How do I enter this into a GTN 750?

[the400kid]

I was given this flight plan yesterday from KSPG to my home base at KFXE. I've seen radial/distance fixes before but was never actually assigned one to fly and was puzzled how I would enter it into the GTN. In the end I was told to go direct to PHK, but if the flight plan wasn't modified, how would I fly this?

CROWD PHK315015 PHK KFXE

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's a fairly easy one for a user waypoint. I blew the numbers by reversing them, but you get the idea.

 

[the400kid]

Sure about this? Looking at the flight plan as depicted on Flightware, it appears the white dashed line would have had me flying direct to PHK, then cutting over to intercept the radial as I approached the 15 mile mark. What you programmed assumed that I was to fly the 315 radial the entire way from CROWD. This is why I'm so confused by the routing.

 

[eman1200]

That's a fairly easy one for a user waypoint. I blew the numbers by reversing them, but you get the idea...

is this what you would do mid-flight if given this amendment?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sure about this? Looking at the flight plan as depicted on Flightware, it appears the white dashed line would have had me flying direct to PHK, then cutting over to intercept the radial as I approached the 15 mile mark. What you programmed assumed that I was to fly the 315 radial the entire way from CROWD. This is why I'm so confused by the routing.

View attachment 68138

No. All I did was create a point in space defined by a radial and distance. The clearance you described was to fly to CROWD and then to that point in space.

 

[midlifeflyer]

is this what you would do mid-flight if given this amendment?

I guess it could happen, but the only times I've heard discussions of a clearance like this have been on an initial clearance, as in the original post.

Would I accept it and create a user waypoint if given, say, a direct to it while in flight? Single pilot? No. Too much workload for me.

Edit. I'll change that to a maybe. It might depend on where I was at the time and how far away the waypoint would be. The problem with it is that it's unusual, kind of like an ad hoc hold with the holding fix a distance off a radial. the GTN is designed to do both, but if you get them rarely, it's a skill which is not kept up.

 

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, here's what it looks like in ForeFlight. @the400kid, all I did was copy and paste what you posted.

 

[bflynn]

It's not a DME arc, which is what it sound like you're confusing it. It's just a waypoint. In the GTN, create by radial reference is on of the ways to create a user waypoint.

 

[mr_happyland]

I've never heard of ATC assigning a radial/distance fix. Anybody else get one of these before?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've never heard of ATC assigning a radial/distance fix. Anybody else get one of these before?

I've heard if them, but never got one. If you look at common clearances between PIE and FXE, Radial/Distance fixes off PHK appear in a few. It was a capability of the "old" VOR-based RNAV boxes.

On this one, I'd be curious about why. It's so close to CROWD PHK as to be inconsequential.

 

[AggieMike88]

I've never heard of ATC assigning a radial/distance fix. Anybody else get one of these before?

Yes... a number of times.

And then because there is a plethora of named fixes in the database, I'll also use FF to see if there is a named fix "close enough" to the assigned VOR/radlial/dme that I can use that to program the GPS.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sort of on the same topic...

I have heard this before from ATC in the PHX area... "cross 25 miles east of Willie, at or above XXX." Willie is the IWA Vortac.

Not knowing the routing, the airplane may have been on the 090 radial inbound making this a rather simple instruction. However, if an airplane was elsewhere and not flying directly to the VORTAC that clearance would be vague to me. The airplanes always read back the instruction like it's no big deal and never ask for clarification.

Is "east" exactly the 090 radial or is it generally east of the VORTAC? This would be a situation I would program a radial and distance into the GTN.

Or outbound.

That's the catch. You don't know the routing. Context is everything. Crossing restrictions are very common and every one I've heard in flight has been a simple instruction. You are already on a course that brings you east of the VOR. It's not necessarily east of the 090 degree radial. More of a quadrant thing.

They read it back like it's no big deal because it isn't, except perhaps determining what climb or descent rate is needed to meet it.

 

[GBSoren]

ULLMN intersection is 15mn from PHK on the 315 radial. Why wouldn't ATC just given you that intersection?

 

[AggieMike88]

ULLMN intersection is 15mn from PHK on the 315 radial. Why wouldn't ATC just given you that intersection?

While that intersection exists at that point, it might not be part of the route structure they can give for that particular instance.

An example is the routing I sometimes get going from KDTO toward Tulsa. I'll be given a specific radial/DME off of the Ardmore VOR (ADM), and when I look, that matches up very close to a intersection named LOWGN.

But while LOWGN is a valid fix in the database, it is one of the enroute intersections on the High Enroute Chart. So it's something ATC cannot give to me as part of my departure and enroute clearance since I'm operating in the Low Enroute environment.

But, by using ForeFlight to identify that LOWGN is also defined by similar lat/long as the radial/DME off of ADM that I was issued, I can input that into my GPS box.

Same with how you identified ULLMN.

 

[GBSoren]

While that intersection exists at that point, it might not be part of the route structure they can give for that particular instance.

An example is the routing I sometimes get going from KDTO toward Tulsa. I'll be given a specific radial/DME off of the Ardmore VOR (ADM), and when I look, that matches up very close to a intersection named LOWGN.

But while LOWGN is a valid fix in the database, it is one of the enroute intersections on the High Enroute Chart. So it's something ATC cannot give to me as part of my departure and enroute clearance since I'm operating in the Low Enroute environment.

But, by using ForeFlight to identify that LOWGN is also defined by similar lat/long as the radial/DME off of ADM that I was issued, I can input that into my GPS box.

Same with how you identified ULLMN.

Thanks for the explanation, maybe that's why they give you that "spot", knowing it's pretty much at that fix, so the pilot can use it in there box.

I had a hard time getting 15nm on the 315 radial from PHK programmed in on my IFD100 app (just working from my desk), but using ULLMN worked the same.

 

[Tantalum]

I've seen radial/distance fixes before but was never actually assigned one to fly

I get that fairly common flying up the coast here in Southern California... typically they'll have you fly a radial after SMO VOR then another radial. Honestly, the whole user waypoint creation, etc., seems like more work than just writing it down and switching to VLOC mode with the radial and flying that

For the "cross X 10 miles north at or below Y" you can do things with VTK offset, etc., but again it's just easier to check the distance on a map and just fire in a descent rate that will help you get there by the required point

What's crazy to me is how often you actually get these types of instructions here. With the myriad of waypoints, routes, and the wonder of RNAV / GPS it's amazing to me that someone will still tell you to fly X radial for Y miles, etc.

 

[EminiTrader]

I've never heard of ATC assigning a radial/distance fix. Anybody else get one of these before?

Orlando Departure gives them all the time flying out of MCO

 

[AggieMike88]

What's crazy to me is how often you actually get these types of instructions here. With the myriad of waypoints, routes, and the wonder of RNAV / GPS it's amazing to me that someone will still tell you to fly X radial for Y miles, etc.

@RussR .... Any insight from our resident charting office insider?

 

[midlifeflyer]

ULLMN intersection is 15mn from PHK on the 315 radial. Why wouldn't ATC just given you that intersection?

No doubt someone would then complain about giving an enroute intersection which is not on the low enroute chart.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I sometime do short instructional videos to illustrate things. I've started and stopped doing a GTN user waypoint one a few times. This thread was a good excuse to finally get'er done! Thanks @the400kid. I even used your clearance.

 

[eman1200]

I sometime do short instructional videos to illustrate things. I've started and stopped doing a GTN user waypoint one a few times. This thread was a good excuse to finally get'er done! Thanks @the400kid. I even used your clearance.

how 'bout getting some instruction on how to not make videos private?

 

[midlifeflyer]

how 'bout getting some instruction on how to not make videos private?

LOL. I tried using the new Studio beta. It set the video to default at "private" and it stayed private even after I changed it to public. At this point, even I can't view it when I'm signed in as the author, although I was able to delete it. So much for beta. I'm re-uploading and will re-link (I hope).

Working now!

 

[mr_happyland]

I sometime do short instructional videos to illustrate things. I've started and stopped doing a GTN user waypoint one a few times. This thread was a good excuse to finally get'er done! Thanks @the400kid. I even used your clearance.

Awesome. Thanks for putting that together. I have a 650...so I'll open up the app and try it on there. Then I won't be as clueless if ATC ever assigns that to me, LOL.

 

[GBSoren]

Playing with the IFD training app on my ipad I found how you do this on the IFD series. The IFD has a user waypoint tab to create a user defined waypoint, that process is similar to the GTN, select new, change to rad/dis, pretty simple. Once created you can select that waypoint using the rubber banding feature on the map page. I have not figured out how to just insert a user created waypoint into flightplan or select it while creating the flightplan on the FMS page.

 

[gacoon]

I've never heard of ATC assigning a radial/distance fix. Anybody else get one of these before?

Yup, departing N Las Vegas ifr, clearance was given on the ground

 

[midlifeflyer]

Playing with the IFD training app on my ipad I found how you do this on the IFD series. The IFD has a user waypoint tab to create a user defined waypoint, that process is similar to the GTN, select new, change to rad/dis, pretty simple. Once created you can select that waypoint using the rubber banding feature on the map page. I have not figured out how to just insert a user created waypoint into flightplan or select it while creating the flightplan on the FMS page.

I'm far less familiar with the IFD, but I think the primary difference is how the waypoint is created. The FPL screen only looks to waypoints already in the system, and rejects the "new" name rather than prompt you to create a user waypoint.

You need to create the user waypoint in the WPT screen first. But once you do, the system recognizes it and you can enter it in the flight plan just like any other. You do not need to rubber band to it.

https://jmp.sh/3CzIuqD (video on Jumpshare. Can't embed. Not even sure if will work )

 

[GBSoren]

I'm far less familiar with the IFD, but I think the primary difference is how the waypoint is created. The FPL screen only looks to waypoints already in the system, and rejects the "new" name rather than prompt you to create a user waypoint.

You need to create the user waypoint in the WPT screen first. But once you do, the system recognizes it and you can enter it in the flight plan just like any other. You do not need to rubber band to it.

https://jmp.sh/3CzIuqD (video on Jumpshare. Can't embed. Not even sure if will work )

Got it, thanks!

 

[RussR]

@RussR .... Any insight?

Nope. That would be a good question for ATC though. I imagine most of it has to do with coordination fixes between facilities and existing letters of agreement on hand-offs of aircraft.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

, seems like more work than just writing it down and switching to VLOC mode with the radial and flying that

Sometimes I miss the good old days before gps. Read a map, tune the VOR and set the course. Ready to fly. Lot less complicated than it is now

 

[eman1200]

Sometimes I miss the good old days before gps. Read a map, tune the VOR and set the course. Ready to fly. Lot less complicated than it is now

I vaguely remember that 'VOR' thingy from primary training....

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I vaguely remember that 'VOR' thingy from primary training....

It’s funny some of the reactions I’ve seen from other pilots when the gps is broken.

 

[eman1200]

It’s funny some of the reactions I’ve seen from other pilots when the gps is broken.

that happened to me once....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sometimes I miss the good old days before gps. Read a map, tune the VOR and set the course. Ready to fly. Lot less complicated than it is now

I don't. Yes it is more complicated. There is definitely a learning curve, steeper for some than for others. And while a VOR is a VOR is VOR (for the most part), the variation among GPS units along product lines (even from the same manufacturer) is pretty broad. It is much harder to hop into an airplane with something different. But once you reach a level of proficiency with the one or two you typically use, I think it makes life so much easier.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sort of on the same topic...

I have heard this before from ATC in the PHX area... "cross 25 miles east of Willie, at or above XXX." Willie is the IWA Vortac.

Not knowing the routing, the airplane may have been on the 090 radial inbound making this a rather simple instruction. However, if an airplane was elsewhere and not flying directly to the VORTAC that clearance would be vague to me. The airplanes always read back the instruction like it's no big deal and never ask for clarification.

Is "east" exactly the 090 radial or is it generally east of the VORTAC? This would be a situation I would program a radial and distance into the GTN.

"East" is "generally east" in that situation, so if you're coming in on the 120 (you're flying 300) for example, it would just be "20 miles before the VOR on the path you're currently flying." It does NOT mean "when you cross a perfect north-south line 20 miles east", nor does it mean adding a waypoint to your flight plan on the 090 radial at 20 miles.

You also don't need a user waypoint for this situation on the GTN, if you have the latest software (6.50) which was released around Oshkosh 2018 and includes new VNAV features. Just go to your flight plan, tap the waypoint (IWA in your example above), hit "along track" and punch in 20 miles and the Before button. You'll get an "IWA-20" waypoint added to the flight plan, and you can touch that and add an altitude if you'd like as well. Pretty slick, even more so if you have an autopilot that can follow it!

 

[Tantalum]

tune the VOR and set the course

Honestly, that's why if I get a VOR radial I just switch to VOR and fly that.. just easier than fumbling with the Garmin

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks. Did not know that feature existed. I haven't installed the latest revision yet but plan to at next IFR cert.

For location, if the VOR is the active waypoint, it's pretty easy to just watch the distance countdown (like old fashioned DME ). The nice thing about the updated functionality (yeah, it's been standard in the IFR for a long time) is the VNAV function. You can set the crossing restriction and the unit paints a TOD on the map and prompts your descent based on your ground speed and VNAV preferences. I'm not completely sure, but I think it is still missing a prompt for what VSI you need to get down if you are already past your TOD and ATC set you up for a slam dunk.

 

[Tantalum]

For location, if the VOR is the active waypoint, it's pretty easy to just watch the distance countdown (like old fashioned DME ). The nice thing about the updated functionality (yeah, it's been standard in the IFR for a long time) is the VNAV function. You can set the crossing restriction and the unit paints a TOD on the map and prompts your descent based on your ground speed and VNAV preferences. I'm not completely sure, but I think it is still missing a prompt for what VSI you need to get down if you are already past your TOD and ATC set you up for a slam dunk.

Nice post!

I think you can recalculate the vertical descent profile needed after the fact, I believe it to be on one of the utility menus., the number is live so it keeps changing and calculating. I haven't flown GTN 650/750 in a while, but on the perspective it will tell you how far off the vertical track you are

They're cool toys and tools, but for the occasional time you have to use it it's just easier in many situations to do some quick maths and descend down without extra button pushing. Plus on the G1000 you get the little line showing when you'll reach the target altitude, so you can toggle the VS up or down to stay on target

 

[midlifeflyer]

Nice post!

I think you can recalculate the vertical descent profile needed after the fact, I believe it to be on one of the utility menus., the number is live so it keeps changing and calculating. I haven't flown GTN 650/750 in a while, but on the perspective it will tell you how far off the vertical track you are

It is. There is a way to show it on the GTN Map. You can change the user fields, so take one of the four you don't care that much about and change it to VSR. The number of fields is limited which makes the choice difficult, but it can also be done in the 430/530, so it's not a bad idea for a dual installation.

OTOH, some of our EFBs can do it pretty quickly.

 

[luvflyin]

Sort of on the same topic...

I have heard this before from ATC in the PHX area... "cross 25 miles east of Willie, at or above XXX." Willie is the IWA Vortac.

Not knowing the routing, the airplane may have been on the 090 radial inbound making this a rather simple instruction. However, if an airplane was elsewhere and not flying directly to the VORTAC that clearance would be vague to me. The airplanes always read back the instruction like it's no big deal and never ask for clarification.

Is "east" exactly the 090 radial or is it generally east of the VORTAC? This would be a situation I would program a radial and distance into the GTN.

Generally East. On whatever route was already assigned. There should be no need to program anything. Just be at or above XXX when 25 miles east from IWA. You may be outbound or inbound on roughly somewhere between the 070 and 110 radials. Or you may have been cleared direct INW and are heading roughly westbound. If you needed to program in a fix for some reason, I can't think why though, it would be the radial you are already cleared on and the distance. Like say INW080025

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It is. There is a way to show it on the GTN Map. You can change the user fields, so take one of the four you don't care that much about and change it to VSR. The number of fields is limited which makes the choice difficult, but it can also be done in the 430/530, so it's not a bad idea for a dual installation.

On the 750, you get four in the corners of the map, but you get more if you don't have the remote audio panel and transponder. We have the "local" versions of both, though the GTN can still control the transponder, and then we have four extra fields at the top. That's plenty.

Generally East. On whatever route was already assigned. There should be no need to program anything. Just be at or above XXX when 25 miles east from IWA. You may be outbound or inbound on roughly somewhere between the 070 and 110 radials. Or you may have been cleared direct INW and are heading roughly westbound. If you needed to program in a fix for some reason, I can't think why though, it would be the radial you are already cleared on and the distance. Like say INW080025

Again, no need to program it as radial/distance if you have the latest software rev, you can put in an "along track" waypoint.