Hold in lieu of procedure turn

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by steviedeviant, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. steviedeviant

    steviedeviant Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    StevieD
    POA,

    I know this question has come up before and I am looking for direction to reference AIM or FAR.

    I seem to get mixed answers to the questions "if a hold is on the approach plate, do I have to fly the complete circuit once or can I just do and entry and then get lined up?".

    You all know the circumstances...let's say I am needing to turn and I use the tear drop entry to the hold in lieu of procedure turn, once I am lined back up, do I have to actually fly one lap around or can I then come straight in?

    Some are telling me don't fly the circuit an others say do one lap. Can someone point me to the official answer and explain of I the only one confused or why this just such a confusing topic.

    Thanks
    SD
     
  2. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,864
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    From the Instrument Procedures Handbook...”The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry.”

    Cross the fix twice, not three times.
     
    benyflyguy, Tantalum and dmspilot like this.
  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    10,054
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Of course. Same language in the AIM with the same result.

    @steviedeviant, the confusion is mostly because folks try to parse language instead of taking a step back a moment and thinking about a procedure. It is a "hold in lieu of a procedure turn." A racetrack pattern instead of a barbed PT. The purpose is the same - a course reversal. Once you accomplish the course reversal, you are done.
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    6,836
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    @steviedeviant , this is also in AIM 5-4-9 a. 5. The quote, not the cross fix twice thing, which is a good description of it
     
  5. steviedeviant

    steviedeviant Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    StevieD
    Thanks for the help. So, basically, if you are coming from the opposite direction and use a tear drop, or parallel approach to line up, no need to do the addition circuit. If you are coming direct, pretty good chance there is nopt anyway. So is the only time you would fly the hold is either atc asking or you need to lose altitude so you ask for one lap?
     
  6. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,945
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Gardner
    Yes. Ask permission before doing anything more than the minimum required.

    Bob Gardner
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  7. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3,569
    Location:
    Madison, OH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dtuuri
    This part of your question is probably answered by this part of Chap. 5 in the AIM:

    "For a hold-in-lieu-of-PT, the holding pattern direction must be flown as depicted and the specified leg length/timing must not be exceeded."
    In addition, a procedure turn gives the pilot plenty of time to become established on the inbound leg, meaning finding a stable wind correction angle, whereas a simple entry to a hold does not and in the case of a parallel entry not at all because you may head directly toward the fix on any random course but the one charted. Of course, a dogleg change in course at the fix sort of cancels any benefit from "becoming established". Whatever, ATC assumes you will cross the fix only twice, so whether or not that language is published anywhere is moot, tell them if you want to run the full pattern for any reason.
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  8. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    I would strongly advise perusing http://www.avclicks.com/lessons.html brought to you by @dtuuri I spent quite some time reviewing these to really understand these more in depth. They helped me understand HiLPT as well as PT in general such as those finicky VOR-A PT’s that are barbed.
     
    steviedeviant and dtuuri like this.
  9. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,246
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    Bob,

    I would reword your advice to be, if you have a question regarding the use of the HILPT, ask the controller for clarification. The rules are clear, if the HILPT is charted, it must be flown. There are 4 exception to this rule, you don't fly the hold if: 1) You are vectored to final; 2) the segment or leg specifies NoPT; 3) You are cleared "Straight In"; or 4) timed approaches from a holding fix are in use. If one of the exceptions apply or you wish to remain in holding beyond a single entry and inbound, permission from ATC is required.
     
  10. steviedeviant

    steviedeviant Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    StevieD

    So based on real world GA flying, I would think the feedback from most is that nearly every time you would have one of the four happen. This may be why when I ask someone about this that has been flying a long time they wonder why I am even asking because they have never had to fly the entire hold. I guess flying the entire hold is the exception and just doesn’t happen that often.
     
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    10,054
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I agree with Bob. Inform ATC you want/need the extra turn around the holding pattern.
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    10,054
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    But it does happen.

    I was doing the IFR cross country with a student. We were coming to our first airport and ATC cleared him to an IAF for the Approach. The controller laughed, "sorry, you are below radar identification."

    Less and less with RNAV where they can just give you a fix at the end of the common T configuration, but it can still happen.
     
  13. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,246
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    If you fly to the major radar locations where ILS is the norm, holds will be extremely rare. But if you fly to the airports with RNAV approaches as the norm, holds for a course reversal are encountered more often.
     
    steviedeviant likes this.
  14. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,246
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    I agree with Bob on that aspect. What I did not think was complete was the inference that you always have to ask, rather than understand the rule.
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    10,054
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I didn't get that inference from Bob's post, but if one does, I definitely agree.
     
  16. DoubleD

    DoubleD Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    David
    Holding is part of the requirement for instrument currency. This is likely the most common reason for flying the HILPT. Almost every time I do it, I have to ask for it.
     
  17. Chip Sylverne

    Chip Sylverne En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,677
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fear is the poison of our lives.
    Based on my real world flying experience lately, if you're in radar coverage, you're getting vectors to final. You have to ask for the full approach if you want it.