HELP! Insurance Claim Denial

So for future reference, How much $$ for each PAPI?
 
Wonder if insurance would pay for the flight check of the new PAPI’s if required? That could make the price of PAPI’s go way higher.
 
Saraq said:
Here is the 172 with the tail wheel conversion. (Damage is on the other side)
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That's probably a pretty good conversion, essentially returning it to its 170 roots. I've hear the later model conversions, with the swept tail, don't have as good of handling characteristics. Not as much rudder authority.
 
midwestpa24 said:
That's probably a pretty good conversion, essentially returning it to its 170 roots. I've hear the later model conversions, with the swept tail, don't have as good of handling characteristics. Not as much rudder authority.
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I had a tailwheel 150 with a swept tail…it was pretty weak in crosswinds with flaps extended.

Of course, with a Horton STOL and 40 degrees of flaps, I really didn’t have to do crosswinds if I didn’t want to. ;)
 
aggie06 said:
And now we all know that there is such a thing as a 172 tail dragger conversion.
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I turned mine into a wing-and-prop dragger once, and insurance did cover it. And the FAA inspected the runway to make sure I didn't gouge it.
 
Saraq said:
Here is the 172 with the tail wheel conversion. (Damage is on the other side)
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That's a really pretty plane. I would've guessed it to be a regular 170. Hope you get her back in the air quickly and without too much drama.
 
Saraq said:
UPDATE:

After speaking with the broker, turns out I did designate that it was a tailwheel on the application (so im not an idiot after all) but there was an error in reporting to the insurance company. Spoke to a lawyer as well and he reassured me that it is between the broker and insurance company to resolve and it will likely be covered. I really appreciate everyone's input and advice! Big sigh of relief for me...pretty sure my blood pressure has been through the roof for the past 3 days.
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You know now to keep copies of all insurance forms.
 
Robert Gee said:
So for future reference, How much $$ for each PAPI?
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I can tell you the FAA wants $10k for a flight check when an airport has to pay for it. I don't recall what we paid when we bought our PAPIs about 5 years ago, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.
 
GaryM said:
Mine did, I had to take the car in to a shop on their approved list, and they took photos. That was for initial insurance with a company known to be picky. Once in their system, I didn’t have to do it for subsequent cars.
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Really? What car insurance company was that??? I've had a half dozen different car insurance carriers and none of them have ever done anything like that.
 
azpilot said:
Really? What car insurance company was that??? I've had a half dozen different car insurance carriers and none of them have ever done anything like that.
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New Jersey Manufacturers. Originally only available to state workers, I got in after they expended coverage to workers at certain “member companies” in NJ. More recently they dropped those restrictions, and perhaps the pre coverage inspection requirement.
 
NJ's insurance marketplace is an unholy mess not equalled by any other state. I chalked it up to a preponderance of personal injury attorneys in the state legislature.
 
I'm in claims, and I think this is on your broker/agent. The insurance company can only go off the information the broker submits to them. Most underwriters are pilots but a C-172 TD is rare enough that UWs my not know it exists and thus not even consider it. But your broker is the one that should feed them the correct information to rate the risk properly. Now, there are pretty dense brokers as well so it may be that the broker didn't think to ask you about the TD either.

I would consult a good AVIATION attorney to at minimum write the insurer and the broker a letter saying that there needs to be coverage for this, since the professional broker is facing a professional liability claim for not properly passing on the proper information to the insurer. In court you will be seen as the innocent party here so it's probably not worth fighting and they'll just pay, and probably go after the broker for reimbursement.

As for papis, don't let them try to upgrade, which they tend to do when they think insurance money is going to pay for it. And if the FAA requires a conformity flight to test the system it's going to cost much more(35k ish, if I remember my last one correctly). The FAA contractor that does it flies a jet, when it can be done with a C-172.
 
Radar Contact said:
Wonder if insurance would pay for the flight check of the new PAPI’s if required? That could make the price of PAPI’s go way higher.
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Yes. I'm in claims and have had to pay it. The FAA has a contractor that does these flights and they flight a Hawker 800 or something, when a Cessna 172 will do. Complete racket.
 
Geosync said:
I would consult a good AVIATION attorney to at minimum write the insurer and the broker a letter saying that there needs to be coverage for this, since the professional broker is facing a professional liability claim for not properly passing on the proper information to the insurer. In court you will be seen as the innocent party here so it's probably not worth fighting and they'll just pay, and probably go after the broker for reimbursement.
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OP's situation isn't a unique issue. I'm sure brokers of all types of insurance have made this mistake (omitting something that should have been transmitted to the carrier). I don't think an aviation lawyer is needed for this. Any lawyer dealing with insurance issues (including insurance bad faith) can likely handle this problem. Ultimately it's likely going to be an issue between the broker and the carrier, and probably the only impact OP is going to feel is either a big premium increase, or cancellation.
 
My insurance application asked very specific questions as shown below. Note that B. asks "Has Aircraft been equipped with any other modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" A tailwheel conversion on a 172 would clearly require a "yes" even if the conversion was performed iaw an STC.

I believe my previous applications for insurance years ago on my C172 had the same or similar question.

Insurance Application Q and A - N601KE.jpg
 
Stan Cooper said:
My insurance application asked very specific questions as shown below. Note that B. asks "Has Aircraft been equipped with any other modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" A tailwheel conversion on a 172 would clearly require a "yes" even if the conversion was performed iaw an STC.

I believe my previous applications for insurance years ago on my C172 had the same or similar question.

View attachment 101416
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That's the ticket. And regardless of what we may say to the broker, we still had to fill that out, and sign it.
 
flyingron said:
NJ's insurance marketplace is an unholy mess not equalled by any other state. I chalked it up to a preponderance of personal injury attorneys in the state legislature.
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I sure a catastrophic storm that hit the state a decade ago has nothing to do with it. It has to be them damn lawyers.
 
Clip4 said:
I sure a catastrophic storm that hit the state a decade ago has nothing to do with it. It has to be them damn lawyers.
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I assure you, NJ insurance was an unholy mess well before Sandy and Irene hit the state.
 
azpilot said:
Really? What car insurance company was that??? I've had a half dozen different car insurance carriers and none of them have ever done anything like that.
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I bet it was Geico. They did this to me.
 
Stan Cooper said:
My insurance application asked very specific questions as shown below. Note that B. asks "Has Aircraft been equipped with any other modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" A tailwheel conversion on a 172 would clearly require a "yes" even if the conversion was performed iaw an STC.

I believe my previous applications for insurance years ago on my C172 had the same or similar question.

View attachment 101416
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All agents have their own forms. This one may be more detailed than another one.

kgruber said:
The 1st law of insurance is:

1. Insurance companies are not in business to pay claims.
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Insurance companies are most certainly in business to pay claims. They set up reserves and register with state insurance commissioners to pay claims. Those reserves are recognition now that they will pay claims in the future. When they create the reserves, they’re telling the states they are planning to pay those claims. Most run these things through reinsurance deals where it’s even harder to change the reserves and the original company has little incentive to do so.

Insurance companies make their money on the investment side. They are generally required to stay in less risky investments like bonds and other things that have lower returns. That’s the biggest reason for the higher rates lately - returns on those types of investments have been depressed lately so premiums have to make up for it.
 
Insurance is just legalized gambling. You're betting you will crash, or die, or whatever, and the insurance company is betting you won't... and as always, the odds favor the house, so they can make a profit and stay in business.
 
Clip4 said:
I sure a catastrophic storm that hit the state a decade ago has nothing to do with it. It has to be them damn lawyers.
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If you're talking about Superstorm Sandy, it had nothing to do with it. The mess there existed long before that. The problem is arcane insurance regulations unique to NJ that results in a third of the state being in a state-mismanaged insurance pool which is financed by surcharges on regular policies. My insurance rates dropped by 80% when I moved from NJ to VA (same insurance company).
 
Dana said:
Insurance is just legalized gambling. You're betting you will crash, or die, or whatever, and the insurance company is betting you won't... and as always, the odds favor the house, so they can make a profit and stay in business.
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No. Insurance is risk transfer. Unlike gambling, the risk of loss exists whether or not you participate. The insurer is someone better able to bear that risk and agrees to bear that risk instead of you in exchange for a premium.
 
If you have a large claim............say like our King Air that nearly burned to the ground............the VERY first thing to do is hire an attorney that specializes in insurance claims.
 
kgruber said:
If you have a large claim............the VERY first thing to do is hire an attorney that specializes in insurance claims.
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I learned this the hard way. Should woulda coulda. Maybe it wasn't a large enough claim, but I do wish I had an attorney on my side.
 
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