How does cloud surfing work?

kicktireslightfires

kicktireslightfires

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kicktireslightfires
I've watched lots of videos of pilots surfing just feet about the clouds and it looks amazing, but from what I understand the rules are you must maintain 1,000 feet above clouds to stay clear of ascending IFR traffic. So how and where can one cloud surf when VFR?

Thanks in advance from a student pilot!
 
Legal in some instances such as on an IFR flight plan with block altitude authorization from ATC.
 
Below 1200 feet agl. In the coastal areas of NorCal its quite common to get a marine layer of clouds below this height. I used to take advantage of that,
 
Find the cloud tops and bring your surf board. A parachute might be handy too.
 
This is what I remember.
airfoil02.jpg
 
i dont know about your depth perception.... but i cant tell if the cloud is 1000 feet away of 920 feet away while flying, let alone from some YT videos
 
Haha @ some of your answers. Appreciate the laughs!

So is the answer only when 1,200 AGL or below?

Someone said class G, but don't the separation minimums still apply there?

Here's a video so you can see what I'm talking about (and dreaming of). I realize this isn't the USA, so perhaps that's why they can do it, but I'm hoping this is possible in the USA:

 
The pilot in that video I posted above definitely wasn't following some specific course, so I can't imagine he was flying IFR.
 
There is Class G, where the separation rule is "clear of clouds". In almost all of the U.S., it ends at 1200 feet (or 700 feet), and the video looks higher than that. But in other countries, I'm not sure; maybe one can find Class G that goes higher in (I dunno) Australia?

Another possibility is Class B airspace, where again the separation rule is "clear of clouds". In theory, you could ask your ATC controller for some "manuevering" in an area of the Bravo and see if it's OK with them. Pilots on photo missions do this routinely. However, I don't see any large cities in that video.

Another possibility is that the pilot was operating IFR, and again doing this maneuvering with the blessing of his or her controller. Seems unlikely.
 
I have done exactly this while operating IFR - ask for a block of airspace and altitudes, and have at it. I've requested a block like this regularly for training. Usually it's because I want us to stay in the clouds, but also it's fun to fly just above them. Also, showing various illusions as you climb or descend or turn into clouds can be useful.

But I suspect one of the answers to your question of "how it's being done legally", is, often it's not.
 
In my experience I was IFR but just got lucky getting an altitude that keeps me just on top of the puffies
 
kath said:
There is Class G, where the separation rule is "clear of clouds". In almost all of the U.S., it ends at 1200 feet (or 700 feet), and the video looks higher than that. But in other countries, I'm not sure; maybe one can find Class G that goes higher in (I dunno) Australia?
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5500MSL if you go far enough offshore.
 
I've seen aircraft cloud surfing a couple times, while flying above the clouds IFR and being pointed out as traffic. In one case I found the guy, maybe a hundred feet above the cloud deck, zipping along. I told the controller I had him and was surprised he wasn't talking to him. The controller replied he was out side the bravo, I was in it, plus I was about 500 feet above the deck and about a mile from him. It happens.
 
PaulS said:
I've seen aircraft cloud surfing a couple times, while flying above the clouds IFR and being pointed out as traffic. In one case I found the guy, maybe a hundred feet above the cloud deck, zipping along. I told the controller I had him and was surprised he wasn't talking to him. The controller replied he was out side the bravo, I was in it, plus I was about 500 feet above the deck and about a mile from him. It happens.
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Crazy when that happens. I can count on more than one hand how many times I've been IMC and I get a call, something like "traffic two o'clock, 2 miles, opposite direction, not talking to him".. the short "we're IMC" is always a fun reply
 
asicer said:
5500MSL if you go far enough offshore.
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I'm not sure of that. Follow me. If I'm wrong, forgive me. South bound out New Orleans and after you cross the beach, you pass the 12 mile limit. FAR's call this " an Offshore area." It says that it's E airspace above 1200'. Keep going. Now you're in the ADIZ. Airspace stays the same. It's E for about the next 350 NM or so until you're in Mexican airspace. Next stop Merida.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
The pilot in that video I posted above definitely wasn't following some specific course, so I can't imagine he was flying IFR.
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Yes bud, people break all manners of rules, big ones and small ones, all the time for the sake of having fun. I presume you were looking for someone to speak that quiet part out loud for ya. There ya go.

ETA: dang it, post #15 beat me to it :D
 
Maxnr said:
I'm not sure of that. Follow me. If I'm wrong, forgive me. South bound out New Orleans and after you cross the beach, you pass the 12 mile limit. FAR's call this " an Offshore area." It says that it's E airspace above 1200'. Keep going. Now you're in the ADIZ. Airspace stays the same. It's E for about the next 350 NM or so until you're in Mexican airspace. Next stop Merida.
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Let's pick a different shoreline. Go ESE out of KWWD staying out of W-107C and W-386 so those don't confuse the discussion. You'll get to the first chain-link indicating 1700MSL class E, then you'll get to the next chain-link indicating 5500MSL class E and then you get to the ADIZ.
 
WannFly said:
i dont know about your depth perception.... but i cant tell if the cloud is 1000 feet away of 920 feet away while flying, let alone from some YT videos
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IMO that is the big lie in the FARs. None of us have any way to estimate our distance from clouds unless we are actually brushing them. The only thing we have is binocular vision and the FAR distances are too far for that to help. We can only guess and there is no mechanism by which we can learn whether our guesses are right or not. The good news is that no one else (i.e. ATC) knows either.
 
airdale said:
IMO that is the big lie in the FARs. None of us have any way to estimate our distance from clouds unless we are actually brushing them. The only thing we have is binocular vision and the FAR distances are too far for that to help. We can only guess and there is no mechanism by which we can learn whether our guesses are right or not. The good news is that no one else (i.e. ATC) knows either.
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on my PP Ride the DPE asked me how far i was from that cloud, my answer was at least 500 feet (it was above). he was happy with the answer.
FAA doesnt have a tape measure and i dont carry mine while flying
 
airdale said:
IMO that is the big lie in the FARs. None of us have any way to estimate our distance from clouds unless we are actually brushing them. The only thing we have is binocular vision and the FAR distances are too far for that to help. We can only guess and there is no mechanism by which we can learn whether our guesses are right or not. The good news is that no one else (i.e. ATC) knows either.
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Totally makes sense. Thank you and thank you all! :)
 
The short answer is that it's likely that many of the cloud surfing videos show violations, if the flight is under VFR. I will also state that my instructors thought it was good fun to have us do that very thing while training, under VFR, many decades ago.
 
Here's how cloud surfing really works.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
The short answer is that it's likely that many of the cloud surfing videos show violations, if the flight is under VFR. I will also state that my instructors thought it was good fun to have us do that very thing while training, under VFR, many decades ago.
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Yeah, I'm starting to realize it's something that probably a lot of pilots do, but no one talks about!

Given as of January 2020, every plane is required to have ADS-B out, it seems like the safety risk of cloud surfing VFR is vastly reduced as long as you have ADS-B in and are watching for ADS-B traffic and ensure the area is clear and stays clear.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Yeah, I'm starting to realize it's something that probably a lot of pilots do, but no one talks about!

Given as of January 2020, every plane is required to have ADS-B out, it seems like the safety risk of cloud surfing VFR is vastly reduced as long as you have ADS-B in and are watching for ADS-B traffic and ensure the area is clear and stays clear.
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I seriously doubt a lot of pilots do this, in fact I would be surprised if more than a few dumbasses do this as the potential for disaster is huge. ADS-B is not 100 percent effective. I've watched targets appear and disappear from my traffic display. If you want to play in or near the clouds get your instrument rating.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Given as of January 2020, every plane is required to have ADS-B out
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This statement is nowhere near close to being accurate.

Edit to add: It really bothers me that there are pilots out there that actually believe this crap and are actively using ADS-B In as their primary (and it would seem in some cases ONLY) means of traffic avoidance. There are 1000s of active aircraft flying around out there (not to mention other airborne non-aircraft denizens of the sky) that DO NOT have ADS-B Out installed and encountering one of those in flight will kill you and likely them.
 
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kicktireslightfires said:
Yeah, I'm starting to realize it's something that probably a lot of pilots do, but no one talks about!
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Not all. I doubt it is even many.

Many of us with Instrument ratings just get lucky. It's part of the joy of flying. You never know when you are going to find those magic moments.

I've had quite a few flights were I lucked out and was skimming along for at least a few minutes at the top of the layer. Sometimes you get the experience as you start to break out, shallow the climb and get a few extra seconds of surfing. Most of my cloud surfing moments came while being vectored on the approach in SoCal. With the marine layer, you'll often find the tops around 2000-3000 and the step down altitudes will coincidentally have you skimming the tops.
 
There's a few choices for IFR:
1) Block altitude (for vertical),
2) laterally, you can ask for deviations left or right of course (up to x degrees),
3) lateraly, you can get a a sector clearance which removes specific lateral routing ("cleared to fly between the PDZ 090 radial clockwise through PDZ 180 radial up to 15 DME....").

For VFR, Class Bravo, only requires you to remain clear of clouds, so you could do it there.

Lastly, I've had a good number of instances on IFR flights where the assigned altitude is legit within 50ft of the tops for 30nm+ stretches. Sometimes it all works out by itself.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
I've watched lots of videos of pilots surfing just feet about the clouds and it looks amazing, but from what I understand the rules are you must maintain 1,000 feet above clouds to stay clear of ascending IFR traffic. So how and where can one cloud surf when VFR?

Thanks in advance from a student pilot!
Click to expand...

Cloud layers are not always flat and horizontal. You might be surfing a few hundred feet above, but might get quickly engulfed by clouds. The lack of structure makes it very hard to tell how far they really are.
 
smv said:
This statement is nowhere near close to being accurate.

Edit to add: It really bothers me that there are pilots out there that actually believe this crap and are actively using ADS-B In as their primary (and it would seem in some cases ONLY) means of traffic avoidance. There are 1000s of active aircraft flying around out there (not to mention other airborne non-aircraft denizens of the sky) that DO NOT have ADS-B Out installed and encountering one of those in flight will kill you and likely them.
Click to expand...

How is that not accurate? I thought every plane is required to have ADS-B out as of Jan 2020? What is inaccurate about that?
 
kicktireslightfires said:
How is that not accurate? I thought every plane is required to have ADS-B out as of Jan 2020? What is inaccurate about that?
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ADS-B is NOT required for every airplane. It’s only required if you want to fly in airspace where it’s required. There are a whole lot of people flying outside of Class B and C and find no need for it.
 
RussR said:
ADS-B is NOT required for every airplane. It’s only required if you want to fly in airspace where it’s required. There are a whole lot of people flying outside of Class B and C and find no need for it.
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Okay, so ADS-B is only a requirement inside of a Class C or B, much like a transponder is only required within 30nm of a Class B?
 
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