How do I find a part 61 Flight Instructor in Jacksonville Florida also buying an airplane? y/n

Brendon · Nov 6, 2020

I know this may seem like a bad idea but hear me out. If you still think its a bad idea let me know in the comments.

I currently have my PPL and about 45 hours.
My plan is to get my ATP, starting with IFR, Commercial, Multi-Engine, CFI, CFII, then build hours as a flight instructor, sight-seeing tour operator, whatever I can do to make money and build hours.

My plan is to get this done as quickly as possible. Get to CFII in 6-12 months.

I am going to do all the writtens and ground training before I even start training so I will be 100% focused on the flying aspect and devoting 100% of my time to it (as weather allows).

I am saving up $30,000 before I start training. Then during training I will hold a part time job and use a loan/credit cards to make up the other $30,000 I think I will need. I know its best to save it all up in cash, and that is something I will consider. I could work for another year and save up another $30,000. Might be a better idea.

Now here is the part that is probably not the best decision, I plan on spending about $25,000-$30,000 to buy an airplane to do my training with. I could also finance the plane and use that money to do my training as I'm sure the rates would be better than an unsecured loan. Then finding a flight instructor willing to work with me and I will pay him/her directly as we do training, and keeping up with the costs of the airplane. That's where the other $35,000 comes in. (I figure $110 per hour for the plane x200 hours + $60 per hour for the instructor x 150 hours this leaves me $4000 and I probably wont even need 150 hours with the instructor). After this I will use the plane to train other students I can find myself until I build enough hours for ATP. At that point I will either sell it or keep it depending on my financial situation at the time. So I will be putting about 1500 hours on the plane in the 2-3 years I have it. Obviously I would need to rent a multi-engine to do that part of my training but that is only a small part (unless I bought a twin lol). There are pros and cons to this

Pros:
No scheduling issues (except for the instructor but my understanding is commercial is mostly solo anyways)
I can park the plane at the closest airport to me (otherwise might need to drive upwards of 45 minutes)
If I sell the plane at the end this option is much cheaper for me overall than renting a plane the entire time or going through a part 141 school
I will have my own plane, that's pretty cool right?

Cons:
Maintenance issues could delay/end/significantly increase the cost of my training
Counter Point 1. even if the plane is down for maintenance I could rent a plane for about $30-$50 more than the operating costs of my own (when I take into account money put aside for routine/unplanned maintenance etc) , so if this is only an issue some of the time it won't significantly increase costs assuming it is not too many hours.
Counter Point 2. If a major maintenance issue comes up that would be cost prohibitive or if the aircraft turns out to be a lemon I can just sell it as is or at least get it running and sell it. I would loose money for sure but assuming this happens a decent amount of hours in I should still come out on top (if I save an $60 per hour using my own plane and I lost $10k on it as long as I had it for over 165 hours or so I would break even).

Finding an instructor/Finding students once I am an instructor is not guaranteed

No networking/benefits of going to a part 141 school

If this went particularly poorly could destroy me financially

I understand owning an airplane is very expensive and a risk. But whether I buy an airplane or rent I am going to be spending $50,000-$60,000 regardless. Might as well own a plane at the end of that.

I could also do a partner situation if I could find someone. But I prefer not to have to depend on other people for planning purposes.

If you think this is not a terrible idea (probably the minority). Airplane suggestions would be great. It would need to be IFR equipped obviously so a Cessna 150 probably wouldn't work (would also be a drag on cross countries). I was thinking a Piper Cherokee 140/180 or a Cessna 172. I prefer the cherokee's as that is what I did my PPL training in but a Cessna would be better if I eventually did sightseeing tours or aerial photography or something like that. With the amount of hours I would be putting on the airplane anything over 500 hours wouldn't work unfortunately as even if I was ok with going past the overhaul recommendation of 2000 hours I couldn't use it for commercial operations past that and an overhaul would be cost prohibitive.

Some quick math to determine operating costs:
Tie down fees $55 or $210 for a hangar (depends on how nice the plane is if I would be willing to spend the extra $$$)
Insurance for me I expect $1200 a year but I am sure that will go up when I start using it as an instructor
Figure fuel $5 a gallon x 8 gallons per hour = $40 an hour
Whatever is left over out of $110 per hour (should be a decent amount) will be put aside for maintenance.

I am basing most of my hourly operation costs on this article (which my numbers are much more generous for maintenance than theirs)
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraf...craft/hypothetical-operating-cost-calculation

Whatever plan I decide on, I am starting May of 2021 (unless I take a few more months/a year to save up more $$$)

I am realizing my price range for an aircraft of below 500 hours is unrealistic. Could you suggest a more realistic number? Or would it be best to go for a 1000 hour airplane and bite the bullet on an overhaul at 2000?

I should also mention, my dad has a 1962 cherokee 180 but it has been sitting on a trailer in pieces for about 8 years now and the engine has over 2000 hours on it. It was running fine before he took it apart he just didn't have the time to use it and didn't want to pay tie-down fees. But it would be free? I figured it probably isn't worth the effort what do you think? I am thinking it would cost $10,000-$15,000 to get it up and running + another $20,000 for the overhaul which might be needed immediately or after a couple hundred hours (I believe its at 2100 or 2200)

Is this place legit? Seems to be pretty much exactly what I am looking for. I could fly up there and get everything done in less than a month
https://gatts.org/pilot-training-courses.html

Thanks!

Brendon · Nov 6, 2020

RussR · Nov 6, 2020

Brendon said:
even if I was ok with going past the overhaul recommendation of 2000 hours I couldn't use it for commercial operations past that and an overhaul would be cost prohibitive.

I'll leave commenting on the other stuff to others, but as far as this goes, if by "commercial operations" you mean flight instructing, there is no prohibition on flight instruction past TBO. Run it as long as you want. Especially if you're flying it as much as you plan to, that engine will last forever. I'm operating an airplane right now, for flight instruction, that has about 2070 SMOH.

Brendon · Nov 6, 2020

RussR said:
I'll leave commenting on the other stuff to others, but as far as this goes, if by "commercial operations" you mean flight instructing, there is no prohibition on flight instruction past TBO. Run it as long as you want. Especially if you're flying it as much as you plan to, that engine will last forever. I'm operating an airplane right now, for flight instruction, that has about 2070 SMOH.

Really? I thought this was a requirement as well as the 100hr inspections.

Ryan F. · Nov 6, 2020

Brendon,

I only needed to briefly scan your post before starting my reply. In my opinion, the numbers aren't going to work. Even the most inexpensive, airworthy airplane capable of getting you through instrument and commercial (sans the 10-hour TAA/complex requirement -- assuming the 'inexpensive' airplane is neither) is going to pull a lot of resources in the DOC (direct operating costs) department not to mention expenses such as tie-down, annual inspections, etc. Any surprise big-ticket maintenance item could sink the ship, so to speak. Then you have the challenge of learning aircraft ownership while also learning to fly and trying to start a career. The education of "how" to own an airplane is a challenge in its own right and would likely distract you from your goal. In addition, it's quite possible you'll spend more rather than less to get from point A to point B. With a fair amount of luck it may be possible to realize some savings, but you'll also lack flexibility in changing your path due to the ownership issue. (Insurance, local flight instructor, maybe you want to move, etc., etc.) In other words, even in the best case scenario, I'm not sure you'd really enjoy much of a benefit at the end of the day.

There are number of other issues I can think of off the top of my head, but I'd suggest just focusing on finding high-quality, cost-effective training which is convenient for your life situation and moving down that road with focus and intensity. You're going to find that many if not most "best laid plans" in aviation career paths get diverted due to all kinds of outside influencers. My suggestion is to keep things simple: be "lean and mean," i.e. prudent with your personal finances. Funnel those resources directly into training, one hour at a time. Spend the time you would have spent looking for and buying an aircraft meeting with local flight schools and instructors you could envision working with in an accelerated training setting.

Good luck,

Brendon · Nov 6, 2020

Ryan F. said:
Brendon,

I only needed to briefly scan your post before starting my reply. In my opinion, the numbers aren't going to work. Even the most inexpensive, airworthy airplane capable of getting you through instrument and commercial (sans the 10-hour TAA/complex requirement -- assuming the 'inexpensive' airplane is neither) is going to pull a lot of resources in the DOC (direct operating costs) department not to mention expenses such as tie-down, annual inspections, etc. Any surprise big-ticket maintenance item could sink the ship, so to speak. Then you have the challenge of learning aircraft ownership while also learning to fly and trying to start a career. The education of "how" to own an airplane is a challenge in its own right and would likely distract you from your goal. In addition, it's quite possible you'll spend more rather than less to get from point A to point B. With a fair amount of luck it may be possible to realize some savings, but you'll also lack flexibility in changing your path due to the ownership issue. (Insurance, local flight instructor, maybe you want to move, etc., etc.) In other words, even in the best case scenario, I'm not sure you'd really enjoy much of a benefit at the end of the day.

There are number of other issues I can think of off the top of my head, but I'd suggest just focusing on finding high-quality, cost-effective training which is convenient for your life situation and moving down that road with focus and intensity. You're going to find that many if not most "best laid plans" in aviation career paths get diverted due to all kinds of outside influencers. My suggestion is to keep things simple: be "lean and mean," i.e. prudent with your personal finances. Funnel those resources directly into training, one hour at a time. Spend the time you would have spent looking for and buying an aircraft meeting with local flight schools and instructors you could envision working with in an accelerated training setting.

Good luck,

I am spending $60k regardless. Even if the airplane ended up costing me $60k which I don't think is likely (but not impossible) I would break even when I sell it.

You don't think $110 an hour flying a plane 500 hours a year, with tie down fees of $55 a month is realistic?
Based on the aopa article with much higher tie down fees they came out to $75 an hour for 300 hours a year.

Even in the case of a catastrophic maintenance issue, like I said I am not out everything I can still sell the plane at a loss and assuming I have had it long enough (165 hours assuming I loose 10k) I still break even.
You think with my planned flying schedule it is likely that a plane with 500-1000 hours on the engine with a thorough pre buy inspection would have a catastrophic failure in less than 4 months?

I get it is expensive, I am not bothered by the learning process. But I am going to be spending a **** ton regardless. Why pay for someone else's plane?

If I am truly wrong don't think I am trying to argue. I really am just trying to understand what I am missing here other than the slim chance everything goes really poorly beyond what I am already planning for (which I would estimate is less than 10%).

Ryan F. · Nov 7, 2020

Brendon said:
If I am truly wrong don't think I am trying to argue. I really am just trying to understand what I am missing here other than the slim chance everything goes really poorly beyond what I am already planning for (which I would estimate is less than 10%).

No one is right and no one is wrong. This isn't a binary, black and white sort of situation. You have to do what's right for you. I'm just providing feedback which is based on watching people try various creative ways to earn the necessary pilot certificates and ratings for a professional flying career, over the last 20 years.

Could you make this work? Yes, that is a nonzero possibility. Is a $60k budget to train on an accelerated basis for a minimum of one year; purchase an airplane; pay DOCs, unscheduled maintenance, etc., insurance, etc. realistic? In my opinion, no. I'd be looking for at least double that budget to make it work because everything will cost more. The first annual can be a doozy even with an effective pre-buy. The cost of maintenance is always higher. The components you didn't expect to break, will break. The delays from weather, maintenance, etc. can stack up and you're holding on to an asset which becomes a liability which you can't use in the interim. It's a relatively complicated financial matrix and your best-case scenario is fairly unlikely in my opinion, even assuming the most inexpensive training aircraft out there... I don't know if you've checked the market lately but the values for the average C-152, C-172, Piper Warrior, etc. are through the roof compared to where they were a few years ago.

Last year a friend asked me to test fly a C-150 he was interested in purchasing. I was unimpressed as I approached the plane. The paint was old and there was rust evident. The interior was ratty and the avionics were ancient. It had not been updated to ADS-B Out. The engine was mid-time without much of a pedigree, and had sat for long periods of time during its life. (Not good.) The asking price was $27k. In years past I'd have thought this was a $10k parts airplane, but they stuck to their price and I do believe they successfully sold it sometime thereafter. I have a designee colleague looking to expand his flight school by purchasing another Cessna 172, but he can't find one in good shape for a reasonable price. He's been looking for at least six months now.

I know airplane ownership is appealing but I'd suggest you think about your training a different way. Flexibility, quality of training and preservation of capital are the key players in your success in the next few years. Owning an airplane won't improve your odds of achieving that success, it will simply be a complicated factor in achieving your goal. Is it possible to come out a little bit ahead of where you would have been, if you purchase an airplane up front? Yes, but fairly improbable. In aviation the challenge for most of us early on is putting one foot in front of the other and continuing down the path to our goal despite the many inevitable obstacles which present themselves. If you're dealing with aircraft ownership in the midst of that your ability to be nimble and keep scrambling up the path to your goal is diminished. Think of the many variables: medical, weather, mechanical, life circumstances (job) which can change at the drop of a hat. Being an airplane owner makes dealing with those unexpected challenges all the more onerous.

I'll leave it at that. If I were in your shoes I'd wait until I was doing well in aviation (which isn't that far down the road, really) and buy a nice airplane which you'll enjoy and be able to afford.

Ryan F. · Nov 7, 2020

Can't resist. I can think of a hundred or so anecdotal tales about aircraft ownership vis-a-vis surprise maintenance expenses, but here are a few:

Colleague of mine owns a C-172 and C-152 which she uses for flight training (he son is a CFI) and she conducts practical tests in them. She's spent $5k alone over the last six months chasing a nosewheel shimmy problem which no one can figure out on her C-172. The issue remains.
The exhaust stack suddenly cracked on my left engine earlier this year, a very-well maintained IO-320. I was down $1500 immediately, and the plane was down for two weeks.
A new set of decent tires (you'll run through them regularly) is going to run anywhere from $300-$600, or even more, installed.
I spent thousands of dollars chasing an intermittent audio failure problem on my airplane over the course of years. Turned out to be a wire chafing against the skin of the fuse where it was bundled up behind the upholstery. I went through three avionics shops trying to chase this down so that doesn't even include the time and money spent flying the airplane to the shop, waiting for them to work on it, and picking it up again.
Local flight school has a single airplane in which they train. I've flown it a few times and it's always been just fine. They just found metal in the oil filter last week. The airplane will be down for at least a month, possibly two while they work on getting a factory reman engine to replace it.

These are all manageable issues when your owned aircraft isn't integral to the success of your training objectives. But in your case...

Jim Carpenter · Nov 7, 2020

Ryan F. has great advice. I'd like to emphasize one point in your idea, DO NOT GO INTO DEBT for your training. Sure, many have done so on the path to professional aviator status, but IMHO it's a terrible idea. Aviation employment is extremely volatile, always has been, current example is how much covid-19 has drastically shrunk many sectors of aviation. You do not want to be furloughed while obligated to pay a large monthly loan bill.

How do I find a part 61 Flight Instructor in Jacksonville Florida also buying an airplane? y/n

Brendon

Pre-Flight

Brendon

Pre-Flight

RussR

En-Route

Brendon

Pre-Flight

Ryan F.

Cleared for Takeoff

Brendon

Pre-Flight

Ryan F.

Cleared for Takeoff

Ryan F.

Cleared for Takeoff

Jim Carpenter

Line Up and Wait