Horizon Jumpseater goes crazy

TCABM said:
So a drug use issue, not a mental health issue. Wonder if there’s toxicology evidence to support that. There’s an SI for that.
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Dude said that “approximately six months ago he became depressed.”

But sure, it’s not a mental health issue.
 
Vincent Becker said:
View attachment 121788

I reiterate my comments earlier in this thread. Maybe if he didn’t fear the FAA taking his livelihood away for going to therapy appointments to treat his depression, he might have not started using mushrooms. Just a thought.
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The issue with being a pilot is first off we all have times or period of time that frankly we don’t want to fly, and really if you are working full time what are your options? To lose your job? Can you just take 6 months off because you need a break? Just thinking out loud.
 
Edit: Whoops! Didn't realize people had already posted the mushroom stuff lol.
Good God...
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mandm said:
The issue with being a pilot is first off we all have times or period of time that frankly we don’t want to fly, and really if you are working full time what are your options? To lose your job? Can you just take 6 months off because you need a break? Just thinking out loud.
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Not that I’m an expert, but maybe a quicker mechanism to clear airmen to return to service than years and thousands of dollars in medical appointments to learn some coping mechanisms for depression instead of waiting six months and then taking mushrooms for the first time.
 
Vincent Becker said:
I reiterate my comments earlier in this thread. Maybe if he didn’t fear the FAA taking his livelihood away for going to therapy appointments to treat his depression, he might have not started using mushrooms. Just a thought.
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Maybe he thought he was treating his depression, since the rocket surgeons in Oregon have legalized psychedelic mushrooms to treat nearly everything, including depression.
https://covidblog.oregon.gov/psilocybin-101-what-to-know-about-oregons-psilocybin-services/
 
Vincent Becker said:
Not that I’m an expert, but maybe a quicker mechanism to clear airmen to return to service than years and thousands of dollars in medical appointments to learn some coping mechanisms for depression instead of waiting six months and then taking mushrooms for the first time.
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Either way it involves a period of grounding, and based on the preponderance of discussion that involves hiding medical issues that could be resolved with only a temporary grounding, I still don’t see it making a difference.
 
GaryM said:
Maybe he thought he was treating his depression, since the rocket surgeons in Oregon have legalized psychedelic mushrooms to treat nearly everything, including depression.
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Sorry if I'm reading your comment harshly, but since it sounded like you were insulting the docs and implying that they were wrong. There is increasing evidence that mushrooms are indeed a viable treatment path.

jamanetwork.com

Single-Dose Psilocybin Treatment for Major Depressive Disorder

This randomized clinical trial examines the timing of onset of action, durability of benefit, and safety profile of single-dose psilocybin in patients with major depressive disorder compared with placebo.
jamanetwork.com jamanetwork.com
 
F him, ban him from flying, at least commercially for life. He was depressed, doesn't seek help and still flies passengers, let's call that strike one. Decides to take mushrooms while travelling to or from his job, which is flying the public.... strike two. Has a bad trip so he tries to kill all aboard? Strike three, done.

Mental illness has a lot of stigmas around it. Many are just not true. One of the stigmas is that mentally ill people are dangerous and hurt people. That's just not true for the majority of people with the illness. Most have a conscience and wouldn't hurt any one. Then you have guys like this guy. He knows the ramifications of what he was trying to do, sick or not.
 
mandm said:
The issue with being a pilot is first off we all have times or period of time that frankly we don’t want to fly, and really if you are working full time what are your options? To lose your job? Can you just take 6 months off because you need a break? Just thinking out loud.
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Yep there’s times when I don’t feel like going into work either and I’d like to take six months off as a “mental health break “. But instead I get up at 4 AM and go to work every day. Don’t take pills, don’t take mushrooms, Don’t need to go to a therapist to find coping mechanisms.
I submit that if you suffer from even intermittent clinical depression, you shouldn’t be flying commercially.
Find something else to do.
 
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^^^^^^^^^^^this as well ^^^^^^^^^^^^
people need to stop making excuses for people making bad decisions. Regardless of what you believe the FAA stance is - we all have to make decisions. If you dont have the ability to ground yourself - you should be banned. Dont care about the mental health issue whatsoever. This could have ended tragically - and regardless of the psychedilic mushrooms being the catalyst or his depression - the fact of the matter is that people who have depression are and can be dangerous. You can argue all you want about the FAA should or could or whatever - the reality is that most people would prefer that people who are depressed or subject to depression not be in the cockpit. Sorry for the unpopular opinion - but this **** is what happens with depression. And stop blaming the FAA saying intervention could help - it may or may not since we dont know what is inside someones head.
 
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Even a softer, kinder FAA, that had a pathway to keep pilots with mental illness in the cockpit would not work…most would never report it and the flying public would revolt when they found out after that first major accident…just my take. Imagine the insurance and liability issues alone…
 
A zero tolerance policy for any kind of mental health issues would be counter productive. If pilots will lose their entire livelihood at the first sign of any problem? How many of them would voluntarily disclose or seek any help at all? Then it remains untreated and could get worse, with a small number hitting a dangerous threshold. A policy of "ground yourself forever" is not something that will work en masse.
 
Anthem said:
people need to stop making excuses for people making bad decisions. Regardless of what you believe the FAA stance is - we all have to make decisions. If you dont have the ability to ground yourself - you should be banned. Dont care about the mental health issue whatsoever. This could have ended tragically - and regardless of the psychedilic mushrooms being the catalyst or his depression - the fact of the matter is that people who have depression are and can be dangerous. You can argue all you want about the FAA should or could or whatever - the reality is that most people would prefer that people who are depressed or subject to depression not be in the cockpit. Sorry for the unpopular opinion - but this **** is what happens with depression. And stop blaming the FAA saying intervention could help - it may or may not since we dont know what is inside someones head.
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What happens to this guy or who's fault it is isn't really what's important for us as a community of pilots. The point is what will prevent or at least reduce the likelihood of another similar incident?

The question a lot of us have been asking is whether the current FAA medical rules make it better or worse. Honestly I don't think there's a lot of good data either way. We know pilots avoid therapy for fear of getting the "wrong" diagnosis- it gets talked about all the time. The question is if we changed the rules in a way that made that a non-issue would that lead to more or less accidents?

My expectation it would probably be a wash or close to it but we should do it anyway for the personal benefit to people who fly.
 
As a side note the fire handles on the 175 take a pretty good pull to activate. They come out of the lock pretty easy and swing but once you get to the detent it takes an intentional push to activate the handle.

I figure the dude pulled them but did not get then fully into the cutoff.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
As a side note the fire handles on the 175 take a pretty good pull to activate. They come out of the lock pretty easy and swing but once you get to the detent it takes an intentional push to activate the handle.

I figure the dude pulled them but did not get then fully into the cutoff.
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Or that gave the pilots enough time to intervene.
 
Baked Potato said:
A zero tolerance policy for any kind of mental health issues would be counter productive. If pilots will lose their entire livelihood at the first sign of any problem? How many of them would voluntarily disclose or seek any help at all? Then it remains untreated and could get worse, with a small number hitting a dangerous threshold. A policy of "ground yourself forever" is not something that will work en masse.
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That’s more or less how most pilots view the current system, whether its correct or not.
 
Baked Potato said:
A zero tolerance policy for any kind of mental health issues would be counter productive. If pilots will lose their entire livelihood at the first sign of any problem? How many of them would voluntarily disclose or seek any help at all? Then it remains untreated and could get worse, with a small number hitting a dangerous threshold. A policy of "ground yourself forever" is not something that will work en masse.
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Why would it be counter productive? there will always be the "hammer possibility" or death sentence. You cant remove that possibility in the interests of safety. And as long as that is present - guess what - people arent going to self report. Its not a popular opinion - but I think more stringent protocols need to be in place. As in pull from the group without known issues. Regardless of the fact that there are possibilities that are unknown - its just an overall safer situation to be in. Its unfortunate, its not popular, but thats what these are - just opinions.
 
cowman said:
Or that gave the pilots enough time to intervene.
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That was a question even my wife had. He must have fumbled around to give the crew enough time to intervene. If he was not under the influence and truly motivated to activate those handles, I wouldn't think the flying crew would have had time to notice and react.
 
172andyou said:
Sorry if I'm reading your comment harshly, but since it sounded like you were insulting the docs and implying that they were wrong. There is increasing evidence that mushrooms are indeed a viable treatment path.

jamanetwork.com

Single-Dose Psilocybin Treatment for Major Depressive Disorder

This randomized clinical trial examines the timing of onset of action, durability of benefit, and safety profile of single-dose psilocybin in patients with major depressive disorder compared with placebo.
jamanetwork.com jamanetwork.com
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Not insulting doctors, just noting they had little to do with this. Oregon's Measure 109 was approved by the voters, not by a consensus of the medical community.

The article I linked quotes the manager of the Oregon Psilocybin Services Program:

“We are applying a trauma-informed and equity-centered lens as we administer this work and are working to emphasize client safety and access. Culturally responsive and equity centered services may reduce harm to clients that have experienced trauma from societal structures that have exhibited control through power and privilege, implicit bias, and institutional racism."
 
GaryM said:
Culturally responsive and equity centered services may reduce harm to clients that have experienced trauma from societal structures that have exhibited control through power and privilege, implicit bias, and institutional racism.
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My, that certainly seems like sound medical reasoning. :rolleyes:
 
172andyou said:
Sorry if I'm reading your comment harshly, but since it sounded like you were insulting the docs and implying that they were wrong. There is increasing evidence that mushrooms are indeed a viable treatment path.

jamanetwork.com

Single-Dose Psilocybin Treatment for Major Depressive Disorder

This randomized clinical trial examines the timing of onset of action, durability of benefit, and safety profile of single-dose psilocybin in patients with major depressive disorder compared with placebo.
jamanetwork.com jamanetwork.com
Click to expand...

Doesn't seem to have produced stellar results in this instance.
 
GaryM said:
“We are applying a trauma-informed and equity-centered lens as we administer this work and are working to emphasize client safety and access. Culturally responsive and equity centered services may reduce harm to clients that have experienced trauma from societal structures that have exhibited control through power and privilege, implicit bias, and institutional racism."
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Somebody translate that word salad to plain talk. I’ve been looking but see no meaning in it.
 
cowman said:
Or that gave the pilots enough time to intervene.
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I doubt it. My swag is he thought he activated the handles. Especially if he was high. If he had fully swung the handle the engine would have instantly quit. The shroom muncher was much closer to the handles and at a physical advantage to both pilots in the seats. My guess is he partially pulled the handles and then the pilots removed him.
 
Piperonca said:
Somebody translate that word salad to plain talk. I’ve been looking but see no meaning in it.
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Life can be unfair and difficult. There are mental health consequences to those facts. They try to help people.
 
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