Horizon Jumpseater goes crazy

This story is just so dumb and disappointing. Why on earth would you do drugs (apparently his 1st time trying mushrooms) when in the position that he is in? This has got to be the dumbest lapse in judgment in aviation history. ha
 
Somebody translate that word salad to plain talk. I’ve been looking but see no meaning in it.

"If Anglo/European-influenced American society, laws, and cultural norms have deprived you of your personal heritage of destroying your brain with psychedelic substances, and if 'The Man' has kept you financially oppressed and unable to afford good blow, we're here to help. Have a mushroom."
 
There are a lot of pilots out there flying today with undiagnosed medical and mental health issues, flying under the radar. Do you think that is better for "public safety".
It depends on where you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable medical and mental health conditions, and how they are diagnosed and reported. What's best for public safety would disqualify so many pilots that it would create chaos in the industry, which to some extent it already has.
 
I can’t imagine if this was an actual treatment program that he would be released from the treatment facility while under the influence.

Not sure how they would keep him there against his will if he wasn't there by court order. Hell, drug and alcohol treatment centers turn away those under the influence.
 
Not sure how they would keep him there against his will if he wasn't there by court order. Hell, drug and alcohol treatment centers turn away those under the influence.
I also can’t imagine there wouldn’t be legal issues with giving someone hallucigenic mushrooms and sending him out the door while under the influence of them.
 
That was a question even my wife had. He must have fumbled around to give the crew enough time to intervene. If he was not under the influence and truly motivated to activate those handles, I wouldn't think the flying crew would have had time to notice and react.
If he started something like “guys I’m not feeling so good” before he stood up for the handles, they may have looked over their shoulders and saw him reaching.
 
I also can’t imagine there wouldn’t be legal issues with giving someone hallucigenic mushrooms and sending him out the door while under the influence of them.

Could be, but I'm not aware of any authority imbued in medical personnel to hold someone against their will during voluntary treatment. I have to believe someone would have thought of a solution to such a situation beforehand. I suspect they would have to revert to an involuntary commitment, though such an action might limit participation in future studies if it became known.
 
If he started something like “guys I’m not feeling so good” before he stood up for the handles, they may have looked over their shoulders and saw him reaching.
The information from Alaska is that he pulled both handles. The crew reset them quickly enough that neither engine flamed out.
 
This is the problem with FAAs approach to drugs. Pilots are afraid to use shrooms when they can be used responsibility and have a positive experience.

I’m reading the effects only last six hrs. We’ll add two more for a safety buffer in Part 67 and call it “eight hours eat to seat.” Done.
 
This is the problem with FAAs approach to drugs. Pilots are afraid to use shrooms when they can be used responsibility and have a positive experience.

I’m reading the effects only last six hrs. We’ll add two more for a safety buffer in Part 67 and call it “eight hours eat to seat.” Done.
the other problem with the FAA approach to drugs is that they might be used to mask an underlying problem that is disqualifying.
 
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I reiterate my comments earlier in this thread. Maybe if he didn’t fear the FAA taking his livelihood away for going to therapy appointments to treat his depression, he might have not started using mushrooms. Just a thought.
I'd like to better understand this position. If this airman, who seems to have been suffering from clinical depression, hadn't feared the FAA taking his medical away, would he have been more likely to have sought treatment and likely a diagnosis? Would the FAA then ignore that diagnosis and allow a clinically depressed airline pilot to continue flying? What if the treatment included psychoactive medication, as it often does, would the FAA need to ignore that as well?

I guess what I'm really asking is, what does an FAA that's less scary when it comes to mental illness actually look like? Because when I hear that mentally ill pilots (as this one clearly was) shouldn't fear the FAA taking away their medical, what I hear is that the FAA shouldn't take away mental ill pilots' medicals.

I don't think that's what you're advocating. But if the FAA continues taking away mentally ill pilots' medicals then mentally ill pilots will continue to fear the FAA taking away their medicals....
 
How do you explain an irrational act, in a rational way?

I was trying to be optimistic. The FBI report is out and this guy is toast. He’s done. I hope he didn’t ruin jumpseating for the rest of us.
 
I'd like to better understand this position. If this airman, who seems to have been suffering from clinical depression, hadn't feared the FAA taking his medical away, would he have been more likely to have sought treatment and likely a diagnosis? Would the FAA then ignore that diagnosis and allow a clinically depressed airline pilot to continue flying? What if the treatment included psychoactive medication, as it often does, would the FAA need to ignore that as well?

I guess what I'm really asking is, what does an FAA that's less scary when it comes to mental illness actually look like? Because when I hear that mentally ill pilots (as this one clearly was) shouldn't fear the FAA taking away their medical, what I hear is that the FAA shouldn't take away mental ill pilots' medicals.

I don't think that's what you're advocating. But if the FAA continues taking away mentally ill pilots' medicals then mentally ill pilots will continue to fear the FAA taking away their medicals....
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the FAA's stance on mental health. To be fair, I think the FAA's stance is not quite as scary as a lot of people think.

The problem is what people think the FAA will do causes them to not seek help. And by not seeking help early, maybe whatever issue they're having intensifies until it does become a problem.

Therapy/counseling isn't even reportable on your MedExpress unless you get some sort of diagnosis, but I've heard numerous people tell me that they aren't seeking help because the FAA will ground them. These are people who are going through acute, traumatic life events (divorce, death of a loved one, etc.) that might benefit from talking it out with someone who has some tools that might help. Without those tools, someone make take their grief (or whatever issue they're dealing with) and try to self medicate. The guy in question used mushrooms. Some pilots might turn to booze to help them cope and that brings on a whole other set of issues. And it's a problem. Maybe if the stigma of getting help wasn't there, these pilots could have had early intervention before it became a grounding issue.

Of course, there will always be the ones who have a physical/chemical imbalance and no amount of therapy will help them. Those pilots obviously need to be weeded out of the system for everyone's safety.
 
The information from Alaska is that he pulled both handles. The crew reset them quickly enough that neither engine flamed out.

I've heard that as well. To my knowledge, the emergency shutoff handles in most aircraft are not able to be "reset". However the ERJ handles need to be rotated down out of their stowed position then pulled to activate, perhaps he only completed the rotate portion of the movement but not the pull, thus not completing the shutdown? It sound like he was a mainline Alaska pilot, so may not have been completely familiar with the ERJ, or in his state was not able to comprehend the motions needed.
 
Sometimes I wonder, are there any professional pilots that aren’t on an SI, don’t have multiple DUIs or felonies, don’t have mental health issues and aren’t lying about receiving VA disability? Unbelievable.
 
Sometimes I wonder, are there any professional pilots that aren’t on an SI, don’t have multiple DUIs or felonies, don’t have mental health issues and aren’t lying about receiving VA disability? Unbelievable.
Then why would they be pilots?

Sorry, someone had to…
 
I've heard that as well. To my knowledge, the emergency shutoff handles in most aircraft are not able to be "reset". However the ERJ handles need to be rotated down out of their stowed position then pulled to activate, perhaps he only completed the rotate portion of the movement but not the pull, thus not completing the shutdown? It sound like he was a mainline Alaska pilot, so may not have been completely familiar with the ERJ, or in his state was not able to comprehend the motions needed.
As stated, there are two stages. Pulling the handle down cuts off the fuel, hydraulics, and bleed air (and the crossbleed) to the engine. Then turning it left or right causes the extinguisher on the left or right side to discharge to that engine (you get two extinguisher shots total but they can be used on either engine). While the extinguisher discharge is obviously irreversible, I'm not sure you can't reset the handle. The things that the handle uses for shutoff are just valves that are selectable elsewhere.
 
Maybe this will be just the thing we need to force the change to autonomous airliners which also solves the pilot shortage problem and will free up all those fleet GA trainers driving piston single prices to the floor.

Rainbow stew.
 
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As stated, there are two stages. Pulling the handle down cuts off the fuel, hydraulics, and bleed air (and the crossbleed) to the engine. Then turning it left or right causes the extinguisher on the left or right side to discharge to that engine (you get two extinguisher shots total but they can be used on either engine). While the extinguisher discharge is obviously irreversible, I'm not sure you can't reset the handle. The things that the handle uses for shutoff are just valves that are selectable elsewhere.
At least in my limited experience, the valves that close when the shutoff is activated are spring loaded and can only be manually reset. But I'm sure that is aircraft specific and can't speak to the ERJ.
 
At least in my limited experience, the valves that close when the shutoff is activated are spring loaded and can only be manually reset. But I'm sure that is aircraft specific and can't speak to the ERJ.

On which plane are you referring to? I've worked or flown on many different planes and haven't come across any that can't be reset in flight. There may be some, so if you know of one please let us know.
 
On which plane are you referring to? I've worked or flown on many different planes and haven't come across any that can't be reset in flight. There may be some, so if you know of one please let us know.

The one I'm thinking of, and I only know it from ARFF training, is the CRJ which is a push button on the glareshield. Perhaps our ARFF training was incorrect.
 
At least in my limited experience, the valves that close when the shutoff is activated are spring loaded and can only be manually reset. But I'm sure that is aircraft specific and can't speak to the ERJ.
As far as I can remember, the fire handles were fully resetable on all of the airplane's that I've flown. The only thing I remember that wasn't resetable was the generator (CSD) disconnect function.
 
I think my “meanies” statement was closer…
Could be. But life is more complicated than people being mean and their statement seems to be bending over backward to acknowledge that, arguably at the expense of clarity.
 
Could be. But life is more complicated than people being mean and their statement seems to be bending over backward to acknowledge that, arguably at the expense of clarity.
No, they’re bending over backwards to say that society is mean for stereotypical reasons…and it’s all about blaming others.
 
Pulling the handle down shuts down the engine. Then you have to twist the handle to fire the bottles. If he had pulled the handles down, there would likely been at least 83 casualties since you cannot restart the engines once they have been shut down that way.
This is interesting. Do valves and stuff have to be manually reset on the ground?
 
This is interesting. Do valves and stuff have to be manually reset on the ground?
In all of the airliners that I have flown, you can reset the handle and restart the engine.

Unless the E175 is significantly different, I think people are confusing this with the generator (CSD) disconnect switches which, once activated, can not be reset in flight.
 
H
In all of the airliners that I have flown, you can reset the handle and restart the engine.

Unless the E175 is significantly different, I think people are confusing this with the generator (CSD) disconnect switches which, once activated, can not be reset in flight.
How long would that take? One engine, what if both went. How would that affect the restart with both having been shut down?
 
The E175 has T handles in the overhead for each engine. Pulling the handle down cuts off fuel, hydraulics, and bleed air, effectively killing the engine. You can then rotate the handle left or right to discharge either of the two firebottles into the engine.
So if he shut them down. What’s the time grime to restart. How much altitude they losing while restart? If the firebottles deployed no restart possibility correct?

Wondering what crew could if he partly succeeded?
 
This is interesting. Do valves and stuff have to be manually reset on the ground?
According to a E175 Pilot I heard discussing this on the "Taking Off" YouTube, they have to be reset on the ground. I have no personal knowledge how they work. The YouTube link I posted in #52 has disappeared so maybe the Pilot was confused about the operation and didn't want to get "retrained".
 
No, they’re bending over backwards to say that society is mean for stereotypical reasons…and it’s all about blaming others.
I mean, sort of?

They are acknowledging that the world exists and not everyone is good. If that's what you mean, then, yeah. If you mean that the world should be every man for himself and that external factors are irrelevant, then no.
 
H

How long would that take? One engine, what if both went. How would that affect the restart with both having been shut down?
Not very long. The engines are still turning so you just need to reintroduce the fuel and turn on the igniters. There is a loss of all engines checklist that covers it.

If the firebottles deployed no restart possibility correct?
Why would that have any effect? The fire agent isn't sprayed into the core of the engine, it is sprayed inside the nacelle, around the engine. Fire inside the engine is good. It is the fire outside of the engine that we want to put out.
 
In one of the stories on this, it said that if the guy had successfully shut both engines down, there would have been no electric and no hydraulics. Would this have meant no control until restart?
 
In one of the stories on this, it said that if the guy had successfully shut both engines down, there would have been no electric and no hydraulics. Would this have meant no control until restart?
The airplane has a RAT.
 
Pretty good article by WSJ. (Link -- I think this is not paywalled)

An interesting data point to several folks discussions is:

"A study published last year in the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine found that about 56% of 3,765 pilots surveyed reported behaviors such as avoiding seeking medical care, going outside formal channels, or not disclosing health information due to the perceived risk of losing their flying status."

I personally know a lot of people who avoid doctors to not get diagnosed with a problem. Hadn't seen a specific number in a respected peer reviewed journal. 56% seems significant.
 
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