High performance... whoa

[onwards]

So Sunday I went for my ground and initial flight in a 182, as part of my getting endorsed for high performance.

I figured a plane is a plane is a plane, right?

Holy mackerel is that wrong.

I just simply did not expect exactly how different it is to fly a 172 or Cherokee compared to a 182. The constant-speed prop, in and of itself, is an interesting component; takes a while to get used to, even if in the end it makes sense. I think the thing that was the strangest to get used to was the simplest maneuver - to descend, you simply point the noise down, no messing with the throttle, whereas when you climb, you have to push in two knobs instead of one.

No, what really got me was just how different everything feels. It all happens much more quickly, for one. In both airports we landed, we came in behind a slower plane and overtook them on approach. Then the sight picture is different, because the plane is bigger and you're sitting higher off the ground. But the most unexpected, for me, was how heavy the nose is and how easy it is to "drop the plane out of the sky". In a 172, it floats no matter what you do. The 182 sinks far more dramatically.

Then again, a 172 you have to constantly "play with" when going somewhere... in a 182, it truly is "set and forget". The thing is SO much more stable!

My first landing was a "teaching moment"... I flared in and pulled the throttle, expecting a somewhat harder touchdown than usual because I came in a little high and so went short. What I got instead was a THUNK as the main gears crunched onto the ground harder than I had ever felt before. It happened so fast and felt so bad I actually asked the instructor to get on the controls, I was shaking so much.

Ended up that it wasn't that bad - less than 6 G's since the ELT didn't trigger, and according to him he'd experienced much worse touchdowns before. For me, it taught me to respect the plane and just how different it is than a 172.

By the time we got back to home base my last landing was very smooth, and got a "well done" from the instructor.

Going up again today in this bird and looking forward to it!

EDIT: oh, and I officially crossed the 100-hour mark on that flight. What a journey it's already been!

 

[Morne]

Like you I was used to a 172, having done all of my training in it. Bought a 182 and yes, it is quite different. Right after my PPL checkride I got my high performance endorsement - very enlightening.

Most of my 172 time was in a STOL equipped bird, and the 182 I bought also has a STOL kit. They can both float! Hit your speeds religiously to prevent float and don't be bashful about going around.

BIG advantage to a 182 is the go around performance is LOVELY. Shove the knobs in and watch the ground go bye-bye...

 

[Geico266]

You would seriously love to fly an RV. On the ground, you would throw rocks at the 182.

 

[gprellwitz]

Yes, the 182 is a serious machine. As Morne said, don't be afraid to go around, especially if you bounce twice. Then it's a mandatory go around, because it will start to porpoise. But overall I (and many others) think it's about the best all-around certificated single engine piston out there.

 

[EppyGA]

You would seriously love to fly an RV. On the ground, you would throw rocks at the 182.

Then he'd have to learn to do overhead breaks. :wink2:

 

[onwards]

Yes, the 182 is a serious machine. As Morne said, don't be afraid to go around, especially if you bounce twice. Then it's a mandatory go around, because it will start to porpoise. But overall I (and many others) think it's about the best all-around certificated single engine piston out there.

Bounce? you sayin' I bounce, like ever? *glare*



It really is a pretty awesome machine... of course, I'm sure down the road I'll think of it as ho-hum. Those Lancair IVP's look pretty cool...

 

[Ghery]

Just point the nose down to go down? Not quite. Pull back on the throttle. 1 inch MP reduction will result in about 100 fpm down. Pull back about 5 inches and you've got a nice 500 fpm decent at the same airspeed you trimmed for.

Trim is your friend in the 182. And a little extra nose up trim really helps protect the nose gear on landing. That nose is heavy and you can bend the firewall if you're not carefull.

I love the 182 for cruising. Big, stable and comfortable. Have fun.

 

[Ted]

It really is a pretty awesome machine... of course, I'm sure down the road I'll think of it as ho-hum. Those Lancair IVP's look pretty cool...

I personally consider a 182 to be pretty ho-hum. Then again, I even consider my Aztec to be pretty ho-hum anymore - the 310 and Navajo that I fly are nicer machines. But no doubt, one's first experience with an aircraft having an extra 25-30% horsepower vs. previous is eye opening. I remember my first flight in the Dakota (235 HP vs. the 180 HP 172 I was used to). It was fun!

The Lancair IV-P is a great plane - but it's not just fast, it's unforgiving. You'll need some good training to fly one. Those who have failed to respect its unforgiving nature typically have one thing in common - they're dead.

 

[mikea]

So Sunday I went for my ground and initial flight in a 182, as part of my getting endorsed for high performance.

I figured a plane is a plane is a plane, right?

Holy mackerel is that wrong.

I just simply did not expect exactly how different it is to fly a 172 or Cherokee compared to a 182. The constant-speed prop, in and of itself, is an interesting component; takes a while to get used to, even if in the end it makes sense. I think the thing that was the strangest to get used to was the simplest maneuver - to descend, you simply point the noise down, no messing with the throttle, whereas when you climb, you have to push in two knobs instead of one.
...

Try buying a Cherokee 235 when you're almost ready to solo and still haven't gotten landings down.

"Remember what you learned about P-factor and opposite rudder? It would be good if we didn't bank into the ditch."

Ok...I...just...need...to...watch...for...nnn fee TURN! NOW OMG! Look back ...to..the..runway...TURN! NOW! NOW! NOW! TOO HIGH! PULL THE POWER!!!!! 1,2..PULL THE POWER FOR DESCENT!!!

It me took for-ev-er to solo and more, to learn how to land it. But in the end I had it down.

I went back and rented a Warrior once and I kept banging the throttle forward wondering what's wrong.

 

[denverpilot]

The point the nose down to come down is probably why you overtook the aircraft in the pattern. Were you doing about 140 knots indicated?

As someone else pointed out, you can start pulling power off early, slowly, and arrive a lot slower.

I tend to point the nose down early and get back the "free" speed back well outside the pattern and then let it bleed off before entering. If you leave the throttle all the way in, you'll take about 5-10 miles to slow back down to cruise and you're still too fast for the pattern at cruise.

By pattern entry, I try to be around 90 knots since that usually mixes in pretty well with just about anything, until you've spotted all the traffic and decided if you're faster or slower than they are.

Agreed on the bounces... If you bounce the 182 it'll try to porpoise on you. Just go around unless you're up to all the jockeying of the throttle it'll take to straighten it out. I've salvaged a few I shouldn't have. It eats a lot of runway.

Landing hard on the mains is a sign the airspeed all went away at the same time. It's a draggy beast with the nose in the air, power off.

Were you using full flaps, partial flaps, or none? It sounds like full flaps which is fine.

Just remember it'll lose airspeed quick with the nose in the air. Some time out in the practice area in slow flight and some power off stalls and you'll have a better feel for it. Try a straight ahead power off stall and try to hold altitude to get a feel for the flare. Note how quick the speed comes off and what it feels/sounds like. You'll get it.

Just don't land it on the nosewheel. That'll wrinkle the firewall and ruin your whole day.

Did you have your hands full with adding the cowl flaps to your flows? Not used to doing a cruise checklist and closing them up yet I bet.

That one gets new 182 drivers. Be kind to your cylinders. Ours runs a bit hot even with good baffling and they stay open to the top of the climb, even though I've already pulled the prop back for noise abatement -- unless I need the climb performance.

Some folks just blast away at max RPM until top of climb, too, and do both at level off if temps are reasonable. Especially in rentals.

(You'll also sooner or later do an XC and wonder why you're 5 knots slower than book speeds and then realize you never closed them.)

If you liked the performance of the normal 182, you'd love the turbo models. If you can afford the gas.

For fun, take a look at your 172 and 182 approach speeds. Note the 182 (depending on model) is usually slower on approach. Lots of people think "faster airplane, faster approach speed".

Standard approach for me: Flaps 10 abeam the intended landing point and 85 knots. Flaps 20 on the base leg slowing to 75 knots. Flaps 30/40 on final and 65 knots. Slowing to 55 crossing the fence. 85, 75, 65, 55.

If you choose no-flap or stopping a Flaps 20, keep it up at 65.

If you're flying an older 182 with an ASI in MPH: 95, 85, 75, 65.

(It's close enough. Both are rules of thumb. You can look up numbers in the PoH and fly more accurately, of course. Just sharing a mental tip that works well in the 182.)

To be honest those numbers are a little fast -- hint: look up the calibrated airspeed chart in the PoH. As the nose comes up, the difference between calibrated and indicated grows. You'll also see this during stall practice. The ASI will indicate very small numbers and you'll think, "How is this thing still flying?"

Have fun flying the mid-sized SUV of the Cessna fleet.

 

[bbchien]

This is why we have transition training. A plane is not just a plane.

....well it is if you've encountered it before.

I remember thinking I had the world by the tail when the 1,500 pound fuel load landing restriction was removed from my opspecs in training. I think they wanted to limit the size of the fire created by the young lieutenant.....

 

[gprellwitz]

Coming into Windwood last weekend (in gusty conditions, in my defense), I bounced it on the first touchdown. The second touchdown was less of a bounce, or I was going to go around. Since it wasn't porpoising, I added a skosh of power, stabilized it, and let it down fairly gently, and with plenty of runway to spare. However, I was within a half second of going around. Coming into a similar field a couple of years ago (about 3000', 40 - 50' wide, 15G 25 direct crosswind), I did go around, especially since there was another plane in position at the end of the runway. I'm still not convinced that I should have tried to save this landing, even though I was successful, and I have about 200 hours in this plane.

 

[Richard]

Just point the nose down to go down? Not quite. Pull back on the throttle. 1 inch MP reduction will result in about 100 fpm down. Pull back about 5 inches and you've got a nice 500 fpm decent at the same airspeed you trimmed for.

Trim is your friend in the 182. And a little extra nose up trim really helps protect the nose gear on landing. That nose is heavy and you can bend the firewall if you're not carefull.

I love the 182 for cruising. Big, stable and comfortable. Have fun.

Like.

The 182 is nose heavy. The sight picture (compared to a 172) will appear you are properly flared...you are not. You'll land flat. Pull that sucker into your gut, then up and some more.

Ghery has it right with respect to MP/trim/descent rate.

By your 3rd lesson in the 182 you'll get it...hopefully.

 

[sba55]

Like.

The 182 is nose heavy. The sight picture (compared to a 172) will appear you are properly flared...you are not. You'll land flat. Pull that sucker into your gut, then up and some more.

Ghery has it right with respect to MP/trim/descent rate.

By your 3rd lesson in the 182 you'll get it...hopefully.

182 = brick with wheels.

I haven't flown an airplane that has worse handling characteristics. Surprisingly bad, even for Cessna.

 

[Ghery]

(You'll also sooner or later do an XC and wonder why you're 5 knots slower than book speeds and then realize you never closed them.)

I've never done that. Nope, not ever.

And if you belive that, there's a bridge in Brooklyn we should talk about.

That's the other point. I said earlier that trim is your friend. So are checklists. Religiously used and followed. More toys in the 182 to set correctly than in the 172.

 

[Richard]

182 = brick with wheels.

I haven't flown an airplane that has worse handling characteristics. Surprisingly bad, even for Cessna.

182 (all models), 210 (at least early models), 205, 206, 207...all apply. Worst? I don't think so.

BTW: the 207 is truly a brick compared to the other 200 series Cessnas. (best glide...if it ain't under the cowling you won't make it)

 

[Jaybird180]

The 182 is nose heavy.

The 182 is reminding me to use trim in the pattern. I could get away with hand flying the 172 although trim made things much calmer. My first landing was without trimming. I didn't have a problem, but I definately needed use some mus-kuls on the pull

The sight picture (compared to a 172) will appear you are properly flared...you are not. You'll land flat. Pull that sucker into your gut, then up and some more.

I haven't found this to be true in my experience with the transition. A flare is a flare. If you were a flatlander before you'll probably continue to do so. I'll admit that my inadequate use of right rudder on flare problem is back, but I can fix that too.

 

[jsstevens]

[snip] But no doubt, one's first experience with an aircraft having an extra 25-30% horsepower vs. previous is eye opening. I remember my first flight in the Dakota (235 HP vs. the 180 HP 172 I was used to). It was fun!
[snip]

Yes! I normally fly a 145HP C-172C and I took a demo flight in a Cirrus. 310HP for the two of us and 20gallons of fuel. Holy Cow! What a rocket!

John

 

[p1l0t]

Meh. 182 has good climb performance and payload but for the gas it burns not to high of a cruise speed. 235hp for 140kts MAYBE. The M20J in our club is only 200hp and cruises at 157kts at like 75% power. Guess it depends on what you are using it for though. Mooney has plenty of leg room but no shoulder room whatsoever bcause of the sleek cabin. Payload is less too.

<---<^>--->

 

[tonycondon]

mooney is a lousy towplane though

 

[TMetzinger]

mooney is a lousy towplane though

Only because dummies have hooked the towline to the movable tail and yanked it off. The proper way to tow with a Mooney is to build a bridle on the main landing gear legs.

 

[Skylane81E]

Over taking traffic in the pattern?

You're to fast, ease up on the go-fast knob.
182 will fly just as slow as you please. Flew in formation with a guy convinced he had to drag flaps 10 to go 90kts. All the other skylane drivers just used less power.

For starters fly your 172 v speeds. You can add a knot or two when landing to make the flare easier for starters but you should realy get used to landing with the yoke in your gut. Trimming in the flare can help too but be ready to fight the heavy nose up trim on a go arround if you do. I have electric trim in mine, very nice feature to have in a skylane.

 

[mikea]

Once I could solo and did my endless pattern work I developed my own techniques.

One is to pull to 20" MP as turning crosswind at 500 feet AGL to avoid soaring through the 800 foot pattern altitude.

Another was that the power/torque behind that prop was your friend. So once on landing when I hit the nosewheel first and started riding a bucking bronco...I pushed the throttle forward, ROAR!, pitched up to the right angle, pulled the power and landed normally and nice. Like Pee Wee Herman, "Meant to do that!"

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

A bigger shock is going to be after you have been flying 200hp+, then suddenly find yourself in a lower hp airplane.

 

[jesse]

You would seriously love to fly an RV. On the ground, you would throw rocks at the 182.

I would. Let me know sometime when you're flying

I've flown a RV-4 some. It was a blast.

 

[thomascannon]

A bigger shock is going to be after you have been flying 200hp+, then suddenly find yourself in a lower hp airplane.

So true.

I know a DPE who took the controls during a checkride in a 172R (R = restricted, less HP than the 180 of the S models but looks the same) as the plane was climbing so poorly he thought something must be wrong with it for sure. He was on the verge of announcing an emergency... the poor student pilot of course sat there wondering what was wrong... with the DPE.

 

[Jaybird180]

Over taking traffic in the pattern?

You're to fast, ease up on the go-fast knob.
182 will fly just as slow as you please. Flew in formation with a guy convinced he had to drag flaps 10 to go 90kts. All the other skylane drivers just used less power.

For starters fly your 172 v speeds. You can add a knot or two when landing to make the flare easier for starters but you should realy get used to landing with the yoke in your gut. Trimming in the flare can help too but be ready to fight the heavy nose up trim on a go arround if you do. I have electric trim in mine, very nice feature to have in a skylane.

Many pilots far more experienced that I have recommended leaving some additional margin and advocated against full stall landings.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

He was on the verge of announcing an emergency.

heehee, I let a friend of mine (>15yrs ago, him 737 rated & current) take off the 150, full load, ~7400'da. He tried to rotate to ~10° nose up at the recommended speed, not much useful happened!

 

[mikea]

A bigger shock is going to be after you have been flying 200hp+, then suddenly find yourself in a lower hp airplane.

As above. Those udder planes have something wrong with the throw range of the throttle.

 

[Neal Howard]

You would seriously love to fly an RV. On the ground, you would throw rocks at the 182.

Even with less than 200hp, most RVs are really "high performance" even though they don't meet the legal definition.

My transition from 150hp Cherokee 140 to a 190hp RV-8 was an eye-opener.

Try flying a 260hp RV-10, and you can even experience an aspect of true "high performance" flying that you'll never encounter in a C182... torque roll over. Get the RV-10 into slow flight, way behind the power curve with the nose way up at a high angle of attack and then shove both the prop and throttle forward abruptly and see what happens. Definitely something to be aware of and ready for when executing a go-around in them.

 

[p1l0t]

Yeah seriously ease back on throttle once you level off in downwind. I recommend my students an 80kt pattern as rule of thumb. Why go rocketing through the pattern just to have to attempt get slowed up again? Flying at slower speed gives you more time to think, do your pre-landing checks, call the tower (or position), configure the plane.. besides at 120kts you'll likely just run up behind the next guy unless its a corporate jet or something. Its probably more familar to be firewalled but in a high-performance airplane it takes a little more discretion. Heck, the Mooney, which is 1hp under high performance actually is even harder to slow down than the 182. When your doing 200mph in an airplane with a 13:1 glide ratio you will not slowdown unless you level off to get below gear speed and then drop the gear. I've watched lots of new-to-complex or even just new to the Mooney struggle with wanting to keep the nosedown and slowing up at the same time. Its better to get your speed under sooner whenever possible. Not only does getting below the speeds you need to dirty it up increase your rate of descent (or angle) [from gear/flaps being put in] but by slowing down you buy yourself time which means you don't need as high of rate to get down in the same distance. So it pays exponentially to slow down sooner rather than waiting till your just clearing the trees to make a bunch of corrections and ruin your stablized approach.

<---<^>--->

 

[DavidWhite]

I greased my first landing in a high performance plane, but I did have the worlds greatest pilot as an instructor.

 

[denverpilot]

182 will fly just as slow as you please. Flew in formation with a guy convinced he had to drag flaps 10 to go 90kts. All the other skylane drivers just used less power.

Formation in the Skylane left me wondering what to do with the carb heat. Throttle-jockeying into and out of the MP green arc constantly.

That's probably more a sign that it was bumpy that day than anything else.

 

[denverpilot]

I greased my first landing in a high performance plane, but I did have the worlds greatest pilot as an instructor.

Suck up.

 

[onwards]

Wow, excellent posts.

Just to clarify - I'm doing the patterns just fine at recommended speeds (80-90 MPH on downwind, 70-80 MPH on base and final). I meant to say that on both occasions, we were converging on the airport with someone else coming in too in a smaller plane, both reporting in around the same time with them a mile or two ahead, and by the time we got within range of 45 to downwind, we'd be ahead of them and first in the pattern. I hope that makes more sense now.

My flight yesterday went very well; the instructor was happy with my slow flight and stalls, my steep turns were really good (I love catching the prop wash on the 182, because you can actually FEEL it, as opposed to in the 172 or Cherokee), and my landings were super, including the night one at the end (we ran late). He says we need one more flight so I can nail the engine-off landings more consistently (still getting used to how fast the nose sinks on this), and just to wrap up everything so I can be very smooth on application of the controls.

I really enjoy flying this machine... and I do wonder what it will feel like to go back to flying the 172 next time I do. I have a sense that, like someone posted, it will be quite a shock.

 

[mikea]

Yeah seriously ease back on throttle once you level off in downwind. I recommend my students an 80kt pattern as rule of thumb. Why go rocketing through the pattern just to have to attempt get slowed up again? Flying at slower speed gives you more time to think, do your pre-landing checks, call the tower (or position), configure the plane.. besides at 120kts you'll likely just run up behind the next guy unless its a corporate jet or something. Its probably more familar to be firewalled but in a high-performance airplane it takes a little more discretion...

I pull the power to about 75% - to 20" MP as I'm beginning the first turn to crosswind - where I use 16" MP for 100MPH slow flight (on approach & downwind) and pull to ~12" MP for descent to landing.

As you say, that gives you a few breaths to get oriented and glance at the runway.

I guess I could have just held the nose down and zoomed but that not how I worked it out and that's where you go too fast.

 

[sba55]

182 (all models), 210 (at least early models), 205, 206, 207...all apply. Worst? I don't think so.

BTW: the 207 is truly a brick compared to the other 200 series Cessnas. (best glide...if it ain't under the cowling you won't make it)

Oh, I don't doubt it. Luckily, I haven't had the misfortune to fly any of those

 

[Ghery]

My flight yesterday went very well; the instructor was happy with my slow flight and stalls, my steep turns were really good (I love catching the prop wash on the 182, because you can actually FEEL it, as opposed to in the 172 or Cherokee),

If you hit it in a 172 you will feel it.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Trim is definitely your friend in the 182. I liked to trim the nose up on final so I had to push the yoke down just a hair. Made the nose a lot easier to hold up in the flare, and thus a lot easier on the nose gear.
Just be aware of it in case of a go around.

 

[skidoo]

Wow, excellent posts.

Just to clarify - I'm doing the patterns just fine at recommended speeds (80-90 MPH on downwind, 70-80 MPH on base and final). I meant to say that on both occasions, we were converging on the airport with someone else coming in too in a smaller plane, both reporting in around the same time with them a mile or two ahead, and by the time we got within range of 45 to downwind, we'd be ahead of them and first in the pattern. I hope that makes more sense now.

snip...

I know what you mean. Last month, I was going to a fly-in. There was a lot of reporting on the radio and about 15 miles out, I spotted two aircraft way in front and to my right slightly. They almost looked like they were aimed for straight in's. Well, I was cruising moderately at only 55%, so I figured I would just follow them in. That way, I could easily keep them in sight. It wasn't very long before I was about to overtake the first guy in front. I didn't want to do S-turns, nor jump in front, so I turned 45 deg left and went about 5 miles out from the airport so I could turn and approach the pattern with a normal 45 deg entry. Turned out that taking that long way around put me right behind that guy upon landing...

I love the range of performance it has. I can run it slow and save fuel, or go reasonable fast if I need to get there soon. I could have just slowed down for the above situation, but I chose not too.