has anyone heard of a MOA collision?

[rbridges]

I've always been told to watch out when flying through active MOAs which makes sense, but I've never heard of a collision b/t a military aircraft and a civilian plane passing through. Have you guys heard of any actual incidents?

 

[tmyers]

Collisions are an issue but most military aircraft have radar and know exactly where you are.

There was an upset accident in one of the KY MOA's back in the early 90's involving a local Dr in his Bonanza. Seems a B-52 had flown through the area about 5 minutes earlier and that he had inadvertently flown through the wake turbulence. No idea if it was ever confirmed or just a theory, but that is what was being explained at the time.

 

[rbridges]

I was just reading a thread where some guy wanted suggestions flying from SoCal to Boise. He was worried about flying through some of the MOAs, and it just got me thinking. Slow day I guess.

 

[docmirror]

There have been several mid-airs between mil and GA planes OUTSIDE of MOAs. There has never been a mid-air inside one. I checked a few years ago, and doubt there's been on since I did my survey.

 

[tmyers]

I always check with the briefer for times and then ask ATC if they are hot or cold. If I can easily skirt them I do. if it is a major reroute I fly through with flight following

 

[rbridges]

There have been several mid-airs between mil and GA planes OUTSIDE of MOAs. There has never been a mid-air inside one. I checked a few years ago, and doubt there's been on since I did my survey.

that's interesting. thanks.

 

[duc750sport]

I flew right over McGuires numbers (Runway) to Atlantic City this morning.. Had flight following. Actually had to wait to taxi because these five guy's were headed out.. Was pretty awesome!!

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[nauga]

LAX87FA213A: T-38 and Cessna 206 in 1987 near Tehachapi CA. I'm not aware of any others. VR routes, OTOH...

edit: The referenced report only says "within a MOA", not which one. Near Tehachapi probably puts it in the Isabella or Bakersfield MOA.

Nauga,
whose head is on a swivel

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Yes. Some years ago an airforce fighter collided with an airliner west of Baltimore. Killed lots of people. Lots of low level stuff around Chesapeake bay due to the guard at Martin and navy in putuxent. ( spelling)I've been at 2000 feet near Chesapeake city and had two A -10's go under me.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yes. Some years ago an airforce fighter collided with an airliner west of Baltimore. Killed lots of people.

What MOA is anywhere near Baltimore?

And are you referring to the 1949 P-38 vs EAL DC-4? Because I can't find anything else in that neck of the woods.

 

[roncachamp]

Yes. Some years ago an airforce fighter collided with an airliner west of Baltimore. Killed lots of people. Lots of low level stuff around Chesapeake bay due to the guard at Martin and navy in putuxent. ( spelling)I've been at 2000 feet near Chesapeake city and had two A -10's go under me.

How far west of Baltimore? How did an airliner comer to be in an active MOA?

 

[frfly172]

I have flown through a good amount of MOAs ,with flight following. Have seen some fighters up rather close. Going up and down the east coast,pretty difficult to stay out of moas,in the south.

 

[redtail]

I flew right over McGuires numbers (Runway) to Atlantic City this morning.. Had flight following. Actually had to wait to taxi because these five guy's were headed out.. Was pretty awesome!!

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Did they vector you through R5001 or around it? Just curious because I'll be flying through that area from Long Island soon. Heading to Cross Keys (17N).

 

[FastEddieB]

As an aside, my memory is a bit foggy, but...

...I bought my first Citabria from a dealer a West Palm Beach.

Apparently the owner had been killed in a crash of what I think was a Cessna 310 and a military plane over Lake Okeechobee. It had sat in probate for a couple years before I bought it.

I think that crash precipitated the Lake Placid MOA, now in place in S FL.

Anyone remember this incident?

 

[N801BH]

As an aside, my memory is a bit foggy, but...

...I bought my first Citabria from a dealer a West Palm Beach.

Apparently the owner had been killed in a crash of what I think was a Cessna 310 and a military plane over Lake Okeechobee. It had sat in probate for a couple years before I bought it.

I think that crash precipitated the Lake Placid MOA, now in place in S FL.

Anyone remember this incident?

I kinda remember that.....

On my many trips from Miami to Apopka I went through the Avon Park MOA alot.. I didn't know it was called Lake Placid ? Unless it has appeared in the last 25 years.

 

[weilke]

A baron got nailed by a F4 in a warning area off the coast of NC. But this happened during an intercept in IMC when he was heading up the coast from the Bahamas without a flight plan on file. He had just established radar contact with a civilian ATC facility when the F4 hit him.

 

[Neal Howard]

January 18, 2005 a T-37 Tweet collided with an Air Tractor just east of Frederick, OK inside an Alert Area that's inside a MOA. Technically the Sheppard 1 MOA's floor is above the collision altitude, and the Alert Area's ceiling is just below but for all intents and purposes the whole Alert Area A-561 imbedded inside Sheppard 1 ought to be considered "MOA" as well from surface to 10K MSL, and the MOA itself ought to be treated as if it's from 2500MSL to 10K MSL. None of the technical nitpicks matter for the poor guy who was flying the Air Tractor. He's dead. The lateral boundaries are all that really matter here, and the exact floors and ceilings of MOAs and AAs are mostly irrelevant in cases such as this. I fly around this area quite frequently, and have been for over a decade using those numbers to stay alive. I stay the heck away from KFDR whenever the air force trainers are out flying, but it's a really neat airport to practice landings at whenever the Sheppard training wing is inactive.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20050126X00109&ntsbno=CHI05FA055B&akey=2

 

[docmirror]

I stand corrected.

 

[Fearless Tower]

How far west of Baltimore? How did an airliner comer to be in an active MOA?

I think he is either confused or talking about the 1949 accident in DC. An airline midair with a military jet that killed lots of people would be pretty big news. Only ones I know of are the 1949 crash and then the Hughes AirWest DC-9 vs the F-4 in CA. Both had nothing to do with flight in a MOA.

 

[N747JB]

We were flying into Destin a few years ago and a student pilot was getting vectors. She either had her DG set wrong or she was a completely confused. The poor controller gave her 3 or 4 headings, apparently she followed none of them correctly. After what seemed like forever, maybe 3-4 minutes the controller finally told her, "Ma'am you are entering a live fire area and I can no longer be responsible for your safety, unless you turn North right now!" We were switched to unicom, and I never read about her in the paper, so I assume she turned north.

 

[JOhnH]

Collisions are an issue but most military aircraft have radar and know exactly where you are.

There was a thread on this board recently about flying through MOAs. One of our military guys said that even though they have great avionics, when they are pulling Gs and avoiding incoming, they are not going to be looking out or paying attention to us GA guys.
I can't personally vouch for that and I am too lazy (busy) to look up the thread now.

 

[35 AoA]

Collisions are an issue but most military aircraft have radar and know exactly where you are.
.

I'd argue this is certainly not always the case. Without getting into boring or potentially sensitive details about modern radars, suffice to say that there are modes of operation where you could very easily never gain radar awareness of non-participating traffic. Couple that with doing things tactically that take your attention away, necessarily, from using the air to air radar to see everything out there. That and a cessna or the like is very small and hard to see visually. We can and for the most part have, co-existed safely and peacefully, but my point is that folks shouldn't be under the impression that the mil guys always see them because of radar. It is still everyone's job to look outside and not hit anyone.

 

[Palmpilot]

We were flying into Destin a few years ago and a student pilot was getting vectors. She either had her DG set wrong or she was a completely confused. The poor controller gave her 3 or 4 headings, apparently she followed none of them correctly. After what seemed like forever, maybe 3-4 minutes the controller finally told her, "Ma'am you are entering a live fire area and I can no longer be responsible for your safety, unless you turn North right now!" We were switched to unicom, and I never read about her in the paper, so I assume she turned north.

Speaking of live fire areas, the former Fort Ord had a restricted area uncomfortably close to the Monterey Airport pattern. I was always real careful to avoid flying too wide a pattern there. I'll never forget departing there one night, and noticing red tracers behind and to my right after I left the vicinity. I was grateful that they waited, and I'm guessing that some pilots may not have been so careful about avoiding straying into the area. Or maybe the military just wanted to play it safe.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

This was a jet fighter. I thought it was near pautxent but may be mistaken. Lots of military action in this general area.

 

[weilke]

This was a jet fighter. I thought it was near pautxent but may be mistaken. Lots of military action in this general area.

There is no MOA associated with PAX. There is a complex or R-areas and they are pretty good about letting you traverse them if they are not using a particular corner at the time. But that means you are in radar contact and communication with them.

 

[cirrusmx]

I have never really worried about MOAs. Maybe I am unsafe. However,I always keep a close eye on Restricted, Prohibited, and Warning Areas (flight training) areas. I once encountered a warning area with live artillery going on. That would have been a nice thrill for your typical lawyer/doctor weekend pilot. 95% of my trips i file IFR anyways.

Also, I am pretty sure its more probable to have a mid air collision in a local training area than in an MOA.

 

[Perezhr]

A baron got nailed by a F4 in a warning area off the coast of NC. But this happened during an intercept in IMC when he was heading up the coast from the Bahamas without a flight plan on file. He had just established radar contact with a civilian ATC facility when the F4 hit him.

I remember this one because it was the topic of an article in one of the aviation magazines (Flying or Private a Pilot?)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[35 AoA]

I have never really worried about MOAs. Maybe I am unsafe. However,I always keep a close eye on Restricted, Prohibited, and Warning Areas (flight training) areas. I once encountered a warning area with live artillery going on. That would have been a nice thrill for your typical lawyer/doctor weekend pilot. 95% of my trips i file IFR anyways.

Also, I am pretty sure its more probable to have a mid air collision in a local training area than in an MOA.

You pay attention to them because unlike MOA's, you can get violated for entering them. Makes sense to me.....I'd feel the same way. I will say, for what it is worth, that similar stuff happens in a MOA, minus live fire events.

 

[BillTIZ]

Collisions are an issue but most military aircraft have radar and know exactly where you are.

not exactly!
Heavy aircraft do not have air to air radar to pick up the traffic.
Bombers and other heavy aircraft have ground mapping radars, does not work well on air to air.

A lot of MOAs may have radar operators monitoring the airspace and provide traffic information (not ATC) but some run autonomous.

 

[hook_dupin]

GA airplanes are slow and almost always below mil aircraft. Because of that, they can "hide" in a radar Doppler notch quite easy.

 

[Tom-D]

A few years ago, an EA6B doing the IR routes thru the Cascades hit a Ag-Cropper dusting a field that laid on the IR. the crew of the EA got out but it killed the ag-cropper.

the EA was less than 100' and about 400kts.

 

[FastEddieB]

GA airplanes are slow and almost always below mil aircraft. Because of that, they can "hide" in a radar Doppler notch quite easy.

For he most part, maybe.

But consider Alert Area-685 in N GA Near the HRS VOR.

Surface to 700' AGL.

I assume this has to do with training maybe rappelling out of choppers or some such.

Anyway, still best to never assume military aircraft can't be below you, no matter how low you are.

 

[duc750sport]

Did they vector you through R5001 or around it? Just curious because I'll be flying through that area from Long Island soon. Heading to Cross Keys (17N).

I came from SMQ so I was almost due North of AC. They had me fly right over there numbers (Runways) at 3000.. They specifically told me to stay clear of that area although right over the numbers is really really close.. From listening to the radio I could tell they were even telling anyone coming from the east to vector around it. I asked if any of the area was "hot" and was told " not at this time".

 

[EdLarkin]

Bu consider Alert Area-685 in N GA Near the HRS VOR.

Surface to 700' AGL.

I assume this has to do with training maybe rappelling out of choppers or some such.

Notice Mosby AHP inisde the AA? That's an Army Heliport at Camp Merrill (near Dalonega, GA). This is the home of the mountain phase of the Army's Ranger School.

Yup, rappelling and air assaults and infantry critters running thru the woods.....

 

[tmyers]

not exactly!
Heavy aircraft do not have air to air radar to pick up the traffic.
Bombers and other heavy aircraft have ground mapping radars, does not work well on air to air.

A lot of MOAs may have radar operators monitoring the airspace and provide traffic information (not ATC) but some run autonomous.

OK, after three naysayers;

My info is based on a conversation with an F-16 driver in the ANG, who told me he would see me long before I saw him. I agree that not all aircraft have this technology which is why I said "Most", and I agree that the workload can interfere with them seeing us, which is why I said "Collisions are an issue"

Now get back to work!!!!

 

[zaitcev]

Regarding radar and the like, worst nowadays is T-38. Its front profile is such that it's next to invisible and it hasn't got good equipment. But it is very fast (supersonic inside restricted areas sometimes).

As for being low, we live near so-called Melrose Range which has an unfortunate property of emitting low-level bombers. You can even have B-1 busting out of it at utility pole level. It's an area where ordnance release is authorized. It sits next to large MOA north of Rosevell. So all kinds of fast movers mill around the MOA forming up for the run. Then, they start their runs, dive into the restricted area, drop, and pop out on the other side, and we don't have any MOA on the other side!

 

[MarkZ]

not exactly!
Heavy aircraft do not have air to air radar to pick up the traffic.
Bombers and other heavy aircraft have ground mapping radars, does not work well on air to air.

A lot of MOAs may have radar operators monitoring the airspace and provide traffic information (not ATC) but some run autonomous.

ATC provides radar surveillance in all SUA's (Special Use Airspace) where radar is the primary method of separation. ATC clears participating aircraft to operate in SUA's using standard IFR clearance phraseology.

When active, ATC will separate IFR aircraft from SUA's. VFR aircraft receiving FF get suggested headings to remain clear.

 

[Witmo]

OK, after three naysayers;

My info is based on a conversation with an F-16 driver in the ANG, who told me he would see me long before I saw him. I agree that not all aircraft have this technology which is why I said "Most", and I agree that the workload can interfere with them seeing us, which is why I said "Collisions are an issue"

Now get back to work!!!!

There's a reason AWACs works with fighters to provide situational awareness in the battlefield. Depending on the particular radar and antenna, it might take a very long time for something as small as a fighter's radar to scan a huge volume of airspace and find civilian traffic transiting a MOA. I would not rely on a fighter using onboard radar being able to detect and avoid a civilian while conducting tactical training. Chances are, center will call you out to the military aircraft or they'll spot you visually and "knock it off" before their onboard radar provides warning of an conflict. Plus "most" USAF aircraft do not have air to air radar; many fighters do (not all) but "most" others do not. All USAF aircraft utilize MOAs for training, even tankers and trash haulers rely on Center or eyeballs for traffic call outs.

 

[MarkZ]

There's a reason AWACs works with fighters to provide situational awareness in the battlefield. Depending on the particular radar and antenna, it might take a very long time for something as small as a fighter's radar to scan a huge volume of airspace and find civilian traffic transiting a MOA. I would not rely on a fighter using onboard radar being able to detect and avoid a civilian while conducting tactical training. Chances are, center will call you out to the military aircraft or they'll spot you visually and "knock it off" before their onboard radar provides warning of an conflict. Plus "most" USAF aircraft do not have air to air radar; many fighters do (not all) but "most" others do not. All USAF aircraft utilize MOAs for training, even tankers and trash haulers and rely on Center or eyeballs for traffic call outs.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

While not specifically a MOA, I lost a very good friend in a mid-air in the warning area just east of San Clemente Island.