has anyone heard of a MOA collision?

Witmo said:
...Chances are, center will call you out to the military aircraft or they'll spot you visually and "knock it off" before their onboard radar provides warning of an conflict...
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[emphasis added]

Regarding the above, speaking as a taxpayer and as a beneficiary of our national defense, I'm concerned about disrupting their training flights, so I try to stay out of active MOAs.
 
tmyers said:
Collisions are an issue but most military aircraft have radar and know exactly where you are.
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That's a dangerous assumption. Many MOA's exist for training purposes for airplanes with no radar. (T-6, T-34, T-45, T-38, T-1)

In addition, most military airplanes (especially tactical jets) don't have any type of TCAS or traffic avoidance like civilian airplanes do.

Given an air to air radar, a crew can have decent SA as to traffic around them, but there are many limitations associated with radar, so don't assume that a military jet knows exactly where you are just because it is equipped with radar.
 
EdLarkin said:
Notice Mosby AHP inisde the AA? That's an Army Heliport at Camp Merrill (near Dalonega, GA). This is the home of the mountain phase of the Army's Ranger School.

Yup, rappelling and air assaults and infantry critters running thru the woods.....
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I don't know how that area got an Alert Area designation. Hardly anything goes on in there. I flew over it last night from AHN and saw one helo departing Mosby. A-211 around Ft Rucker, now that's an Alert Area.

When I'm flying around north GA, MTRs are way higher on my awareness priorities compared to 685. Even then, in recent years MTR activity has dropped significantly.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
While not specifically a MOA, I lost a very good friend in a mid-air in the warning area just east of San Clemente Island.
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CG C-130 v Cobra I'm guessing? That was a horrible one. I didn't know him personally, but one of the Cobra pilots was a regular participant over on airwarriors, so I guess I kind of "e-knew" him. As a side note, when VMFA(AW)-121 lost a jet a couple of years back in the w291, the delayed response time for the rescue helos was blamed on the fallout from the CG accident. Those poor guys spent around 4 hrs in the ice cold water that night, with basically every bone in their bodies broken. But FWIW, the NAOPA (where the C-130 and the Cobra collided) is pretty much the wild west. I nearly had a mid air with an S-3 one time out there.......and people would just go bananas over the NUC. I remember one evening, there were like 6 of us all out there trying to burn down gas to bounce back at Miramar, and at one point, we were literally all over that tiny island at various altitudes, with nobody seeing anyone else. Even with radar, it was scary at times.
 
zaitcev said:
Regarding radar and the like, worst nowadays is T-38. Its front profile is such that it's next to invisible and it hasn't got good equipment. But it is very fast (supersonic inside restricted areas sometimes).

As for being low, we live near so-called Melrose Range which has an unfortunate property of emitting low-level bombers. You can even have B-1 busting out of it at utility pole level. It's an area where ordnance release is authorized. It sits next to large MOA north of Rosevell. So all kinds of fast movers mill around the MOA forming up for the run. Then, they start their runs, dive into the restricted area, drop, and pop out on the other side, and we don't have any MOA on the other side!
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Been there done that!!
 
MarkZ said:
ATC provides radar surveillance in all SUA's (Special Use Airspace) where radar is the primary method of separation. ATC clears participating aircraft to operate in SUA's using standard IFR clearance phraseology.

When active, ATC will separate IFR aircraft from SUA's. VFR aircraft receiving FF get suggested headings to remain clear.
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VFR aircraft not on FF fly right through the MOA in the middle of a multimillion dollar Red Flag exercise with 70 plus aircraft getting a Knock it off call. Or disrupts a critical test developing new capabilities on an aircraft for the warfighter.
 
BillTIZ said:
VFR aircraft not on FF fly right through the MOA in the middle of a multimillion dollar Red Flag exercise with 70 plus aircraft getting a Knock it off call. Or disrupts a critical test developing new capabilities on an aircraft for the warfighter.
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FWIW the NTTR is an R area, at least the parts where most of the action goes down.......I'd guess it is the biggest restricted area anywhere actually....not that I disagree with your overall sentiments though
 
BillTIZ said:
VFR aircraft not on FF fly right through the MOA in the middle of a multimillion dollar Red Flag exercise with 70 plus aircraft getting a Knock it off call. Or disrupts a critical test developing new capabilities on an aircraft for the warfighter.
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That can happen. I was working three flights of four ship F-16's in an MOA a few years ago. A VFR FLIB trucked towards the airspace from the south to the north, 1200 code not talking to anyone. When the FLIB got within 3 NM of the MOA I advised the leaders of each flight about the intruder.

ATC: "SNAKE1, COLT1, and MACK1, VFR intruder entering XXX MOA from due south, altitude indicates 11,500."

SNAKE1: "Snake has spike. Colt, Mack, ready intercept."

COLT1: "Colt has left side."

MACK1: "Mack has right side."

SNAKE1: "Snake has bottom. Fight's on!"

Seeing 12 targets converge, and then diverge on one slow target was quite a sight. I can't imagine what the FLIB driver saw! 12 F-16's passing by at high speed. :hairraise:

NXXX: "Uhhh, center? This is NXXX. I have the feeling I'm in a spot I'm not supposed to be. Can you help?"

It took a bit of self control to not laugh as I radar identified him and vectored him out of the melee.
 
Avoiding MOAs here in Arkansas is about down right impossible. I have flown through them with/without FF and under IFR. I actually don't mind flying through the ones around here. About all you will find is low level C-130s and a few A-10s. However the A-10s are about to be disbanded here. We may actually get back some airspace because of the base shut down. It will make flying to NW AR a lot less of a headache. Occasionally we will get F-16s and trainers up from LA or MS. VERY rarely we will get a B-52. I haven't seen one in a few years.

The only areas I avoid are the two C-130 drop zones in Central AR. They are not mapped on the FAA sectionals. The AR Dept of Aeronautics sectional is the only place you will see them plotted. Its retarded to not have them as Alert areas or Restricted. Only one of them is located in a Restricted the other is in the middle of Class G. All I need is a cargo box flying into my window. :yikes:

I've had a few surprises by some C-130s and a pair of F-16s. Around here if you see one C-130 there is almost always several located near by. I have seen some sweet C-130 low level maneuvering over cities. Saw a pair of them split the Hot Springs Observation Tower. I would have loved to have seen that from the tower.

Had a pair of F-16s play with my student and I once in the Anne MOA. My student was freaking clean out. I had my camera out waving at them. :rofl: Later I learned that they recognized our aircraft and decided to say HI.

There're a lot of local military pilots that went through our flight school. So often one of us will get "played with" by an A-10, F-16, Black Hawk, etc...
 
BillTIZ said:
VFR aircraft not on FF fly right through the MOA in the middle of a multimillion dollar Red Flag exercise with 70 plus aircraft getting a Knock it off call. Or disrupts a critical test developing new capabilities on an aircraft for the warfighter.
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Hmmmm...

There is ALOT of restricted airspace reserved for the armed forced to play in... If there really is a "multimillion dollar red flad exercise" scheduled and they want their seclusion, then play their games in the restricted areas... IMHO..
 
MarkZ said:
That can happen. I was working three flights of four ship F-16's in an MOA a few years ago. A VFR FLIB trucked towards the airspace from the south to the north, 1200 code not talking to anyone. When the FLIB got within 3 NM of the MOA I advised the leaders of each flight about the intruder.

ATC: "SNAKE1, COLT1, and MACK1, VFR intruder entering XXX MOA from due south, altitude indicates 11,500."

SNAKE1: "Snake has spike. Colt, Mack, ready intercept."

COLT1: "Colt has left side."

MACK1: "Mack has right side."

SNAKE1: "Snake has bottom. Fight's on!"

Seeing 12 targets converge, and then diverge on one slow target was quite a sight. I can't imagine what the FLIB driver saw! 12 F-16's passing by at high speed. :hairraise:

NXXX: "Uhhh, center? This is NXXX. I have the feeling I'm in a spot I'm not supposed to be. Can you help?"

It took a bit of self control to not laugh as I radar identified him and vectored him out of the melee.
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I must be different then......

I see a flock of fast movers and get curious so I call center and ask..

" hey center, this in Nxxxx... Did I miss a TFR or a new restricted airspace ?

when center says ,, nope , just a friendly excercise"

I will say thanks,, I am changing freq and tell the good guys to have fun............ and thanks for the show...:D
 
I had two fighters converge on my C150 once, somewhere over SC and outside of an MOA.

One over the top, one below, then some kind of breakaway.

Could never decide if it was kind of cool or whether I should have been really upset.

Life goes on...
 
FastEddieB said:
I had two fighters converge on my C150 once, somewhere over SC and outside of an MOA.



One over the top, one below, then some kind of breakaway.



Could never decide if it was kind of cool or whether I should have been really upset.



Life goes on...
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I dang near got tossed in my 170 by wake turbulence from a pair of Hornets near El Centro....frustrating thing was I wasn't in a MOA, I was on a V airway!
 
Let me tell you, that would hurt!!!

Moa_mock_hunt.jpg
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm...

There is ALOT of restricted airspace reserved for the armed forced to play in... If there really is a "multimillion dollar red flad exercise" scheduled and they want their seclusion, then play their games in the restricted areas... IMHO..
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Which is what they typically do, as I mentioned a couple posts back. After all, the Nellis range is not only huge and restricted, but it has the mother of all restricted areas in the middle (or I guess it is probably prohibited or something). Even us mil folk can't fly into it, which is actually kind of a pain since it is right in the bottom middle of the part of the range they often use, and you can easily blow into it if you aren't paying attention. Which would be a really excellent ticket to being the non-flying duty officer for the rest of the det, as you can no longer use the airspace :)
 
hook_dupin said:
GA airplanes are slow and almost always below mil aircraft. Because of that, they can "hide" in a radar Doppler notch quite easy.
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Oh heavens no. I had a couple of F-15s pass below me near Wilmington, NC a couple of years ago. I was about 3,500 feet or so.

I was bracketed by a pair of C-130s from Dobbins a few weeks ago. I was about 2200 feet AGL, starting a 45 entry to the downwind at Cherokee County (KCNI, North of Atlanta) when they went by. One above and one below - about 500 feet or so (nice and close). I waved as they went by.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm...

There is ALOT of restricted airspace reserved for the armed forced to play in... If there really is a "multimillion dollar red flad exercise" scheduled and they want their seclusion, then play their games in the restricted areas... IMHO..
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Sounds great. Point one out that's big enough to effectively simulate a real world battlespace and we'll hop to it. Even the Nellis ranges aren't big enough when you add in the MOA's around the R's.
 
EvilEagle said:
Sounds great. Point one out that's big enough to effectively simulate a real world battlespace and we'll hop to it. Even the Nellis ranges aren't big enough when you add in the MOA's around the R's.
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Hmmm..

With all the sorties over in the sand box... You could convert that conflict into a huge training excercise.....

Never mind.............. It WAS a excercise..... with a failed outcome..:redface:
 
duc750sport said:
I came from SMQ so I was almost due North of AC. They had me fly right over there numbers (Runways) at 3000.. They specifically told me to stay clear of that area although right over the numbers is really really close.. From listening to the radio I could tell they were even telling anyone coming from the east to vector around it. I asked if any of the area was "hot" and was told " not at this time".
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Ok thanks. I planned COL RBV -> 17N which will take me west of McGuire. I've visited the AFB several times over the years, so it'll be nice to see it from above, but I'm staying well clear of the R.
If I'm lucky, I'll get to overfly the numbers like you.

By the way, there's a nice full scale replica of Maj. McGuire's P-38 at the entrance of the base. Really cool!
 
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There's a restricted area complex with a MOA on either side now.



N801BH said:
I kinda remember that...:idea:..

On my many trips from Miami to Apopka I went through the Avon Park MOA alot.. I didn't know it was called Lake Placid ? Unless it has appeared in the last 25 years.:dunno:
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There were a couple of deals off the east coast, 1997ish if I recall, where some military types were shadowing airliners without realizing that the TCAS would trigger resolution advisories in the passenger jet. If I remember correctly, there were a couple of incidents within a day or so, and so it made the news. It was something you would periodically hear about. Most of these were not IN MOAs, but proximate to them.

Part of the problem is (or at least was) that the mil drivers didn't/don't realize that A) the TCAS could "see" them (even from behind), b) TCAS doesn't "know" what they were doing, and only considers the aircraft as an intruder C) flight crews MUST follow an RA (no choice, even over an ATC clearance/vector). If you cause an RA, it's a angst filled event and really pretty un-amusing, especially when you're IFR.

There were also some angry words exchanged in a MOA when a fighter type chased down a couple of planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7W6OHbXeDM


Richman
 
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Richman67 said:
There were a couple of deals off the east coast, 1997ish if I recall, where some military types were shadowing airliners without realizing that the TCAS would trigger resolution advisories in the passenger jet. If I remember correctly, there were a couple of incidents within a day or so, and so it made the news. It was something you would periodically hear about. Most of these were not IN MOAs, but proximate to them.

Part of the problem is (or at least was) that the mil drivers didn't/don't realize that A) the TCAS could "see" them (even from behind), b) TCAS doesn't "know" what they were doing, and only considers the aircraft as an intruder C) flight crews MUST follow an RA (no choice, even over an ATC clearance/vector). If you cause an RA, it's a angst filled event and really pretty un-amusing, especially when you're IFR.

There were also some angry words exchanged in a MOA when a fighter type chased down a couple of planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7W6OHbXeDM


Richman
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I know it isn't a huge secret for us that we need to keep our climb rate under control outside of SUA to prevent TCAS problems for others. That and in busy airspace, it just isn't a smart way of doing business unless you want to bust an altitude clearance or something.

FWIW I'm not sure what the offending party(parties) in that video did, but if the description was accurate, that is the dumbest thing I have heard........talk about poor decision making if those guys were actually thumping commercial/civilian aircraft in US airspace......even in a MOA, that is just dumb, and asking for either trouble, or an accident. I've escorted civil jets in international waters, and even that, with a legal precedent, is sporty. I'd have no desire to do it just for fun.
 
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35 AoA said:
CG C-130 v Cobra I'm guessing? That was a horrible one. I didn't know him personally, but one of the Cobra pilots was a regular participant over on airwarriors, so I guess I kind of "e-knew" him. As a side note, when VMFA(AW)-121 lost a jet a couple of years back in the w291, the delayed response time for the rescue helos was blamed on the fallout from the CG accident. Those poor guys spent around 4 hrs in the ice cold water that night, with basically every bone in their bodies broken. But FWIW, the NAOPA (where the C-130 and the Cobra collided) is pretty much the wild west. I nearly had a mid air with an S-3 one time out there.......and people would just go bananas over the NUC. I remember one evening, there were like 6 of us all out there trying to burn down gas to bounce back at Miramar, and at one point, we were literally all over that tiny island at various altitudes, with nobody seeing anyone else. Even with radar, it was scary at times.
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Yeah it was a classic procedural/systemic failure. RCC Alameda was not talking to FACSFACSD, and FACSFACSD was not doing a very good job keeping track of 1705 as it entered and left W-291 on the SAR pattern. The Cobra that collided with 1705 had its anti collision lights turned off as is SOP for all elements other than lead in a formation. It was almost 1.5 miles away from the only lit helo in the formation. Tragic.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Yeah it was a classic procedural/systemic failure. RCC Alameda was not talking to FACSFACSD, and FACSFACSD was not doing a very good job keeping track of 1705 as it entered and left W-291 on the SAR pattern. The Cobra that collided with 1705 had its anti collision lights turned off as is SOP for all elements other than lead in a formation. It was almost 1.5 miles away from the only lit helo in the formation. Tragic.
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yeah, horrible, though thanks for the details....I had never heard the actual explanation of what happened, just that it was a midair.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm...

There is ALOT of restricted airspace reserved for the armed forced to play in... If there really is a "multimillion dollar red flad exercise" scheduled and they want their seclusion, then play their games in the restricted areas... IMHO..
Click to expand...

The restricted area is not big enough. The restricted area is only the "withdrawn land" for the bombing ranges. Marshaling the aircraft before "fights on" happens in the eastern MOA north of Nellis.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Yeah it was a classic procedural/systemic failure. RCC Alameda was not talking to FACSFACSD, and FACSFACSD was not doing a very good job keeping track of 1705 as it entered and left W-291 on the SAR pattern. The Cobra that collided with 1705 had its anti collision lights turned off as is SOP for all elements other than lead in a formation. It was almost 1.5 miles away from the only lit helo in the formation. Tragic.
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Did this happen at night?
 
35 AoA said:
FWIW the NTTR is an R area, at least the parts where most of the action goes down.......I'd guess it is the biggest restricted area anywhere actually....not that I disagree with your overall sentiments though
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1/2 of the NTTR is R area, the entire east side is MOA.
 
35 AoA said:
Which is what they typically do, as I mentioned a couple posts back. After all, the Nellis range is not only huge and restricted, but it has the mother of all restricted areas in the middle (or I guess it is probably prohibited or something). Even us mil folk can't fly into it, which is actually kind of a pain since it is right in the bottom middle of the part of the range they often use, and you can easily blow into it if you aren't paying attention. Which would be a really excellent ticket to being the non-flying duty officer for the rest of the det, as you can no longer use the airspace :)
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I was a Red Flag Air Ops Officer in a previous life. We called that airspace "Bus Ticket" because that was the joke on how you were going home. Actually saw it done once to an habitual offender.

Have flown the Red Flag airspace a lot myself. Was always great to take the Bone low between No Name peak and the north edge of the "don't go there" airspace. At least that way you knew your left flank was protected, no attackers from that side. But you can't maneuver left away from attackers on your right side.
 
BillTIZ said:
Have flown the Red Flag airspace a lot myself. Was always great to take the Bone low between No Name peak and the north edge of the "don't go there" airspace. At least that way you knew your left flank was protected, no attackers from that side. But you can't maneuver left away from attackers on your right side.
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I wasn't ever familiar enough with the landmarks to know by sight when I was about to blow into it. So really, I was just trying to survive.....junior wingman, flying in the midst of a couple divisions, flanked by some raptors, all of whom had much better SA than I. Most of my attention on those flights was paid to not hitting any of the 30+ other jets out there, and not flying into the box (or should I say the "container?)

Awesome awesome experience though.......and pretty eye opening how much more efficiently, IMHO, the light grey AF types do air to air, AWACS control included.
 
I don't begrudge the mil drivers their room to play. They HAVE to have somewhere to go get their stuff done.

That said, in some locations, the size, number and locations of MOAs is really pretty obnoxious. In Florida, they practically bisect the entire state. Throw in the TPA/MCO class B areas, and IF you want people to stay out of the MOAs, you wind up funneling traffic through two VERY narrow corridors.

The Lake Placid/Avon/Marion MOAs plus R-2901 really mess up the middle of the state. They butt right up against the above mentioned Class B areas. There really isn't anywhere for VFR traffic to go, other than up the I-75 or I-95 corridors. There's only 10 NM between the two 30nm MCO/TPA class B rings, and about 26nm between the lateral confines. The Palatka MOA/R areas do the same thing on the north side.

The east side of MCO just stinks. You've got a TON of traffic squeezed into a TINY corridor between the class B and the variety of restricted areas over the Cape.

The end result is that for 155 NM, the only way to avoid MOAs/R areas in trying to cross E/W in Florida is to fly in/or around MCOs B space, the lateral limits of which butt right up against the MOAs/R space.

Not an optimum solution, by any stretch. Sure, the claim is that "its not active all the time", but Murphy says it WILL be active when you are flying, and times two if you need to deviate for weather (and everyone knows, we never get TRWs in FL).

Sorry for the rant. This is a sore spot. I want everyone to have their space and play nice, but to jump on guys for crossing through MOAs when there is really no good way to avoid them strikes a nerve.

Richman
 
Richman67 said:
I don't begrudge the mil drivers their room to play. They HAVE to have somewhere to go get their stuff done.

That said, in some locations, the size, number and locations of MOAs is really pretty obnoxious. In Florida, they practically bisect the entire state. Throw in the TPA/MCO class B areas, and IF you want people to stay out of the MOAs, you wind up funneling traffic through two VERY narrow corridors.

The Lake Placid/Avon/Marion MOAs plus R-2901 really mess up the middle of the state. They butt right up against the above mentioned Class B areas. There really isn't anywhere for VFR traffic to go, other than up the I-75 or I-95 corridors. There's only 10 NM between the two 30nm MCO/TPA class B rings, and about 26nm between the lateral confines. The Palatka MOA/R areas do the same thing on the north side.

The east side of MCO just stinks. You've got a TON of traffic squeezed into a TINY corridor between the class B and the variety of restricted areas over the Cape.

The end result is that for 155 NM, the only way to avoid MOAs/R areas in trying to cross E/W in Florida is to fly in/or around MCOs B space, the lateral limits of which butt right up against the MOAs/R space.

Not an optimum solution, by any stretch. Sure, the claim is that "its not active all the time", but Murphy says it WILL be active when you are flying, and times two if you need to deviate for weather (and everyone knows, we never get TRWs in FL).

Sorry for the rant. This is a sore spot. I want everyone to have their space and play nice, but to jump on guys for crossing through MOAs when there is really no good way to avoid them strikes a nerve.

Richman
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I agree in FL SUA is everywhere. You can find yourself deviating around it and then end up heading into an active DZ. Still, there's nothing preventing a VFR from exercising their right to fly through. Also while MOAs appear to be hot a lot, there are plenty of times where nothing really is going on during those active times. These days their hours have been cut so there isn't much going on in SUAs. I know in my backyard MTR activity has dropped big time. When they do get to do the training it is necessary. Can't do everything out over the water.

Your example of the F-16s thumping the aircraft in the MOA isn't something that occurs frequently. I worked MOA control for 4 yrs and never once saw an attack/fighter aircraft harass a VFR in the airspace. I'm sure the pilots in question where disciplined accordingly.
 
Richman67 said:
I don't begrudge the mil drivers their room to play. They HAVE to have somewhere to go get their stuff done.

That said, in some locations, the size, number and locations of MOAs is really pretty obnoxious. In Florida, they practically bisect the entire state. Throw in the TPA/MCO class B areas, and IF you want people to stay out of the MOAs, you wind up funneling traffic through two VERY narrow corridors.

The Lake Placid/Avon/Marion MOAs plus R-2901 really mess up the middle of the state. They butt right up against the above mentioned Class B areas. There really isn't anywhere for VFR traffic to go, other than up the I-75 or I-95 corridors. There's only 10 NM between the two 30nm MCO/TPA class B rings, and about 26nm between the lateral confines. The Palatka MOA/R areas do the same thing on the north side.

The east side of MCO just stinks. You've got a TON of traffic squeezed into a TINY corridor between the class B and the variety of restricted areas over the Cape.

The end result is that for 155 NM, the only way to avoid MOAs/R areas in trying to cross E/W in Florida is to fly in/or around MCOs B space, the lateral limits of which butt right up against the MOAs/R space.

Not an optimum solution, by any stretch. Sure, the claim is that "its not active all the time", but Murphy says it WILL be active when you are flying, and times two if you need to deviate for weather (and everyone knows, we never get TRWs in FL).

Sorry for the rant. This is a sore spot. I want everyone to have their space and play nice, but to jump on guys for crossing through MOAs when there is really no good way to avoid them strikes a nerve.

Richman
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That's all fair. I've personally got no issue with people simply flying, responsibly, through an inactive or an active MOA. Talk to people, figure out where is safe and where isn't, and we can all co-exist just fine......you know, the professional pilot stuff I'm willing to bet anyone on POA is already doing. So we are probably preaching to the choir.

If I recall correctly, and I was flying there just last month, the Pinecastle and Avon ranges are mostly contained in the R areas. We didn't even go into the MOA's around Avon when we were there, and I think the biggest risk of finding someone we didn't expect would have been bombing Lake George, where we were low and fast, and seemingly in the midst of a lot of civilian life. No issues....in those scenarios, trust me, we are looking outside, using the radar to find non-participants, and generally will see you. It's the MOA's attached to much larger restricted areas, where we do large force events with a million jets, and those events become so complex and dynamic that there just isn't much time to also look for guys you don't expect. Hope that clears up any confusion any of the previous posts may have caused. I've said it before, but I will say it again.....I've never been angry at someone legally transiting SUA, and I really don't know anyone who ever has been around me either. I think we can all appreciate the fact that we need to share the airspace, though I do think that sometimes the mere existence of such large areas of SUA might rub folks the wrong way and make it seem as if we want to just take our ball and go home with it and not share, so to speak. Man....that was a run on sentence if I ever wrote one!
 
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