How big of a deal is hail damage?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by bflynn, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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  2. Perezhr

    Perezhr Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Don’t like to see that much hail damage. Some on the ailerons is not unusual since the skin is really thin there on many aircraft, but the wing upper skin appears to have a lot of damage and pictures typically don’t look as bad as the real thing so it could be much worse.


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  3. cowman

    cowman En-Route

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    I imagine this being a composite wing complicates things.
     
  4. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    Is the wing skin being smooth aesthetic or is there some aerodynamics involved? (rhetorical question)

    As said earlier, the pictures don't tell the story. Need to see and touch that plane to determine the extent of what can only be called damage.
     
  5. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bonded, not composite. They used Elmer’s glue or something and fergot to put in the rivets.

    Anyway, the average airframe mechanic isn’t going to be able to fix this on a Friday afternoon.
     
  6. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    Make an offer that you are comfortable with, see what happens.

    They can kill ya but they can't et ya, that would be against the law.
     
  7. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    It’s cosmetic and more than likely not a structural issue. Looks bad, doesn’t affect the flying qualities. Might be a good deal. If I bought it right, I would fly it as is and not worry about it.
     
  8. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Stressed skin is slightly weakened by the thinning associated with the deformation. As you say probably not a structural problem and it has probably flown many years with the dents.
     
  9. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    For that price, with that damage, it's not even worth discussing.
     
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  10. Shopshirt

    Shopshirt Pre-takeoff checklist

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  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    The only way to repair hail damage is to replace the skin.
    To do that on a Grumman is a huge PITA, the skins aren't just riveted on, they must be rolled to fit. then all must be cleaned up and glued in placed. I don't know if the proper glue is available any more.
     
  12. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Composites are bonded.

    Assuming it is bonded aluminum honeycomb composite, if it's disbonded or if the dents are beyond manufacturers limits, it is serious. If it is not, and it's just aesthetics, sanding, aerodynamic filler and a paint job should do.
     
  13. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I'm not so sure about that, how durable is the glue holding the skins when the metal is bent where it is bonded?
     
  14. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It’s not honeycomb. It’s a simple aluminum skin. The Grumman design isn’t a composite by any stretch of the imagination.
     
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  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    On the Grumman the wing skins are not honey comb. they are simple single layer aluminum 2024-T3 over ribs.
     
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  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    The floor and belly plank that gives the aircraft its stiffness is honey comb. but being the bottom of the aircraft it would never get hit by hail.
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Here we go again, Glen wants to sand that aluminum skin.

    Where will you get approval to do that repair?
    Some Job card?
     
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  18. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So your post is pointless in this thread on hail now isn’t it.
     
  19. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Reading the ad, I see it is hangared,, too bad it wasn't once.
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I don't understand your statement, I simply made the point the only honey comb was the belly plank, and it would be next to impossible to get hit with hail

    So much worries about honey comb, well the honey comb is well protected.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  21. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Only if you put a little spin in it. ;) :p
     
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  22. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There are a few people that can do the re-skin easily, glue isn't the a problem, ain't cheap though
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You are right re-gluing isn't the problem, rolling the skins is, not many slip rollers big enough to do it.
    I know there are facilities that can and will do the re-skining, but shop labor rates pretty much make doing it impractical.
    and to add a thought, Grumman has a very good structural repair manual, that dictates how this will be done.
     
  24. 1RTK1

    1RTK1 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yep, only about 4 places I would trust
     
  25. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I understand that you can’t understand. It’s okay Tom, we all have our limitations.
     
  26. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    your limitation is speaking coherently and making sense.
     
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  27. cowman

    cowman En-Route

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  28. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Well, structural adhesive bonding information is found in the composites area of structural repair manuals of every aircraft Ive worked on.
     
  29. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That’s nice.
     
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  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Grumman Structural repair manual is on line.
    show us the info.
     
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  31. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  32. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Who said sand the aluminum? The subject aircraft is painted and if aerodynamic filler is allowed you will probably be required to scuff the surface to provide better adhesion.

    I mentioned the manufacturers manual, I like to use those unlike you.

    Stick to your required checklist. That's your job card.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  33. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Make sure you read the first two paragraphs in that manuals structural section.

    "This information should be used in conjunction with A.C. 43.13-1"

    and

    Field repairs... "normally covered with epoxy filler to maintain surface contour and smoothness"

    They obviously have no problem with the use of aerodynamic filler.

    Anything else you need me to find for you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  34. Ronnie Godfrey

    Ronnie Godfrey Pre-Flight

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    We bought our Cherokee with some hail damage. Not nearly as bad as your pic, but it’s noticable. The plane flies just fine, and I didn’t consider it damaging to the value. I think with that amount of damage I’d have to offer a low price. Any airplane is a good deal if you get it at the right price and it’s what you want.
     
  35. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    That is true. The manual Tom linked has dent limitations listed.
     
  36. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I'd be surprised if there wasn't a big insurance claim on that airplane at one time.
     
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  37. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

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    With that many dimples, it becomes a plus if you ever have to land on a golf course.
    You can get more backspin and shorten the landing.

    Seriously: I flew a friends Piper 180 for years.Then it got a lot of hail damage after being caught out on a ramp in Indiana.
    After the damage the plane was a couple of knots slower on the high end, and a couple of knots faster on the bottom end.
    We "re-calibrated" everything and put the new charts in the POH. He's still flying the plane.
    He calls his plane "Maxfli".
     
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  38. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A friend had hail damage on his Skylane. Insurance cut him a check for what they felt the damage did to the value of his aircraft. I think he eventually sold it for that much less. He said it didn't affect the aircraft's performance at all.

    Sooner or later just about all aluminum aircraft will have hail dents. Pretty unavailable if they're flown.
     
  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Yes, Grumman actually tells us to use the AC 43 for repairs.
     
  40. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    [​IMG]
     
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