Has something about IFR clearances changed?

V

VA Aviator

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
133
Location
Virginia
Display Name
Display name:
VA Aviator
I haven't been instrument current in almost a decade, so forgive me if I'm just being dumb and over-thinking this.

I was watching this video and I noticed something odd about the way the IFR clearance was given. I've watched the first 10 minutes over and over to see if I missed something.


Here is a synopsis if you don't want to watch the first 10 minutes of the video:

The flight departs under what appears to be VMC
The pilot contacts approach control and the following exchange with ATC takes place:

N390GM: Indy premier 390GM off executive
Indy: N390GM Indy Approach maintain VFR squawk 6721
N390GM: 6721 0GM
Indy: 390GM Radar contact 2 miles NE (Indy Executive), climb and maintain 13,000, proceed direct SNEVA, say altitude leaving
N390GM: 13,000 direct SNEVA We're out of 3900, 0GM

Given the controller provided a code and instructed the pilot to "remain VFR" it would seem to me that this was a VFR departure/airborne clearance scenario. However, what struck me as being odd was that a "traditional" clearance wasn't given - no clearance limit, no final altitude, no routing other than the fix on the SID. A quick check of the AIM seems to indicate that nothing has changed in this regard.

I suppose that one possible explanation is that a clearance could have been obtained on the ground but the transponder was not set (if you pause at 4:33 you can see the 1200 code on the FMS). Seeing the 1200 code and thinking it was a VFR departure/airborne clearance, the controller would have assigned the code and usual "maintain VFR" but once he went to obtain the clearance he saw that the flight was in fact already under IFR.

Or, is this some new way of saying "cleared to the destination as filed" with fewer words?
Or just bad phrasology/communication?
 
Havent listened. Clearance limit, route and altitude are essential elements of an IFR clearance. That hasn't changed. What you guessed coulda happenned. There's other "scenarios" that could have occurred that would explain it, including lack of attention to detail on the controllers part
 
Someone must have known something since he was cleared to 23,000 which is Class A airspace and IFR only at 11:45 in the video.
 
He probably had a clearance on the ground...the initial "remain VFR" was until he was radar identified. The squawk might've been because he forgotten to set it prior to takeoff.
 
MauleSkinner said:
He probably had a clearance on the ground...the initial "remain VFR" was until he was radar identified. The squawk might've been because he forgotten to set it prior to takeoff.
Click to expand...

Umm, having departed IFR into IMC from uncontrolled fields in the past, this seems non-standard to me. What would be the point of departing IFR if you would have to remain VFR?

What if had been IMC upon departure?
 
VA Aviator said:
Umm, having departed IFR into IMC from uncontrolled fields in the past, this seems non-standard to me. What would be the point of departing IFR if you would have to remain VFR?

What if had been IMC upon departure?
Click to expand...
Then things would have been different.

If you could come up with his actual clearance prior to departure, it would make sense.
 
I haven't watched the video, but if it shows what you've transcribed, then you're right that something is missing. Is it possible the clearance was edited out of the video? It doesn't make sense to me that he'd be told to remain VFR if he'd been given the clearance on the ground. Conditions shouldn't matter - if you're on an IFR clearance, you shouldn't be told to maintain VFR. My guess is it was an airborne pickup and part of the exchange was edited out.
 
Ask your question in the comments section of that video. Greg is great about answering questions that are posted.
 
- if you're on an IFR clearance, you shouldn't be told to maintain VFR.
Click to expand...
That's not true. There are two times it's appropriate (at least)

The first is when you ask for a pop-up clearance, ATC can ask you if you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance and if you can, they will clear you IFR with a maintain VFR.

The second is when the pilot specifically asks for a VFR climb.
 
I don't clearly hear "maintain VFR." I can't tell what it says, so I'm not saying it wasn't "maintain VFR."

I'll assume you are correct. There may be some pieces missing, including the clearance itself. A lot of these guys leave out things they think might not be interesting. Sometimes, of course, they are interesting. But either way, what we hear does not include an IFR route clearance. My WAG is, it was a VFR departure. We hear the initial contact with ATC. The clearance is missing. Then we hear an instruction to "climb and maintain..."
 
flyingron said:
That's not true. There are two times it's appropriate (at least)

The first is when you ask for a pop-up clearance, ATC can ask you if you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance and if you can, they will clear you IFR with a maintain VFR.

The second is when the pilot specifically asks for a VFR climb.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'll grant you the second one. In the first case, though, at least in my experience, the clearance is explicitly given as "upon reaching such-and-such altitude, cleared to...", so you are only required to maintain VFR until reaching the altitude where the clearance takes effect.

I can think of another exception that you didn't mention: VFR-on-top, where you have to maintain VFR and fly at a VFR altitude, yet also observe other IFR rules.

There could even be other isolated exceptions. But I think it's still true that generally speaking, you won''t be instructed to maintain VFR while you're operating on an IFR clearance, and if you hear that, it should be a red flag that the controller is likely considering you not to be IFR, at least at that moment.
 
Okay I listened to the part the OP transcribed, and frankly I didn't clearly hear much on the controller's side. He said maintain something, but I'm not sure it was VFR. And there were quite a few words after "Radar contact 2 miles NE" that may or may not have started with "Indy Executive". I also can't verify that he said "proceed direct SNEVA" as opposed to "cleared direct SNEVA". If it was the latter, then that was the clearance limit and he was given an altitude to climb and maintain, so pretty standard for an airborne pickup, though the pilot's readback "okay 13,000 we're direct SNEVA" tends to weigh against that reading.

Really not enough clarity on the ATC side to decide for sure. Most likely as Mark (and I) said, VFR departure, airborne pickup, clearance edited out.
 
flyingron said:
That's not true. There are two times it's appropriate (at least)
Click to expand...

You should never be told to maintain VFR when operating IFR.

The first is when you ask for a pop-up clearance, ATC can ask you if you can maintain terrain and obstacle clearance and if you can, they will clear you IFR with a maintain VFR.
Click to expand...

ATC may ask a pilot requesting an IFR popup while operating below the MIA, "are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and [MIA] feet?” If the pilot responds affirmative, the controller should issue the IFR clearance with no mention of VFR. If the pilot responds negative, the controller is to instruct the pilot to maintain VFR and to state intentions.

The second is when the pilot specifically asks for a VFR climb.
Click to expand...

A pilot operating IFR who requests a VFR climb or descent should be told to maintain VFR conditions between the specified altitudes.
 
azure said:
Okay, I'll grant you the second one. In the first case, though, at least in my experience, the clearance is explicitly given as "upon reaching such-and-such altitude, cleared to...", so you are only required to maintain VFR until reaching the altitude where the clearance takes effect.
Click to expand...

In my experience, pilots request IFR popups because they don't think they'll be able to continue under VFR.

I can think of another exception that you didn't mention: VFR-on-top, where you have to maintain VFR and fly at a VFR altitude, yet also observe other IFR rules.
Click to expand...

But you shouldn't be told to "maintain VFR" in that case, the phraseology is "maintain VFR-on-top".
 
azure said:
In which case the answer to the question should probably be "negative".
Click to expand...

That's a personal choice but if you feel you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance while IMC, nothing wrong with replying in the affirmative. The controller is completely legal in issuing the clearance below the MIA / MVA while you're IMC as well. Those that don't issue the clearance and have the aircraft maintain VFR until reaching the MVA / MIA, don't understand the order.
 
azure said:
Okay, I'll grant you the second one. In the first case, though, at least in my experience, the clearance is explicitly given as "upon reaching such-and-such altitude, cleared to...", so you are only required to maintain VFR until reaching the altitude where the clearance takes effect.
Click to expand...
On the first case:

"Upon reaching controlled airspace" simply refers to the regulatory fact that ATC has no authority in uncontrolled airspace. So your clearance cannot become effective until reaching controlled airspace. But it does not require you to maintain VFR until then. IFR is legal in uncontrolled airspace. Discussions on the subject usually talk about sustained flights, but a very common IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance is the IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport.

A clearance with "maintain own terrain separation" doesn't automatically require you to maintain VFR either. Just a safety alert that the pilot agrees to be responsible for terrain and abstraction clearance as a condition of receiving the clearance. But there's no reason ATC can't include it, although I have not heard it (I have heard, "maintain VFR" before getting my IFR clearance, but not as part of or after one).

Edit: @Velocity173's response came while I was doing mine. I agree with him.
 
Velocity173 said:
That's a personal choice but if you feel you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance while IMC, nothing wrong with replying in the affirmative. The controller is completely legal in issuing the clearance below the MIA / MVA while you're IMC as well. Those that don't issue the clearance and have the aircraft maintain VFR until reaching the MVA / MIA, don't understand the order.
Click to expand...
Agreed on the first point. The point was, the controller MIGHT tell you to maintain VFR before the clearance takes effect, which is what I think F'Ron was alluding to with his exception.

However, it seems to be common out here to refuse to issue a clearance when doing an airborne pickup until the aircraft has reached the MIA. It is hard even to get an "upon reaching" clearance. I've posted about my frustrations in dealing with ZBW on this before. I don't know whether this is just center policy for whatever reason, or whether the controllers really don't understand the order.
 
azure said:
Agreed on the first point. The point was, the controller MIGHT tell you to maintain VFR before the clearance takes effect, which is what I think F'Ron was alluding to with his exception.
Click to expand...

Wasted words, as there is no other option.

However, it seems to be common out here to refuse to issue a clearance when doing an airborne pickup until the aircraft has reached the MIA. It is hard even to get an "upon reaching" clearance. I've posted about my frustrations in dealing with ZBW on this before. I don't know whether this is just center policy for whatever reason, or whether the controllers really don't understand the order.
Click to expand...

It is inconsistent with the ATC order.
 
roncachamp said:
Why?
Click to expand...
Because if you can't see the terrain/obstacles you intend to avoid, you probably shouldn't say that you can avoid them. I say "probably" because you might have other navigational means to avoid them. I can think of a number of situations out here where I would certainly not answer yes.
 
azure said:
Because if you can't see the terrain/obstacles you intend to avoid, you probably shouldn't say that you can avoid them. I say "probably" because you might have other navigational means to avoid them. I can think of a number of situations out here where I would certainly not answer yes.
Click to expand...
Of course. In the clouds or out:

If you cannot maintain your own terrain avoidance you say, "no." If you can maintain your own terrain avoidance, you say "yes." If you can maintain your own terrain separation but need to maneuver a bit (like head in the opposite direction or circle above the airport) you say "yes" and let ATC know what you plan so you are both on the same page in terms of expectations.
 
midlifeflyer said:
On the first case:

"Upon reaching controlled airspace" simply refers to the regulatory fact that ATC has no authority in uncontrolled airspace. So your clearance cannot become effective until reaching controlled airspace. But it does not require you to maintain VFR until then. IFR is legal in uncontrolled airspace. Discussions on the subject usually talk about sustained flights, but a very common IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance is the IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport.
Click to expand...
I was not referring to "upon reaching controlled airspace". Those clearances (again in my experience) are usually given on the ground, and they're effective immediately; legally, you could take off into 0/0 conditions in a surface area. I was referring to "upon reaching" a specified altitude that is usually the MIA, and may be well above the floor of controlled airspace. Out here the MIA is around 5400 feet. If I get a clearance like that, I am required to maintain VFR until reaching 5400 feet. I should say that they ONLY time I might get such a clearance is doing an airborne pickup (or possibly a pop-up, which I haven't tried). For that reason, if I'm going IFR and the bases are below 6000 feet or so, I always pick up my clearance on the ground.
A clearance with "maintain own terrain separation" doesn't automatically require you to maintain VFR either. Just a safety alert that the pilot agrees to be responsible for terrain and abstraction clearance as a condition of receiving the clearance. But there's no reason ATC can't include it, although I have not heard it (I have heard, "maintain VFR" before getting my IFR clearance, but not as part of or after one).
Click to expand...
I haven't heard "maintain VFR" as part of the clearance either. But I've heard it on the initial callup, and then been given an "upon reaching" clearance that only takes effect after a climb, that I think pretty clearly is required to be VFR.
 
azure said:
Because if you can't see the terrain/obstacles you intend to avoid, you probably shouldn't say that you can avoid them. I say "probably" because you might have other navigational means to avoid them. I can think of a number of situations out here where I would certainly not answer yes.
Click to expand...

Given that I'm requesting a popup because I don't think I'll be able to continue under VFR, and knowing that a "negative" response to that question will be followed by an instruction to maintain VFR, I can't think of any situation where I would not answer "yes".
 
azure said:
I was not referring to "upon reaching controlled airspace". Those clearances (again in my experience) are usually given on the ground, and they're effective immediately; legally, you could take off into 0/0 conditions in a surface area. I was referring to "upon reaching" a specified altitude that is usually the MIA, and may be well above the floor of controlled airspace.
Click to expand...
I take it, the "upon reaching" you are talking about sounds like, "upon reaching 6,000, cleared to the KDST airport..." rather than, "Cleared to the KDST airport. Upon reaching 6,000, fly..."
 
roncachamp said:
Given that I'm requesting a popup because I don't think I'll be able to continue under VFR, and knowing that a "negative" response to that question will be followed by an instruction to maintain VFR, I can't think of any situation where I would not answer "yes".
Click to expand...
I have been asked that question when doing an airborne pickup as well. I don't know what the order says about that situation, but in actual practice, it seems to apply to situations other than pop-ups.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I take it, the "upon reaching" you are talking about sounds like, "upon reaching 6,000, cleared to the KDST airport..." rather than, "Cleared to the KDST airport. Upon reaching 6,000, fly..."
Click to expand...
Correct. Sorry if that was unclear.
 
azure said:
Correct. Sorry if that was unclear.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The meaning definitely depends on both the wording and the airspace.

I can definitely see that with an airborne pickup.
 
azure said:
I have been asked that question when doing an airborne pickup as well. I don't know what the order says about that situation, but in actual practice, it seems to apply to situations other than pop-ups.
Click to expand...
i don't think it makes any difference. "Maintain own separation" is not a controlled vs uncontrolled or ground vs air issue. It's strictly, "I can't separate you from terrain. Can you get up to the MIA from where you are on your own nav without hitting something?"
 
azure said:
I have been asked that question when doing an airborne pickup as well. I don't know what the order says about that situation, but in actual practice, it seems to apply to situations other than pop-ups.
Click to expand...

See subparagraph 4-2-8.d. in Order JO 7110.65W Air Traffic Control. It seems to me it describes the popup situation precisely.
 
midlifeflyer said:
i don't think it makes any difference. "Maintain own separation" is not a controlled vs uncontrolled or ground vs air issue. It's strictly, "I can't separate you from terrain. Can you get up to the MIA from where you are on your own nav without hitting something?"
Click to expand...
That's what I've always assumed too.
roncachamp said:
See subparagraph 4-2-8.d. in Order JO 7110.65W Air Traffic Control. It seems to me it describes the popup situation precisely.
Click to expand...
The NOTE in 4-2-8.d.1 specifically applies to pop-ups, but the subparagraph starts out talking about "aircraft operating below the MIA" requesting an IFR clearance, which sounds like it could be an airborne pickup as well. I really can't tell the scope of that subparagraph without more information.

Anyway we are getting WAY off topic here. Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.
 
azure said:
The NOTE in 4-2-8.d.1 specifically applies to pop-ups, but the subparagraph starts out talking about "aircraft operating below the MIA" requesting an IFR clearance, which sounds like it could be an airborne pickup as well. I really can't tell the scope of that subparagraph without more information.
Click to expand...

How do you differentiate pop-ups from airborne pickups?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top