is young ... I hope he also has brains to start looking at consequences of operating such complex aircraft, otherwise he may end up being another statistics.
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He has run the numbers and can afford and justify such a plane including annual and, insurance and other costs.

He is extremely level headed! He will be spending lots of time with a mentor pilot and hire a pilot to fly him there while he flies right seat. He is in his mid thirties and has his head on very straight. He won't push the training schedule too fast and is not one for contracting a terminal case of gettheritis.
 
olasek said:
And the typical annual on this aircraft is what - about $12,000 these days ($17,000 if you are unlucky).
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Way higher than $17k if you're unlucky. A good prebuy will generally help with that, but you've got windshields, engine beams, or just an entire engine. These planes can nickel and dime you fast.

With that said, the Twin Cessna membership averaged about $650/hr all in to operate a 414. It gets very bipolar.
 
MBDiagMan said:
He has run the numbers and can afford and justify such a plane including annual and, insurance and other costs.

He is extremely level headed! He will be spending lots of time with a mentor pilot and hire a pilot to fly him there while he flies right seat. He is in his mid thirties and has his head on very straight. He won't push the training schedule too fast and is not one for contracting a terminal case of gettheritis.
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He's extremely level headed and wants to own a twin...
 
Dollars can beat hours any day of the week.

If he's got the dollars and the 414 is where he wants to be, I would suggest he buy the 414 immediately, get the PP-AMEL in it, and then do the rest of his instrument rating in it. By the time he's done with all that, he'll have at least 50 hours in type (likely many more) and will be very used to his airplane. He should find an instructor who will make the instruction "real world" including operating on lots of business trips. (See @Lance F 's post.)
 
I looked at doing the same (but moving from a 172 to a Cessna 340a) as a new pilot with my IR. I was willing to buy the plane and train in it. I called my insurance broker, he called a couple of insurers, they said "No way". The insurance would be at least $25000 for the first year, and that is if he could find anyone to write the policy at all. Neither of the 2 insures he talked to were willing. The 2 insurers suggested starting with a Seneca or similar. Non pressurized, slower, etc.

JH
 
John Hartwick said:
I looked at doing the same (but moving from a 172 to a Cessna 340a) as a new pilot with my IR. I was willing to buy the plane and train in it. I called my insurance broker, he called a couple of insurers, they said "No way". The insurance would be at least $25000 for the first year, and that is if he could find anyone to write the policy at all. Neither of the 2 insures he talked to were willing. The 2 insurers suggested starting with a Seneca or similar. Non pressurized, slower, etc.

JH
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Don't know when this was, but the market has softened a lot. These days I'd say it's doable.

I still think there's a lot of bebefir to having a step up plane and am very glad I didn't just buy a 340 like I wanted to when I bought my Aztec in 2009, though. But back then it wasn't doable to get insurance for that kind of a step up.
 
At 300 hours in a SR20, I went to an Aerostar.
Transition was pretty easy. The harder part is the ADM. For that a good mentor is critical.
Also, the 300 hours in the SR20 was spent flying all over the east coast with a couple of trips to Texas and other gulf states thrown in. I was not the guy who has one hour repeated three hundred times.
So you have to look at the kinds of experience the student has, not just the total time.

Tim
 
Great point Tim! I personally have a lot of one hour at a time with some longer trips also in the book. The person looking at the 414 OTOH has done a good bit of regional cross country business flying in his 172. He has a number of 2, 3 and 4 hour legs in his log. He has seen and made decisions regarding marginal weather and the like. He is not only a great stick, but has a cool head and good instincts.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Great point Tim! I personally have a lot of one hour at a time with some longer trips also in the book. The person looking at the 414 OTOH has done a good bit of regional cross country business flying in his 172. He has a number of 2, 3 and 4 hour legs in his log. He has seen and made decisions regarding marginal weather and the like. He is not only a great stick, but has a cool head and good instincts.
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Personally, I don't feel that the length of legs/trips in hours means as much as distance traveled. The farther away from home a person travels the more likely weather conditions and the overall flying environment will change. It sounds like this guy has taken some trips so his experiences will be more conducive to this kind of a step up than someone who has 300 hours of going out to the local practice area and back.

One of my former students, who is very experienced in several different jets and turboprops was really good at describing the stratification of airplanes. Down low you have the Cubs, the 152s, 172s, etc. At 5-10,000 feet you have the high performance singles and unpressurized piston twins. At 10-20,000 feet you have the pressurized piston twins and singles, and at 20-30,000 feet you have the turboprops. Over 30,000 feet you have the jets. With each step up the ladder you have more capability, responsibility and bigger decisions to make. If you want to start skipping rungs on the ladder you had better be well prepared, willing to learn, and heed the advice of a good mentor because the gaps in the individual's experience may be larger than they realize.

Too bad your friend isn't in the Chicago area. The guy I'm talking about would be a good mentor for your friend. He has experience mentoring people in the 414/421.
 
What's his mission? Understand he has the financial capital to swing it, but does he need that much airplane? Asking seriously....would he be as well served by a turbo 310 or the like?
 
I think you can learn on anything pretty quickly. They used to take (and still do in Europe) 250hr CPL's into the right seat of 737's straight. Or into F-18's. I moved from low time straight into twins myself and didn't find it too overwhelming.
 
stratobee said:
I think you can learn on anything pretty quickly. They used to take (and still do in Europe) 250hr CPL's into the right seat of 737's straight. Or into F-18's. I moved from low time straight into twins myself and didn't find it too overwhelming.
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Actually true however that type of training is very intense. Germany's Lufthansa Airline does it with their pilots, and of course the military of all branches does it. Really different training.

However I'm not saying someone can't do what you stated. Thurmond Munson ended up as a PP w/ a Citation jet. Unfortunately he lost his life in that jet. There are schools that specialize in training on specific aircraft, Fight Safety for example, all over the country.
 
N747JB said:
I had 490 hours in a 182 when I got my multi and bought a 310, flew about 200 hours in it and bought a 414A.
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My story is similar except I skipped the pressurized piston and went right to turboprop. I have read this thread a few times and keep coming back to the same thought. I think my time in the 310 was invaluable to learning the skills of dealing with weather and taking care of a more complicated plane. Icing is a prime example as I was dealing with it all the time in the 310, but in the Conquest it is hardly ever an issue. However, when it is an issue in the Conquest I have the 310 experience to fall back on. Put me in the camp of the jump to 414 as doable, but I'd want a good mentor for 100 hours and a good personal minimums step up plan.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Don't know when this was, but the market has softened a lot. These days I'd say it's doable.

I still think there's a lot of bebefir to having a step up plane and am very glad I didn't just buy a 340 like I wanted to when I bought my Aztec in 2009, though. But back then it wasn't doable to get insurance for that kind of a step up.
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It was two weeks ago... If anyone knows an insurer who would write this policy, I would love to talk to that insurer, even with a 50-75hr co-pilot/mentor transition plan (if I could find the mentor).
 
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