Here's the mission, what's the plane?

labbadabba

labbadabba

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
2,391
Location
Lawrence, KS
Display Name
labbadabba
Home Airfield
KIXD, KLWC
Mission:

Carry 4 250lb passengers and a 240lb pilot + 4 35lb golf bags (1,380lbs) for flights within 400nm or 2.5 hours range.

Hourly operating costs $200-300.

And go.
 
I'll go first: Aztec might work but geesh that's a lot of payload before fuel. ~600 lbs left for fuel before grossing at 2,000 lbs. ~30gph burn X 2.5 = 75x6= 450 lbs... 1 hour reserve 30x6= 180.

1380+450+180= 2,010.

I don't know the hourly cost on an Aztec but I would think it would be the most economical that would get you the payload you needed.

****Edit - I took too long to submit. I only thought I was first.
 
Sounds like twin territory, like Beechcraft Baron. You might be able to do it in a PA32/C210, but man it'd be a load for an SE bird.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Sounds like twin territory, like Beechcraft Baron. You might be able to do it in a PA32/C210, but man it'd be a load for an SE bird.
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Yep, most 6-seat piston twins have a useful load of 1,500-1,600 lbs on the high end. The other option is going with something like a Caravan or Meridian but operating costs skyrocket with a turbine. At least that's my understanding. You go from $300 an hour with a big piston twin to $600 an hour with a PT6 blowing gas.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Sounds like twin territory, like Beechcraft Baron. You might be able to do it in a PA32/C210, but man it'd be a load for an SE bird.
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My first thought was an older Six / Lance which is often ~1600 useful. Then I looked at the math again and realized the 1,380 was before fuel. I think the only single that would safely be up for this task would be a Caravan.
 
kkoran said:
Can't be that rich if they can only afford $200 - $300 per hour operating costs.
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Oh, I'm not saying that's how much it'll cost them... The plane for the mission as I described is probably a unicorn. The DA62 would fit the bill but acquisition costs are rather high...but not that much higher than a used TBM...
 
labbadabba said:
Yep, most 6-seat piston twins have a useful load of 1,500-1,600 lbs on the high end. The other option is going with something like a Caravan or Meridian but operating costs skyrocket with a turbine. At least that's my understanding. You go from $300 an hour with a big piston twin to $600 an hour with a PT6 blowing gas.
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My 310 has a nearly 2000# useful. Put 1400 in the cabin and you have fuel to go 500 miles with reserves.
 
This idea stems from a hangar convo I had with a golf pro. Kansas City doesn't have a ton of championship caliber golf courses but there are quite a few within a 2-hour flight. That opens up Chicago and Dallas. So for a day trip a foursome could load up at 6am for a 8:30 tee-time and be home mid-afternoon. Figure a package for 4 could be $2,000 including the flight, a round of golf and transport to and from the course.

Just spitballing but it got me thinking about what plane would not only be capable but economical enough where there's sufficient margin to make it worth-while.
 
A top golf pro, or just a golf pro? A top guy can probably buy a jet and all the people needed to run it.
 
Bill Jennings said:
A top golf pro, or just a golf pro? A top guy can probably buy a jet and all the people needed to run it.
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Club pro. He was pitching the idea of working with other clubs in the region to have a member share price where they pay reduced greens fees at these other courses if they're members at his. He says it would be a good perk for his members to have quick access to places like Dakota Dunes in SD or Prairie Dunes in Hutchinson, KS. Both are world-class courses in the middle of nowhere.

He was asking if a small plane could do something like that. (e.g., take 4 fat golfers on a day trip golf outing)
 
James_Dean said:
Cabin class and $200 - $300/hr? Why don't they just take their unicorns to the course?
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Kind of my thinking. By the book, the DA62 would be able to fly that mission but that acquisition price...

According to what I've read, a TBM will run about $600 per hour and would perfectly suit this mission but that also blows out the economical part of the equation. Caravans are cheaper hourly but actually cost more per mile since they cruise a good 100kts slower.
 
My personal feeling is your ask is too great for the give of what $300/hr. will give you.
 
Jeez, we used to use a 240 lb estimate for a fully equipped combat soldier. Empty the golf balls out of your pockets! :)

I agree with the 310. Probably the cheapest way to meet your payload requirement. Just took a 500 NM trip with 3 full sized adults last week in one. I remember Doc Bruce saying his Seneca II can pack a load as well. Might be an option.
 
Velocity173 said:
Jeez, we used to use a 240 lb estimate for a fully equipped combat soldier. Empty the golf balls out of your pockets! :)

I agree with the 310. Probably the cheapest way to meet your payload requirement. Just took a 500 NM trip with 3 full sized adults last week in one. I remember Doc Bruce saying his Seneca II can pack a load as well. Might be an option.
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Lot of BBQ and fried chicken in KC... I looked at Senecas and book useful load is around 1,400lbs, at least for the V. The older ones I'm sure are quite a bit lighter.
 
labbadabba said:
Yep, most 6-seat piston twins have a useful load of 1,500-1,600 lbs on the high end. The other option is going with something like a Caravan or Meridian but operating costs skyrocket with a turbine. At least that's my understanding. You go from $300 an hour with a big piston twin to $600 an hour with a PT6 blowing gas.
Click to expand...

Yeah, which leaves ~200lbs for fuel (assuming there's no W&B issues with 5-fatties) which is only going to get you 1.5-2hrs away with no reserves and it would likely be a bear to fly anyway. He'd need to step up to a larger twin like JamesDean mentioned, like the Cessna 3/4-series/Piper Navajo to get enough useful load for fuel to go anywhere with reserves. I'd think the golf club owner/insurance company would have plenty to say about the liability of such an arrangement, as well as the FAA in terms of charter service ops.
 
Can you fit 4 passengers and 4 sets of clubs in a Cherokee 6?

I like the idea, not sure if it's economically viable.
 
scorpio said:
Can you fit 4 passengers and 4 sets of clubs in a Cherokee 6?

I like the idea, not sure if it's economically viable.
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Yes you can but with any fuel and the pax weights he's mentioning it will be an NTSB report rather quickly.
 
A Baron isn't going to cut it. The only entry level twin that I believe would for sure do it would be the Aztec, and maybe the 310.

I'd put operating costs on a part 91 Aztec in the neighborhood of $250-275/hour. What you're talking about doing sounds like it is heading into 135 territory though, which might push the operating costs up a bit with the extra maintenance and insurance needed. If that is truly the goal, I'd say you're looking at a Navajo or 402 at a minimum, if you want non-aviation people to ride on it.
 
That load is just too big for anything short of the bigger piston twins. I think you're looking at the two airplanes mondster identified. The first thing I thought of was the Aztec, although you're going to be going with partial fuel. A Navajo or 402 would be a lot better.
 
labbadabba said:
Mission:

Carry 4 250lb passengers and a 240lb pilot + 4 35lb golf bags (1,380lbs) for flights within 400nm or 2.5 hours range.

Hourly operating costs $200-300.

And go.
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A Suburban will do it easily, an Expedition / Navigator may need a gas stop. Or lose 50-70 lbs each, then yiur options include speedy things with wings.
 
A King Air. Fulfills all your requirements. Well, almost all of them.
 
Delta Air Lines.

If you increase your hourly budget, a Navajo would do very nicely.
 
labbadabba said:
Mission:

Carry 4 250lb passengers and a 240lb pilot + 4 35lb golf bags (1,380lbs) for flights within 400nm or 2.5 hours range.

Hourly operating costs $200-300.

And go.
Click to expand...
buy the Beaver or stay home. :) :) :)
 
$200-300 an hour buys practically nothing if you are talking all-in costs. What's the acquisition budget, and how many trips'yr do you anticipate?
 
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