Help Explain: Best Possible Speed

[Sinistar]

This weekend I flew to the Delta where I originally trained. I like to go there about every 4th flight or so to practice T&G's on the long runway and generally keep familiar in a busier, controlled airport. I often learn something new and that day added another lesson.

I did my normal approach, got ATIS and announced 10miles out. I was already flying into a light headwind so this would be either a long straight in 10L or 10R or a right base for 10R. They asked me to announce at 3miles for a straight in on 10R. About 3.5miles out I announced "Skylane12Q 3miles straight in 10R". And the response was "Cessna12Q Cleared to land 10R, make best possible speed". Actually they may have said "Best Forward Speed" so not quite sure there? I repeated it back.

So I just kept it flying normal (about 140mph ground speed). I knew if I got to 1 mile at this configuration I'd only have 30sec and screw it all up. So about 1.75miles out I pulled carb heat and first notch of flaps (okay in the 182) - that combo really starts slowing things down. I then pulled the power back a lot more than I would normally at that distance straight out. I needed to get under 100mph for 20deg flaps and that took a bit longer than I expected. That slowed me down enough that I was able to go 30deg, push the prop in and then 40deg and by then I was on short final with 3white/1red. Slipped it pretty good and landed about 300ft beyond where I normally would.

So you can tell it was new to me and rushed. At the same time I wanted to give my best shot and could always go around. I figured this was to help other landing traffic farther out? Or maybe they were planning to move pattern traffic on 10L to 10R.

So my normal round of questions

1.) What exactly does "Best Possible Speed" mean from ATC's directive.
2.) Was I supposed to report the speed I was comfortable with and then fly that speed?
3.) Is there a distance from the airport where this directive no longer matters (eg. 2 miles)?
4.) Is there also a "Best Forward Speed"? If so how is it different?
5.) For something slower like us GA planes, what is a good distance to start slowing down and still meet their needs?
6.) Lets say you are unable (read: uncomfortable with this) should you just say 'Unable" or say something like "Unable, prefer a base leg to final"?

 

[James331]

Sounds like you did it right.

Just expedite as best as you can, and you don't need to say your speed or anything.

 

[exncsurfer]

You're the PIC, so I would say the 'best speed' is as fast as you feel comfortable. If you're still moving too slow for them, they'll issue you a go around.

 

[champ driver]

1. Keep your speed up as long as possible and don't drop flaps and gear early like on a normal approach.
2. No
3. Whatever you're comfortable and capable of, depending on your plane.
4.Same as No. 1
5. Depends on the plane, maybe less than 1 mile, on my Champ it's measured in yards.
6. Yes, don't let anyone force you into a situation you're not comfortable and capable of.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

You did fine except I'm going to share a couple important Skylane flying tips:

Even though the book says it is ok to do so, don't drop 10 degrees of flap until you are in the white arc. Why? If you've ever had to pay to replace broken flap track brackets (the thin aluminum that holds the flap track to the wing skin), you'd understand. It is invasive surgery, and after seeing several 182s with similar issues, I'm convinced it due to repeated excessive flap deployment speeds.

So how do you slow down quickly? You don't. You plan for enough time to slow from cruise to the white arc, but here is the last set of tips of the day: Once you are in the white arc, you can really put on the brakes. Drop the first 10 degrees, pull the MP smoothly to below the green arc, and drop in 20 degrees of flaps. If you need some add braking, push the prop control full forward and that spinning disk in front of you will become a nice air brake too.

Slowing to a stable approach 2 miles out is perfectly reasonable, and your speed to that point was fine. If it isn't working for the controller, then he let things get stacked up too close and either the guy behind you needs some vectors for spacing, you he'll have to give you a go around. Stuff happens, and you will get messed up spacing at times. Learn to pay attention to what is going on in front of you in the pattern and help the controller by slowing appropriately if there is slow traffic in front of you. I don't have a problem keeping my speed up if there is a twin or jet behind me, but if a Cirrus or Bo thinks I'm going to rush my approach because they decided to come screaming into the airspace, I'm not going to go far out of my way to help them out.

 

[GRG55]

If you are cleared to land that runway is yours (unless ATC subsequently instructs you to go around). And you as PIC hold all the responsibility of executing a safe landing.

1. "Best speed" request is simply a request by ATC to fly the approach at the highest speed you are comfortable with. He's likely asking for assistance to maintain spacing for faster traffic following you. Sounds to me you did exactly the right thing, and did not try to go any faster than your comfort level.
2. No you don't need to report your speed. You always have the option of saying "Unable" if you think ATC is asking for something outside your comfort as a pilot.
3. It's a request more than a directive.
4. Whatever terminology used it's the same thing...what's the highest approach speed YOU are comfortable with on that day, on that runway, in that airplane, with whatever winds & other conditions prevail. No set number. Your discretion.
5. Your discretion. See 4 above.
6. Yes.

 

[EdFred]

You did what you were comfortable with, but 30 seconds is actually a long time. I just went over this with a student when we were talking emergency procedures and he said "xx isn't that much time!" I started a stopwatch, and we sat there and waited, and waited, and waited. So start the timer on your phone and just sit there and do nothing for 30 seconds and see how long it actually is. Skylane takes what, 5 seconds to set trim, flaps, flaps (cowl), mixture and prop on final?

 

[EdFred]

So how do you slow down quickly? You don't.

I disagree. A slip can be used for more things than losing altitude or crosswind landings. Pull power, slip, put the nose up a little, watch the airspeed bleed off in a hurry, landing gear speed, drop gear, flap speed, extend flaps, stabilize.

Even in the Comanche I can go from in the yellow arc to touchdown in under a mile.

 

[denverpilot]

I disagree. A slip can be used for more things than losing altitude or crosswind landings. Pull power, slip, put the nose up a little, watch the airspeed bleed off in a hurry, landing gear speed, drop gear, flap speed, extend flaps, stabilize.

Even in the Comanche I can go from in the yellow arc to touchdown in under a mile.

This. And keeping the nose UP while slowing is the key in the Skylane also. It’s a drag monster. Way too easy to slow it up.

 

[steingar]

I was once asked to expedite my climb. I answered that my Cherokee's climb was about as expedited as it was going to get. Anyone asks me to speed up my approach in the Mooney is going to get queried about their runway length.

 

[frfly172]

Best possible speed,is a speed you are comfortable and safe with,and able to make a controled landing.

 

[EdFred]

I was once asked to expedite my climb. I answered that my Cherokee's climb was about as expedited as it was going to get. Anyone asks me to speed up my approach in the Mooney is going to get queried about their runway length.

Why? Same wing as the Comanche, and I have no issues getting slowed down. Maybe you need some more time with a CFI in the right seat to show you some tricks.

 

[tawood]

...Anyone asks me to speed up my approach in the Mooney is going to get queried about their runway length.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to already know that?

§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include -


(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I disagree. A slip can be used for more things than losing altitude or crosswind landings. Pull power, slip, put the nose up a little, watch the airspeed bleed off in a hurry, landing gear speed, drop gear, flap speed, extend flaps, stabilize.

Even in the Comanche I can go from in the yellow arc to touchdown in under a mile.

While I don't disagree with you, we are talking to a student pilot, and the emphasis should be on stabilized approaches. I was also taught, as a student pilot, to use slips and S-turns to slow and descend rapidly. But especially as a student, those techniques should be used for emergencies or when field conditions/location require it, not just because you have faster traffic behind you.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

This. And keeping the nose UP while slowing is the key in the Skylane also. It’s a drag monster. Way too easy to slow it up.

Last time I checked, pitching/trimming up to slow down was Aviation 101. I thought that went without saying...

For a student pilot, particularly one who may have started in the 152 or 172, the 182's extra mass/inertia takes a bit of getting used to, and in "clean" configuration, it does not slow as quickly as its smaller stablemates.

 

[EdFred]

I thought he already had his private. If he is still a student yeah probably not something to do solo the first couple times.

 

[Tantalum]

At the same time I wanted to give my best shot and could always go around

Sounds like you did pretty good! I have always interpreted that instruction similarly. Basically, I go as fast as I comfortable and realistically can. If that's not good enough they'll figure it out

Just expedite as best as you can, and you don't need to say your speed or anything.

I've been asked about my speed before. One time they just turned me to intercept the ILS.. it was windy that day so my GS diminished as I went from the downwind and got vectored onto the ILS. It was on the ILS intercept leg that ATC asked "say speed" so I gave them "168 indicated". I figured though the question about speed was not a subtle hint to get me to go faster, but more for them to maybe get a better idea about the winds and what they could anticipate on the traffic behind me when they did their similar turn

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Good learning post Brad. Thanks for asking.

 

[steingar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to already know that?

§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include -


(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use

Helps a bit for emphasis. Sort of like the last time I got pulled over by the police. Officer asked me why I thought he'd pulled me over. I responded that it was because I'd allowed him to do so.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I did that once at Denver in my Husky. I was 120 knots, about as fast as I could go and on the parallel runway approach was a Boeing going about as slow as he could. Captain looked over at me and smiled. Gave the tower a nice flyby (I was touch and go).

 

[wsuffa]

Sounds like you did fine. This is routine at some airports with mixed jet/piston traffic like those in Class B airports (CLT has done it fairly routinely - fortunately, a 10,000' runway lets you bleed off speed as you head for the past-center turnoff).

I had an uncomfortable situation once where tower said - "best forward speed, expedite approach, make close in base - there is a T-6 on long straight-in".

Uh, yep, cut it a bit too short on the base leg. Yes, my VGs helped bail me out. Yes, I ended up going around, way too close for comfort. No, I won't do that again - next time it will be "I'll follow the Texan".

 

[dmspilot]

Last time I checked, pitching/trimming up to slow down was Aviation 101. I thought that went without saying...

You would be surprised.

It's like those people who drive thinking they always have to be pushing one pedal or the other.

 

[labbadabba]

I disagree. A slip can be used for more things than losing altitude or crosswind landings. Pull power, slip, put the nose up a little, watch the airspeed bleed off in a hurry, landing gear speed, drop gear, flap speed, extend flaps, stabilize.

Even in the Comanche I can go from in the yellow arc to touchdown in under a mile.

Yep, had to do this last week breaking in new cylinders in a 182. Had to keep the power above 20" so I came in pretty hot into the pattern. Flew 130kias on the downwind, turned base and then on 1 mile final I slipped it pretty good while pulling up the nose. After just a few seconds in the slip, carb heat, flaps, flaps, mixture, and prop; by then we were about 80kias but still at 20" MAP, chopped the power on short final and had a nice (but not smooth) landing at 60kias. If there's one thing a 182 is good at, it's slowing down.

 

[denverpilot]

You would be surprised.

It's like those people who drive thinking they always have to be pushing one pedal or the other.

It’s going to take me a long time going across town today using your “don’t push on the accelerator pedal” technique.

Man, I didn’t even know I was doing it wrong.

 

[Tantalum]

It's like those people who drive thinking they always have to be pushing one pedal or the other

This seems to be common with people that are paid to drive, IE, Uber, Lyft, taxi service, etc. Seems they like to be constantly hitting either the gas or the brake. Makes for a very nauseating and unpleasant commute experience

Never sat in a car driven by a friend, etc., who drove like this though

 

[asicer]

It's like those people who drive thinking they always have to be pushing one pedal or the other.

That would be me: gas for acceleration or constant cruise, brake for stopping, clutch for coasting.

Now that I think about it I do use cruise control a lot, so nevermind.

 

[dmspilot]

That would be me: gas for acceleration or constant cruise, brake for stopping, clutch for coasting.

Now that I think about it I do use cruise control a lot, so nevermind.

Can't say I've ever felt a need to push the clutch in to coast.

 

[arkvet]

Although I am pleased with my primary PPL training I think this is one area that I may have developed a bad habit of the timing of the "stabilized approach". I mostly fly in and out of rather sleepy podunk municipals so poking around at approach speeds with flaps deployed 5+ miles out or at the beginning of the downwind leg is not a big deal. However, as I've been heavy in IFR training (different CFII) I've learned the importance of flying deeper into the approach and knowing just how much time I need to get stabilized (before the FAF in IFR). One of the first flights I had in actual IMC with this CFII we were on an approach to a busy class Delta. I slowed down and pulled flaps well before the FAF and he said "WTH are you doing? You gotta remember that vast majority of things flying in these clouds with you are much faster than you (PA-32) and you better get used to keeping that speed up... they're gonna mention it a lot if you're at 90 knots this far out."

With those lessons I've learned to treat every approach as a "keep your speed up" approach, but also keeping in mind certain situations necessitate earlier setup than others (Short / Soft / heavier crosswind / etc.)

 

[jordane93]

Although I am pleased with my primary PPL training I think this is one area that I may have developed a bad habit of the timing of the "stabilized approach". I mostly fly in and out of rather sleepy podunk municipals so poking around at approach speeds with flaps deployed 5+ miles out or at the beginning of the downwind leg is not a big deal. However, as I've been heavy in IFR training (different CFII) I've learned the importance of flying deeper into the approach and knowing just how much time I need to get stabilized (before the FAF in IFR). One of the first flights I had in actual IMC with this CFII we were on an approach to a busy class Delta. I slowed down and pulled flaps well before the FAF and he said "WTH are you doing? You gotta remember that vast majority of things flying in these clouds with you are much faster than you (PA-32) and you better get used to keeping that speed up... they're gonna mention it a lot if you're at 90 knots this far out."

With those lessons I've learned to treat every approach as a "keep your speed up" approach, but also keeping in mind certain situations necessitate earlier setup than others (Short / Soft / heavier crosswind / etc.)

There’s a time and place for both. There needs to be building blocks though. You can’t teach a primary student to stay at Vne until 2 miles and dirty up when they’re first learning landings. Eventually you can teach them how the plane can settle but you can also teach them when to tell ATC unable.

 

[EdFred]

There’s a time and place for both. There needs to be building blocks though. You can’t teach a primary student to stay at Vne until 2 miles and dirty up when they’re first learning landings. Eventually you can teach them how the plane can settle but you can also teach them when to tell ATC unable.

Nope. You have them at Vne until then and then pull the power to idle and scream at them "land this bizzitch!"

 

[Velocity173]

1) doesn’t mean anything because it’s not in their directive.
2) No.
3) Technically you shouldn’t get speed adjustments within 5 miles of the runway, but follow the instruction until you hear “resume normal speed.”
4) No. “Maintain maximum forward speed” is though. 99.9 percent sure that’s what the controller in question was wanting.
5) You can say “unable” but without assigning you a specific speed, it wouldn’t make much sense. You’re current speed could be your maximum forward speed that you’re comfortable with. It doesn’t mean to fire wall it. It means to fly as fast as you’re comfortable with on final without blowing through 200 KIAS...if indeed your aircraft is even capable of hitting that speed.

 

[jordane93]

Nope. You have them at Vne until then and then pull the power to idle and scream at them "land this bizzitch!"

And welcome back

 

[asicer]

Can't say I've ever felt a need to push the clutch in to coast.

Yeah, sometimes I press on the dead pedal instead.

 

[steingar]

Last time I checked, pitching/trimming up to slow down was Aviation 101. I thought that went without saying...

Try doing it in something other than a trainer and let us know how it went. I combine fast in my aircraft and I could wind up floating all the way to China.

 

[EdFred]

Try doing it in something other than a trainer and let us know how it went. I combine fast in my aircraft and I could wind up floating all the way to China.

Went fine. My plane is just as fast or faster than yours with the same wing. Get some more training.

 

[steingar]

Went fine. My plane is just as fast or faster than yours with the same wing. Get some more training.

Comanches do not float like Mooneys at all. Yeah, the wing is similar, but that's about it. My Mooney is fast because its clean. Your Comanche is fast because it has a honking big power plant up front.

 

[EdFred]

Comanches do not float like Mooneys at all. Yeah, the wing is similar, but that's about it. My Mooney is fast because its clean. Your Comanche is fast because it has a honking big power plant up front.

Wrong answer, because they absolutely do. If I'm 3kts fast I float just like a Mooney because it's the exact same wing. Put me in the right seat, and I will show you how it's done. I will even stop by TZR if you want.

 

[steingar]

Wrong answer, because they absolutely do. If I'm 3kts fast I float just like a Mooney because it's the exact same wing. Put me in the right seat, and I will show you how it's done.

Already know. I can deal with 10 knots fast. I can't deal with 20, and neither can you unless the runway is just that big.

 

[EdFred]

Already know. I can deal with 10 knots fast. I can't deal with 20, and neither can you unless the runway is just that big.

You can slow your Mooney from cruise speed to touchdown speed to starting less than 1 mile from the numbers. Not starting the slow down AT the numbers. In fact, we will go up, and if I can't get the Mooney to touchdown speed from cruise speed a mile from the numbers, I will wear Buckeye gear every Saturday next football season.

If I can, all you have to dois admit someone from Ann Arbor was smarter than you on here by putting it in your signature for football season. I won't even make you wear Maize and Blue.

 

[Sinistar]

I thought he already had his private. If he is still a student yeah probably not something to do solo the first couple times.

Lets just say the ink is still wet on the PPL

You know, I swear I learn something new just about every time I go back to a Delta after living the country life. This time it was the "Maintain maximum forward speed" (thanks @Velocity173!).

So it sounds like I more or less did the right thing. And equally important, it doesn't sound alike a specific directive where if I didn't repeat it back perfectly or started to slow down a bit too early it would result in a PD (I'm still a little tender there!).

I good takeaway here is to practice slowing down more quickly. I am pretty comfortable with a straight in final and unwinding the downwind and base into a straight line. But this instance compressed that sequence a bit more. Clearly I should be able to get the Skylane slowed down darned fast if needed.

Both of my PPL instructors had me using the first 10deg flaps above the white arc so Jeff's comments regarding possible issues is now registered in my brain.