has anyone heard of a MOA collision?

35 AoA said:
Well, no better time than the present to make your proposal. Like I mentioned before, we will positively activate a MOA prior to using it, which around here is normally with either Wash Center, or FACSFAC, who is in direct comms with Center. So they do know real time if there is someone in it......they need to know so that they can route IFR traffic properly. We activate it for this purpose, as well as to prevent a violation of 91.303.

The point you got across was that you are upset about the existence of MOA's, and have some pretty inaccurate views of the way that we see the issue on the military side. You've repeatedly taken our comments well out of context, adding meaning that wasn't there. I honestly think we have been nearly in agreement this entire time, had you not been so busy trying to convince yourself that we were not.....I don't know how much more clearly I can say "we all share MOAs, please help us share them safely. It is everyone's responsibility to know who is out there, and how to avoid one another". Do you have any issue with those statements?
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No Issues at all..... Sometimes I express myself differently then most be we are in total agreement...

My main beef is when the military spreads SUA's in such a way as to create a quilt of navigation hurdles to GA drivers.... I learned to Fly in Central Fla 35 years ago.. it was problematic back then,,, it sounds like a nightmare down there now...:eek:..

Don't get me wrong.. I am HUGE fan of fast movers , in fact I try to schedule some of my flights close to the local IR499 route... I bet I got to see a B-1 zip past at least 10 times last year.... Nothing like sittin on my own private runway (2WY3) watching and listening to the sound of freedom..:yes::wink2::)
 
MarkZ said:
How is your proposed system more efficient (both fiscally and operationally) than the current system of checking a NOTAM and consequently calling the controlling facility?
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I think another poster addressed that earlier.... In the Fla area, Jax and Miami center are the agencies and getting a word in edgewise is an act in futility.... Ground inquired NOTAMS are made before the flight to FSS and alot can change during the course of a 4 hour VFR flight down through the center of Fla....

Just a couple of weeks ago we left TMB ,filed for FL450... We just want to get the hell out of every ones way and level off where the Williams motors love it... I bet we got stepped on 15 times before we got to LAL..:mad:
 
N801BH said:
I think another poster addressed that earlier.... In the Fla area, Jax and Miami center are the agencies and getting a word in edgewise is an act in futility.... Ground inquired NOTAMS are made before the flight to FSS and alot can change during the course of a 4 hour VFR flight down through the center of Fla....

Just a couple of weeks ago we left TMB ,filed for FL450... We just want to get the hell out of every ones way and level off where the Williams motors love it... I bet we got stepped on 15 times before we got to LAL..:mad:
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Good point. My experience comes only from the facility I worked. My new facility has no SUA's. :D

That being said, what you propose has huge up-front installation costs if implemented nationwide. To say nothing of the maintenance costs (both operational and technical) associated with each piece of equipment. The FAA is currently decommissioning many navigational facilities, I don't know how likely they would install new facilities.
 
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N801BH said:
And the pushback continues......:mad2::mad2:..

The topic here is MOA's....

WE can fly through them whether they are hot or cold.. It AIN'T your private airspace..:no:... It belongs to the taxpayers, ya know, the same people who own the jets /planes/ heli's you get to play with... Oh yeah, don't forget... we are buying your fuel too..;):idea:
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If you're buying the fuel, why would you want to waste it by interrupting a training exercise?

As a taxpayer and a citizen, I've come to the conclusion that I prefer to avoid doing that, because it wastes my tax dollars, and because having a well trained military is to my benefit.

I've also noticed that staying out of active MOAs does not necessarily mean staying outside their lateral limits. In most cases, it's not hard to stay below them.
 
N801BH said:
My main beef is when the military spreads SUA's in such a way as to create a quilt of navigation hurdles to GA drivers.... I learned to Fly in Central Fla 35 years ago.. it was problematic back then,,, it sounds like a nightmare down there now...:eek:..
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I hear you. There are certainly plenty of areas like (basically all of) FL, where avoiding is never practical. Any of the advice I have given in this thread is solely based on what my mindset would be, personally, while transiting a MOA in a GA aircraft given my experience as the "other guy" out there. It is any certified pilot's right, and privilege to transit a MOA, without talking or squawking (altitude dependent obviously), so my intent wasn't to say otherwise. Just my take on what the most prudent means of doing so would be. Guys do it all the time the other way, and somehow we don't have midairs, so obviously the best method is open to interpretation. That being said, if you do talk to someone and announce your intentions, it sure goes a long way towards helping us help you get through safely and without some scary close pass that neither of us were expecting. If you ever experienced an example of a military aircraft threatening a GA aircraft in a MOA, either to prove a point, or just to have fun, I would highly encourage you to report it real time and make sure it gets documented and forwarded to the appropriate authorities. That isn't cool, and while I have never personally seen or heard of it happening, if it is, it absolutely shouldn't be.
 
Alright, I'm gonna break this down to the simplist means possible:

1. MOAs and other SUAs are critical for military pilot training. You can't expect guys like Evil and 35 to do BFM in a sim and expect them to get any real benefit out of it. They also need to be able to get out and drop/shoot live ordnance. Anyone with common sense would realize that those types of activities should be contained in areas from non participants.

2. MOAs are NOTAM'd 24 hours in advance. If the weather is forcasted to be below mins then the NOTAM isn't issued. We did this several times at NBC. When you have an excercise as large as "Hornets Nest" every 6 months they want to notifiy participants well in advance of go/no go.

3. When the NOTAM is issued, I'd say it's 90 % accurate for the actual times. Don't confuse that with ATO scheduled times. That's crazy inaccurate. The closing time isn't going to be hours different from the NOTAM either. It's more like 10-15 mins different.

4. When a part of or the entire MOA closes early (cold), controllers will immediately reroute aircraft under their control. They will also relay that info up the line to reroute proposed overflights. Example:
"Charleston-Beaufort sixty eight."
"Go ahead."
"All Beaufort Mowahs cold, you wanna ask N12345 if he wants Victor one Brunswick?"
"Wildo, CC...AR"

This is immediate coordination that's far more efficient than any attempt for a controller to cut some sort of ATIS on MOA status.

5. The whole not getting a word in edgewise doesn't fly. Takes a couple secs to get a MOA update from the controller. Also, if it's so busy that you can't ask the controller the current MOA status, then how are you going to get a word for a change of route because of some MOA status you heard in a recording?

6. Just because there are no aircraft actively in the MOA doesn't mean the controller is going to release it for IFR transitions. Depends on facility memos covering those procedures and controller judgement as to how they can get the non participant through without affecting the military guys. As Tim said earlier, it's "dynamic."

7. The FAA barely has enough money to keep it's facilities manned right now. At my brother's facility they sometimes have to deny ASR approaches because of manning issues. Trying to get money to setup a MOA recording and having a controller that has time to update said recording might be problematic.

I've never had a problem flying through MOAs VFR. If I hear "I'm not going to work you through it because of multiple targets I'm not talking to," then I'm going around. If I hear "MOAs are hot but currently no aircraft in it," then I'm trucking on through. It's a personal choice. Until we get all aircraft setup with ADS-B in/out you're not going to truly have a good picture of what's going on around you. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
 
Velocity173 said:
Alright, I'm gonna break this down to the simplist means possible:

1. MOAs and other SUAs are critical for military pilot training. You can't expect guys like Evil and 35 to do BFM in a sim and expect them to get any real benefit out of it. They also need to be able to get out and drop/shoot live ordnance. Anyone with common sense would realize that those types of activities should be contained in areas from non participants.

2. MOAs are NOTAM'd 24 hours in advance. If the weather is forcasted to be below mins then the NOTAM isn't issued. We did this several times at NBC. When you have an excercise as large as "Hornets Nest" every 6 months they want to notifiy participants well in advance of go/no go.

3. When the NOTAM is issued, I'd say it's 90 % accurate for the actual times. Don't confuse that with ATO scheduled times. That's crazy inaccurate. The closing time isn't going to be hours different from the NOTAM either. It's more like 10-15 mins different.

4. When a part of or the entire MOA closes early (cold), controllers will immediately reroute aircraft under their control. They will also relay that info up the line to reroute proposed overflights. Example:
"Charleston-Beaufort sixty eight."
"Go ahead."
"All Beaufort Mowahs cold, you wanna ask N12345 if he wants Victor one Brunswick?"
"Wildo, CC...AR"

This is immediate coordination that's far more efficient than any attempt for a controller to cut some sort of ATIS on MOA status.

5. The whole not getting a word in edgewise doesn't fly. Takes a couple secs to get a MOA update from the controller. Also, if it's so busy that you can't ask the controller the current MOA status, then how are you going to get a word for a change of route because of some MOA status you heard in a recording?

6. Just because there are no aircraft actively in the MOA doesn't mean the controller is going to release it for IFR transitions. Depends on facility memos covering those procedures and controller judgement as to how they can get the non participant through without affecting the military guys. As Tim said earlier, it's "dynamic."

7. The FAA barely has enough money to keep it's facilities manned right now. At my brother's facility they sometimes have to deny ASR approaches because of manning issues. Trying to get money to setup a MOA recording and having a controller that has time to update said recording might be problematic.

I've never had a problem flying through MOAs VFR. If I hear "I'm not going to work you through it because of multiple targets I'm not talking to," then I'm going around. If I hear "MOAs are hot but currently no aircraft in it," then I'm trucking on through. It's a personal choice. Until we get all aircraft setup with ADS-B in/out you're not going to truly have a good picture of what's going on around you. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Great feedback....:yes:...

To clarify... ALL my comments were for the VFR aircraft....

If ATC is working IFR traffic , and it is hot, then the shear fact is obvious.. You ain't going through...
 
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Velocity173 said:
Until we get all aircraft setup with ADS-B in/out you're not going to truly have a good picture of what's going on around you. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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And I would bet money that mil jets will be the very last to get that, if at all.
 
I see what you guys mean about FL....

In the last 48 hours I flew from Nola to Crestview to Douglas, GA to Kissimmee, FL back to Crestview and back to Nola. VFR the whole way and went direct on every leg (other than a vector in class B). Oh the HUMANITY of the MOAs everywhere.
 
N801BH said:
At least I got that point across to you and Evil..;)..
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Couldn't agree with you less. Nothing 35 or I have said has changed through this entire conversation. We've said the same thing the whole time.
 
EvilEagle said:
I see what you guys mean about FL....

In the last 48 hours I flew from Nola to Crestview to Douglas, GA to Kissimmee, FL back to Crestview and back to Nola. VFR the whole way and went direct on every leg (other than a vector in class B). Oh the HUMANITY of the MOAs everywhere.
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why were you in Douglas, GA? I took my PPL checkride there, and it's a pretty remote place.
 
rbridges said:
why were you in Douglas, GA? I took my PPL checkride there, and it's a pretty remote place.
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Picked up some records for a Fouga jet that is being donated to the Warbird foundation I'm starting. It was a cool little field, got to climb around on an XP-82, B-25 and B-17.
 
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