Help---unable to get ADS-B rebate due to error Garmin says in no big deal

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Walboy, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    I have a friend who recently installed a GTX345 for his ADS-B in/out solution. As is required, a test has to be submitted to qualify for the FAA rebate. The only thing that fails is the (Air on Ground) parameter below during an airborne test. This failure stands between my friend and his rebate. The avionics shop says Garmin says it's no big deal.

    Any ideas on what could cause this? I have seen the report and everything else passes. The test result is from the Airbone 1090 analysis.

    IMG_3427.PNG
     
  2. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Reeks of being misconfigured how it determines air/ground mode switching or improper software versions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  3. Unit74

    Unit74 En-Route

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    Well, if the FAA rejects the installation, make your shop repair, reconfigure or replace. If they don't, contact your local AG and ask for help. You are dealing with a government run program. You have rights.
     
  4. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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    That, or perhaps the transponder was put into ALT mode on the ground, rather than letting it switch from ground to air on its own.
     
  5. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Is this speculation or something you know causes this failure? With FAA's guidance that transponder should be set to ALT even when on the ground and Garmin's automatic mode switching based on ground speed, maybe this is something to look into.

    Unit 74: The avionics shop isn't blowing this off.

    AOPA did put out recent guidance that where and how you fly your airplane for the flight test could affect the outcome. From AOPA,

    Pilots’ unfamiliarity with details of the flight test requirements—including location, what maneuvers to conduct, and the flight test’s length—also resulted in some PAPR and GAIRS reports coming back with elements marked in red, indicating failure to meet the requirements of at least one of those testing parameters. For an ADS-B validation flight to meet the FAA rebate requirements, it must be made in airspace where ADS-B Out will be required—rule airspace—and not simply in airspace with ADS-B ground station coverage.

    To further clarify testing requirements, the FAA notes that flying and maneuvering for 30 minutes within ADS-B ground station coverage alone does not meet the intent of the recommended maneuvering. The intent of performing various maneuvers for the full 30 minutes within specified rule airspace is to evaluate the overall system performance after installation. The performance parameters identified in the 2020 ADS-B rule are defined to ensure that an aircraft meets all performance requirements in various phases of flight, not just level flight within ADS-B coverage. The additional maneuvering requirements are needed to ensure that the aircraft is providing the correct indications to the ground infrastructure during all applicable phases of flight, and if within ADS-B coverage during surface operations.
     
  6. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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    It was based on my experience.
     
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  7. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks!!! This is just the sort of thing I'm looking for. I hope this is it.
     
  8. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    It's Garmin that is giving your friend grief?

    Well, what I take from this is that maybe the GTX345 cannot meet the FAA standard for ADSB and I should not buy one. Furthermore, Garmin isn't standing behind their product or supporting their customer well.

    Or, can you do the test in another location?
     
  9. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You pay for the install and equipment, which you are told qualifies you for the rebate, this is between the avionics shop (who you bought the box from and installed it) and the Feds, one way or another I would not be paying another dime, in fact I'd likley try to withhold payment until the unit was installed to spec and my rebate was approved.

    Your money was to spec, their work wasn't, not your problem.

    Make it right, or put the plane back to the way it was before and give me all my money back.
     
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  10. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Everyone is cooperating trying to solve a problem that has everyone stumped. There's no need for confrontational posturing. I just thought that maybe someone had seen this issue before like GeorgeC has. Comments about contacting the attorney general or withholding payment aren't helpful or what I'm looking for. But thanks anyway.

    It's not my transponder either. I have a GTX327 and a GDL88.
     
  11. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I have no idea what that failure mode is....but it sounds like either a squat switch or an airspeed switch isn't set properly to indicate airborne or flight phase.

    Are you able to get any feed back from another ADS-B "in" unit?....and see your target and it's status?
     
  12. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    I can't answer that question for sure. I can say that the GTX345 passed all the other tests in the FAA's Airborne 1090 analysis.

    Given that everything seems to be working fine, let's say the answer to your question is no. What would that mean?
     
  13. Unit74

    Unit74 En-Route

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    My 345/210 install gave my shop fits. After the third attempt, it's working just peachy.
     
  14. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I'd check to make sure it's sensing the phase of flight (taxi vs. flight) correctly. It either has to use a GPS speed signal or a switch of some kind (squat or airspeed). That data feed isn't happening IMHO.
     
  15. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    That seems to be the consensus. I can't imagine that the avionics shop in consultation with Garmin while troubleshooting has overlooked this possibility, but you never know. When I get more details, I will post.

    It does seem as if there is a configuration setting that is tripping a flag with the FAA.
     
  16. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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    In my case, it would have sensed the phase of flight just fine, had I allowed it to (my first clue was an "are you sure?" prompt when I switched to ALT); I'd eliminate pilot error before roping the avionics shop in.
     
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  17. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    This is an indication that the transponder is reporting in the air when in fact it is on the ground. Since different ADS- B data is broadcast when on the ground than when airborne, this is important, particularly at major airports which use surface ADS-B.
     
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  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I gotcha, my only though is if a customer using/paying a avionics shop is having to ask questions on how to fix his new avionics on a forum, might be time to shop a different shop.
     
  19. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    True. But this could be a case of fixing something that's not broken. Someone else here has already shown this to be the case. It could be purely procedural or not flying in the correct airspace.

    The avionics shop is also several states away. My friend opted to leave before he had a satisfactory test result. I'm simply asking if anyone else has run into this. I know at the AOPA Prescott Fly-In, there were numerous folks stymied by the FAA's report trying to collect the $500 rebate.
     
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  20. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So hes already accepted delivery, ahh, well disregard what I said.
     
  21. Single Engine Land

    Single Engine Land Filing Flight Plan

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    Try taxing less than 15kt. I was told to do that to pass with a Stratus ESG. There is a problem with identifying if you are on the ground or in the air if you don't have a squat switch interfaced with the transponder. Fixed gear won't have that so for now try a slow taxi after your next performance monitor flight
     
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  22. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

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  23. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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  24. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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  25. Single Engine Land

    Single Engine Land Filing Flight Plan

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    The 15kt rule seems to be moving from myth to reality. Flying above or outside the required airspace is not looking like an option either. What we really need from the FAA is for them to publish the specifications given to the programmer who wrote the algorithm that issues these PASS / FAIL notices. Given I got my results in 15 minuses on a Saturday afternoon there is no way they are being issued by a carbon based life form. I am going to bet the specs don't follow the rules, or the program doesn't follow the specs.
     
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  26. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Saves them money if they screw it up. Unintended consequences.
     
  27. Walboy

    Walboy Line Up and Wait

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    Latest update in this saga is that Garmin said the installation was done correctly and that the FAA is at fault. It might be cost effective for Garmin to lend the FAA one of it's programmers to straighten this mess out. Sounds like my buddy's problem is pretty common.

    Kind of makes you wonder how accurate ADS-B information really is. :(
     
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  28. Single Engine Land

    Single Engine Land Filing Flight Plan

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    Just got a friendly email from the FAA confirming the $500 rebate was approved and the check is in the mail (4-6 week delivery).
     
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  29. Indiana_Pilot

    Indiana_Pilot Line Up and Wait

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    I am guessing it sees him on the ground at faster speeds.. mine doesn't show me on the ground unless I am under 30kts.. It's easily configured.
     
  30. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    From the 345 manual:

    The transponder system no longer supports a pilot selectable GND mode. The transponder should always be in ALT mode prior to moving on the airport surface. It must be in ALT mode when operating in certain controlled airspace, in accordance with 14 CFR 91.215. For guidance on transponder operation, refer to the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), 4-1-20(a)(3). When on the ground or in the air always operate the transponder in ALT mode, unless otherwise requested by ATC. It is acceptable to go directly from OFF to ALT mode. It is not necessary to place in SBY mode for a “warm up” period. The transponder automatically determines whether the aircraft is in the air or on the ground
     
  31. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    BTW, the total cost to install the 345 and hook it up to our Warrior's GTN 650 was $5,785.45. If only we could pass the test for the rebate. :(

    Upside: The 650/345 combination is awesome!
     
  32. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    I have a 530w/330ES combo now and cannot get a GAIRS report - I get the PAPR report - and it has no errors in red- so I'm good - the interesting thing here is it shows the flight - the flight was in various airspaces - and near and above and below airspaces -

    If I was not detected in the requisite airspace for the required time - I should have received a FAIL GAIRS if nothing else - instead I got nothing - thats not right either
     
  33. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    Ours passed when we kept the 345 in standby until takeoff.
     
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  34. Don Siegel

    Don Siegel Filing Flight Plan

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    Jim,
    Can you be a bit more specific on when you went from standby to alt both on takeoff and landing?
    Thanks
    Don
     
  35. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    LOL. Bad software coders, no Donut. FAA didn't read the AIM before they coded the stupid test tool, apparently.
     
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  36. JimNtexas

    JimNtexas Pattern Altitude

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    I didn't fly the test flight,a friend did. He told me he turned the 345 on at the start of the takeoff roll. I don't know if he turned it off after landing.

    At Bergstrom we have very long taxi runs, up to almost 10,000 feet if the wind is from the south, as it usually is.
     
  37. Don Siegel

    Don Siegel Filing Flight Plan

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  38. Don Siegel

    Don Siegel Filing Flight Plan

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    Putting the GTX 345 in standby on startup, and then altitude after liftoff, then standby prior to landing and taxiing worked to pass the test required for the rebate.
     
  39. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    How fast are you normally taxiing? Wondering if it going in/out of air mode from fast taxi while "on" not in "standby", causing to fail the test flight.

    Seems to me that was mentioned before in a different thread.

    (assuming a fixed gear airplane where software is determining air/ground and not a switch)
     
  40. Don Siegel

    Don Siegel Filing Flight Plan

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    I tried following the protocol suggested by Garmin which states taxiing at no faster than a brisk walk. This did not work for me on multiple tests. Garmin told me that there would be a fix for this problem in a subsequent update.