Help me blow 5 more grand on aviation

schmookeeg

schmookeeg

En-Route
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
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Location
Alameda, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Mike Brannigan
Hello,

I have been financing a spite project called rampfee.me to combat sneaky FBOs and their nonsense fees. This post is not to astroturf the site (promise) :)

We are finishing our first pass through the 8 aircraft categories we set up. For the last 4 months, I've been paying minions to call each and every one of these shaisters, pose as a pilot of a certain type, and extracting their fees. It's harder than you'd think -- it's like pulling teeth with some of these places.

Anyway, our first pass gives us enough "hand" to get some eyeballs on the site before we ask the FBOs to sponsor a site designed to keep them honest. :) I need to spread some ad dollars around to accelerate things. Once we complete our data collection, we will be selling data feeds to other sites and apps that do the flight planning bit better than we will. We'd like to be the 100LL.com of ramp fees I guess.

I've earmarked 5 "or so" grand to buy ad space through this year's flying season (thinking next month through November or so). I'd like to sprinkle some ad buys around, but get good bang for the buck.

The last time I had to do this (for an FBO), AirNav was the thing. This is my first consumer-facing aviation site so I'm clueless.

Ideas? :D

I can buy ads in magazines, sponsor websites, or buy Google Adwords. I can probably do all three of those. Or instead, I can likely buy one or two ads in the big flying mags.

I appreciate any wisdom you'd like to impart.

Blue Skies,

- Mike
 
One item of use to me would be if the FBO offers any “perks” for charity flights such as PnP and Angel Flight.
 
Well, I had a real good answer, but it likely crossed the POA line so I opted not to post.
 
Tell you right now, having an image of the Chicago skyline will not endear you to most of your target audience.
 
murphey said:
Tell you right now, having an image of the Chicago skyline will not endear you to most of your target audience.
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Agreed... if you are looking up a Chicago area airport, sure... but doesn’t quite work when you look up anywhere else.

And I’m still scratching my head about the business model... how will this become self sustainable or profitable?
 
It wasn't really the most accurate term in this instance, since he was upfront about his role in the site:

"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by a grassroots participant(s). It is a practice intended to give the statements or organizations credibility by withholding information about the source's financial connection."
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Same question here. Fake grass on a website. Don’t get it either. I assumed it had something to do with getting traffic data stats higher to help sell ad space but that’s just a huge WAG.
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I'm guessing it comes from a few election cycles ago. "Grassroots movement" has been around a long, long time. A few years ago, one side or the other taunted their opponents by calling the other side's movement "AstroTurf"; in other words, fake.
 
Kevin Brown said:
I'm guessing it comes from a few election cycles ago. "Grassroots movement" has been around a long, long time. A few years ago, one side or the other taunted their opponents by calling the other side's movement "AstroTurf"; in other words, fake.
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Thanks. I don’t have tv or pay attention to any of the bobble heads so I never would have figured that one out myself.
 
I like the idea of the site. But I'm not sure I can help with a business model. Are you talking 5 k every year or is that just the development costs? Some of the obvious ones -
Advertisements - this is the default way to make money, but you have to have eyeballs on the site for it to work.
User Subscription - I don't think you're there yet. Good information, but can't I pick up the phone and find out the same thing?
FBO subscription - not sure what they would be subscribing to.

Big question - what will you do if Airnav starts adding accurate ramp fees to their information?

There are some expansion ideas.
1) PIREPs for everything.
2) transportation when you get there. How easy is it to get around, courtesy car, onsite car rental, etc. A lot of this is already covered in other ideas
30
3) restaurants?
4) alternate destinations - Hey, you chose RWI which has a $15 ramp fee. Did you consider Wilson Industrial, which is 6 miles away with no ramp fee?

I like the information being available. Not sure how to commercialize it.
 
schmookeeg said:
For the last 4 months, I've been paying minions to call each and every one of these shaisters, pose as a pilot of a certain type, and extracting their fees. It's harder than you'd think -- it's like pulling teeth with some of these places.
Click to expand...

I'm sure how viable of a business model that is to "pose" as someone. Why can't you tell them who you are and legitimately ask for a rate sheet? What method do the avgas price compilers use to survey gas prices? For federally obligated airports, the FBO is obligated to disclose the prices they charge for aeronautical services. Perhaps work though the airport sponsor if the business is not providing you the information requested.
 
So you have people posing as pilots and calling FBOs under false pretenses to see if they are honest. Interesting.
 
Your major competition looks to be air nav,which is used by many pilots.you might start by putting the word out at sun n fun. You can even start by giving out info sheets at the air show.
 
Challenged said:
It wasn't really the most accurate term in this instance, since he was upfront about his role in the site:

"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by a grassroots participant(s). It is a practice intended to give the statements or organizations credibility by withholding information about the source's financial connection."
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See: Open Society Foundation
 
Brad Z said:
I'm sure how viable of a business model that is to "pose" as someone. Why can't you tell them who you are and legitimately ask for a rate sheet? What method do the avgas price compilers use to survey gas prices? For federally obligated airports, the FBO is obligated to disclose the prices they charge for aeronautical services. Perhaps work though the airport sponsor if the business is not providing you the information requested.
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Really?

And what's the "federally obligated penalty" when they don't?

Show me any Signature facility that has openly posted pricing.
 
paflyer said:
Really?

And what's the "federally obligated penalty" when they don't?

Show me any Signature facility that has openly posted pricing.
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Grant Assurances 5, 22, 23, and 24. If an airport sponsor is knowingly allowing a service provider on the field to deny access or exercise unjust price discrimination, they may be in violation of their federal obligations. I didn't say the FBO is required to openly post pricing, but if asked, they must be able to provide it. To do otherwise is to effectively deny access to the airport. It's not the FBO that is penalized; grant obligations apply to the airport sponsor, and if the airport becomes non-compliant without a corrective action plan, the airport could loose access to AIP money.
 
Huh, didn't think what we were doing was controversial... huh... will take a crack at defending it I guess.

MANY fbos will NOT release fees to someone they think is calling merely "on behalf of" the pilot. At all. Some won't release fees TO a person posing as a pilot. Some request a "reservation" to disclose fees. Many need to be asked for each and every single fee to disclose, they never give the whole ball.

I can think of no good reason for that policy (other than trying to hide their fees), so we combat it with hand-wavy "I'm flying in in N12345...." and figure it's routine enough for them to not notice.

That said, I want to make this a self-licking ice cream cone, and have it pay for itself. I don't mind losing my seed corn, but I'd like the callers to be able to continue. I hate having to call ahead for fees.


...the idea of narcing an FBO out to the feds over not releasing fees seems like an epic waste of time to me, but if anyone is interested, we now have a database of these types. Knock yourselves out. :)
 
The pushback here seems rather odd to me, as I think what you're doing is fantastic. I'm guessing some of the folks questioning the "ethics" of what you're doing (posing) have yet to encounter the sleaziness of a good deal of FBOs out there that are blatantly anti-GA. The fact it takes theatrics to get them to give ANY information ought to be evidence enough that there is a problem with the system.

In any event, I'm not sure I see spending $$ on "traditional" advertising (print media) being worthwhile. I'd put the money into Facebook (target the larger aviation-type groups), forums and maybe Google. If money allows, some visibility at Sun n' Fun and Oshkosh might really be worth it. I imagine those are big money, though.
 
Brad Z said:
Grant Assurances 5, 22, 23, and 24. If an airport sponsor is knowingly allowing a service provider on the field to deny access or exercise unjust price discrimination, they may be in violation of their federal obligations. I didn't say the FBO is required to openly post pricing, but if asked, they must be able to provide it. To do otherwise is to effectively deny access to the airport. It's not the FBO that is penalized; grant obligations apply to the airport sponsor, and if the airport becomes non-compliant without a corrective action plan, the airport could loose access to AIP money.
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Yeah...heh heh...ok, then.. I'm sure all of these "sponsors" are in full compliance with federal regulations.

Effectively denying access is rampant. Try to take on or drop a passenger without paying a third party troll.
 
I think I understand, you are building a website with all the airports and their fees. That sounds great. To fund the site you want airports to advertise on the site. I can see the local no fee airport buying advertising on the page for the nearby fee-based airport. Where to advertise this website may be just a matter of asking FBO owners what magazines and websites they currently read. Get enough answers to determine a critical mass and there's your target. Eventually, Airnav, fltpln and other flight planning websites may pay a subscription to link to it. They would have a leg up on other sites.

I appreciate this as I call ahead and it's like pulling teeth to get the ramp fee info. I once landed and was told there was a fee. It was waved when I said I called earlier and gave the name of the person who said there was no fee. She was standing there and said
"sorry I forgot."
 
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