Help: I fear I have beome a "with you" snob

Yeah, so I'll try the 'flight level zero four five' next time and see how it goes over.

Not.
 
AOPA 'say it right' coarse recommends you say "Nxxxxx level, six thousand five hundred."

Or, "Nxxxx climbing (descending) to xxxx feet." You don't say 6.5 for six thousand five hundred feet. You call it out.

You don't have to say 'with you' because they already know you are with them. What they want to know is how high you are, and if you're climbing or descending. If the X-ponder is painting correctly.:)
 
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txflyer said:
....You don't have to say 'with you' because they already know you are with them. .....
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Not if you are a hand off and you are checking in with them for the first time to the new sector..:yes:
 
N801BH said:
Not if you are a hand off and you are checking in with them for the first time to the new sector..:yes:
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:no:

They are expecting your call because they had to accept the handoff before the previous controller told you to change frequencies. So exactly what information does "with you" convey that they don't already know as soon as you say your call sign?
 
It's sort of like the word "REQUEST" (with nothing after it). More often than not it's silly. If you're not already in an exchange with the controller, just give your call sign, he'll know you're requesting something because otherwise you wouldn't have called him.

It's like saying "Can I ask you a question?" To which the answer is "You just did."
 
Palmpilot said:
:no:

They are expecting your call because they had to accept the handoff before the previous controller told you to change frequencies. So exactly what information does "with you" convey that they don't already know as soon as you say your call sign?
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If I was a controller and a aircraft just said their call sign and nothing else... I would be curious if they had a request :dunno:, or were seeking a route change :dunno: or declare an emergency:dunno:.. The two simple words of "with you" convey the message the aircraft is checking in. Nothing more, nothing less....

For a test, next time you go flying ,just key up the mic and announce your N number and nothing else and see what happens..:D No matter if you are on ground, or tower, or approach or enroute center freq during a FF phase.... I have 5 bucks they will call ya back and say " what do you need".. IMHO.
 
flyingron said:
It's sort of like the word "REQUEST" (with nothing after it). More often than not it's silly.
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I was taught to say "request" by my CFII, who was a controller. He said "request lets the controller know you need something and allows him to prepare and get back to you when workload permits." Kind of like a controller telling you to advise when ready to copy.
 
flyingron said:
It's sort of like the word "REQUEST" (with nothing after it). More often than not it's silly. If you're not already in an exchange with the controller, just give your call sign, he'll know you're requesting something because otherwise you wouldn't have called him.

It's like saying "Can I ask you a question?" To which the answer is "You just did."
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I do it on a busy frequency because it's short and lets the controller know I'm in need of a bit of his time. He may be working something else at that moment that he's about to rattle off at someone else. If I give my full statement, I'm just tying up frequency at a point where he isn't able to give attention, and I'll end up repeating it all over again anyway.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I was taught to say "request" by my CFII, who was a controller. He said "request lets the controller know you need something and allows him to prepare and get back to you when workload permits." Kind of like a controller telling you to advise when ready to copy.
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Same here.
 
N801BH said:
If I was a controller and a aircraft just said their call sign and nothing else... I would be curious if they had a request :dunno:, or were seeking a route change :dunno: or declare an emergency:dunno:.. The two simple words of "with you" convey the message the aircraft is checking in. Nothing more, nothing less....

For a test, next time you go flying ,just key up the mic and announce your N number and nothing else and see what happens..:D No matter if you are on ground, or tower, or approach or enroute center freq during a FF phase.... I have 5 bucks they will call ya back and say " what do you need".. IMHO.
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On a handoff, I was taught to say the name of the facility I am calling, my call sign, and my altitude, together with climbing, level, or descending. I have done that many times, and there has never been any misunderstanding.

For everything else, I was taught to say "the four things": Who I'm calling, who I am, where I am, and what I want. The one exception to that is that approach controllers around here have let it be known that the only thing they want to hear on an initial call that's not a handoff is who you're calling and your call sign. I have done that many times, and there has never been any misunderstanding.
 
Palmpilot said:
...... I have done that many times, and there has never been any misunderstanding.
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I have done the " with you" hundreds of times and there was NEVER any misunderstanding either......

You do it your way.... I will do it mine.....

Over and out...:yes:;)
 
N801BH said:
I have done the " with you" hundreds of times and there was NEVER any misunderstanding either......

You do it your way.... I will do it mine.....

Over and out...:yes:;)
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Fine with me. I'm not claiming that "with you" causes problems. I'm only claiming that the lack of it does not cause problems.
 
Despite Henning's suggestion to get off the internet I think this thread helped me stop caring about it much. Thanks, fellers!

FWIW there are a bunch of things people say on the radio that really aren't at all correct, and none of them really bother me. My issue was not 'with you', but that one day all of a sudden I started caring about it, caring about something not worth getting riled up over. Like the beginnings of an old-man curmudgeon.

Now I'll just 'take the active' and get outta here. Any traffic in the area, please advise :D
 
At Pensacola I was told "with you" is usually followed by "over and out", but proceeded by "Air Force (side number)".
 
Immelman said:
Despite Henning's suggestion to get off the internet I think this thread helped me stop caring about it much. Thanks, fellers!

FWIW there are a bunch of things people say on the radio that really aren't at all correct, and none of them really bother me. My issue was not 'with you', but that one day all of a sudden I started caring about it, caring about something not worth getting riled up over. Like the beginnings of an old-man curmudgeon.

Now I'll just 'take the active' and get outta here. Any traffic in the area, please advise :D
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Time to start wearing your pants around your nipples and hollering at kids to stay off your lawn....:D
 
Late to the thread, but as others have said, no one REALLY cares... but I taught myself to replace "with you" with "level", "climbing", or "descending". I figured it was worth the personal effort and was so simple, I could probably teach my dog to do it.

(Which leaves a joke for the AKC trainability score for most pilots dangling, but I'll let you figure it out...) GRIN...

I don't care or cringe when I hear other people doing it, though. That seems to be a theme more and more with me as I get older, actually...

I really don't care if YOU are a screw-up and can't find your head with two cattle prods, an HID light, and a bottle of whiskey to numb the pain. Doesn't bother me at all, unless you've decided to be "extroverted" with your stupidity and it starts to affect me in some fashion.

In case of export-quality stupidity, break glass, remove clue-stick, whap repeatedly until stupid person goes away to bother someone else... Typically used at the office more than in my personal life, since I just move quickly and quietly to the exit of any utilization of weapons of mass stupidity.

There's always going to be roughly 20% of the bell curve that isn't EVER going to get anything... yay math and science!
 
Bill Jennings said:
I was taught to say "request" by my CFII, who was a controller. He said "request lets the controller know you need something and allows him to prepare and get back to you when workload permits." Kind of like a controller telling you to advise when ready to copy.
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I think it'd be funnier to just ask them to report when they're ready to copy... LOL!

"Denver Approach, Skylane 1279M, request. Advise when ready to copy." ROFL!!!
 
If you call him (and it's not the initial handoff) then he knows you want something. What is it other than a request? You just lonely?

And if it's short, just ask.

Atlanta Center, Bugsmasher 123, we've got a request if you've got a minute.
Busmasher 123 Go ahead.
Atlanta, we'd like to go down to 4000 feet if that's ok by you.
Bugsmasher 123 Descend and maintain 4000

how about

Atlanta Center Navion 27K Request 4000.
 
N801BH said:
I have done the " with you" hundreds of times and there was NEVER any misunderstanding either......

You do it your way.... I will do it mine.....
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I had also said "with you" as habit, probably thousands of times.

But when someone pointed out it was redundant, I made the effort to change. It's just not that hard.

Add'l points:

1) When attempting to get flight following, I give my ID, position and altitude, followed by "VFR request". I think it allows the controller to prioritize my call, and to let me know if he's too busy, or give me another frequency if I have the wrong frequency for my sector/altitude.

2) Be careful with the use of the word "To" and "For". "Climbing to three thousand" and "Climbing, two-three thousand" sound identical but have very different meanings. Similarly, "For" and "Four" can get confused. Yes, two-three thousand would generally be stated as a flight level, but still...

3) Contollers and airline pilots are not always shining examples of correct phraseology, and most times it does not matter. Still, every once in a while poor phraseology causes confusion, and confusion is not a good thing when hurtling along at high speed in what may be congested airspace.
 
FastEddieB said:
1) When attempting to get flight following, I give my ID, position and altitude, followed by "VFR request". I think it allows the controller to prioritize my call, and to let me know if he's too busy, or give me another frequency if I have the wrong frequency for my sector/altitude.
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If he's not already working you, or expecting you. Then your priority VFR or otherwise is the same as anybody else. What's the point of giving him position and altitude without telling him why? VFR REQUEST conveys NO USEFUL INFORMATION. Why not say "Flight Following to PODUNK" or "Request class B Transition to Podunk" or whatever it is you want.
2) Be careful with the use of the word "To" and "For". "Climbing to three thousand" and "Climbing, two-three thousand" sound identical but have very different meanings. Similarly, "For" and "Four" can get confused. Yes, two-three thousand would generally be stated as a flight level, but still...
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This is why rather than inventing terminology, we have the AIM, the controllers handbook, and the P/CG.

Here is the exact call up suggested in these documents:

1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).

2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).
​

It works 100% of the time with no confusion. No WITH YOU, or other nonsense mentioned nor required. I've been using call ups of the form "ATLANTA CENTER NAVION 5327K LEVEL 6000" IFR or VFR for the past 20 years and it's never been an issue.

3) Contollers and airline pilots are not always shining examples of correct phraseology, and most times it does not matter. Still, every once in a while poor phraseology causes confusion, and confusion is not a good thing when hurtling along at high speed in what may be congested airspace.
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Nor are forum posters apparently.
 
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Henning said:
It's unnecessary and also pointed to as a no-no in the AIM. Identify yourself with a position call and you will hear the others in the pattern respond with their position call. NORDO aircraft will not hear to respond regardless.
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Expanding on ATITPPA a little.

A what if scenario...
I'm 10 miles out inbound for a uncontrolled airport, I've checked the ATIS and it is reporting calm no wind, I know I am using left hand pattern but I have a choice of runways available, I'm listening but don't hear any aircraft announce their position in the pattern, so should I key the mike and ask any aircraft at XXXX please advise of current active runway ?
 
Xscaliber said:
Expanding on ATITPPA a little.

A what if scenario...
I'm 10 miles out inbound for a uncontrolled airport, I've checked the ATIS and it is reporting calm no wind, I know I am using left hand pattern but I have a choice of runways available, I'm listening but don't hear any aircraft announce their position in the pattern, so should I key the mike and ask any aircraft at XXXX please advise of current active runway ?
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My 10mi call:

Peapatch unicom beercan 666 is 10 north request airport advisory peapatch.

Yeah yeah, I know, airport advisorys are old school. But if someone is in the pattern they will normally respond with runway in use.

Absent that, pick a runway, then

My 5mi call:

Peapatch traffic beercan 666 is 5 north setting up to enter the downwind for XX runway peapatch.

Next call will be downwind.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Yeah yeah, I know, airport advisorys are old school. But if someone is in the pattern they will normally respond with runway in use.
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Yes, just like they will if you don't ask for airport advisories. It's just more unnecessary frequency clutter, IMO.

If you and Big Al would simply state your intentions (if you have the ATIS info) in your initial call "Podunk Traffic, Bugsmasher 123, 10 miles SSE, 2500', landing 36, Podunk" you'll get plenty of feedback from the other bug smashers at Podunk if they don't like your plan.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
But first check in. N6496R with you, Any traffic in the area please advise.
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I just combine as much as I can on those on my IFR check-in: "Minneapolis Center Spamcan 662 Tango with you level at flight level 050, any traffic in the area please advise, over."

:rofl:
 
Xscaliber said:
Expanding on ATITPPA a little.

A what if scenario...
I'm 10 miles out inbound for a uncontrolled airport, I've checked the ATIS and it is reporting calm no wind, I know I am using left hand pattern but I have a choice of runways available, I'm listening but don't hear any aircraft announce their position in the pattern, so should I key the mike and ask any aircraft at XXXX please advise of current active runway ?
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Whichever runway you want to use, if you know the winds, you should have that figured out and announce it and your planned entry. If your plans will create a conflict, someone will let you know.
 
BTW, what uncontrolled airports have ATIS? AWOS I've heard, can't recall ATIS without a tower, and ATIS always gives the runway.
 
Xscaliber said:
Expanding on ATITPPA a little.

A what if scenario...
..please advise of current active runway ?
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At an uncontrolled airport the only safe thing to do is assume all runways are active. Because that's often the case.

Really, the concept of 'active runway' does not exist in the absence of a operational control tower.
 
JimNtexas said:
At an uncontrolled airport the only safe thing to do is assume all runways are active. Because that's often the case.

Really, the concept of 'active runway' does not exist in the absence of a operational control tower.
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That's what I was poking fun at in my last post, with 'the active' remark. This is a big issue where I fly, not ranting here, a genuine safety issue if the runway is not specified:

"podunk traffic, cessna 123 taking THE ACTIVE..."

(well which runway is it, there are 4 to choose from at my home field).
 
Minor terminology issues...

FAA prefers "non-towered" over "uncontrolled".

As pointed out, at a non-towered airport, a runway is "favored", not "active".

Not to hijack, but I virtually always overfly a non-towered airport about 500' above the pattern to get a visual on the wind direction indicator, to look for wildlife or obstacles on the runway, and to get a better vantage point from which to spot traffic in the pattern.

I was taught that way and have taught it that way for years.

Not mandatory or regulatory, but it works for me!
 
FastEddieB said:
2) Be careful with the use of the word "To" and "For". "Climbing to three thousand" and "Climbing, two-three thousand" sound identical but have very different meanings. Similarly, "For" and "Four" can get confused. Yes, two-three thousand would generally be stated as a flight level, but still...
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You just refuted your own point.

If you follow the AIM recommended terminology, there is no ambiguity, since, as you point out, two-three thousand is not AIM-recommended terminology. "To three thousand" is AIM-recommended terminology.

And in an effort to "improve on" what the AIM recommends, a new ambiguity is introduced, because, for example, if you're at one thousand, and you say "climbing three thousand," it sounds like you're increasing your altitude by three thousand feet, which would have you leveling off at 4000.
 
Richard,

Note I just advised to "be careful" with two/to and four/for.

To which I meant to be aware that there were times when using the words had potential for confusion.

That's all.
 
LDJones said:
Maybe "Good morning, hope the coffee is good..." would be a good opening?
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FWIW, "The coffee... is HOT" has been used by certain folks, with great hilarity, when the FAA was out ramp checking folks.
 
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