Has anybody installed the Garmin G5 HSI with GAD29B and GMU11?

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Baron62, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I am lookimg for reviews of this installation. How well does this set-up drive the legacy autopilot heading? My understang is that you can switch the G5 between heading bug and GPS steer when the unit is connected to an approved GPS navigator (430, 650, etc). Is a seperate GPSS/Heading bug indicator required or will the menu in the G5 be the only indicator?

    Thanks
     
  2. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  3. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have the G5 AI but am interested in your question so just replying to get updates to the thread.
     
  4. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    I’m going to, not so patiently waiting, been 8 weeks since I out the order in.
     
  5. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No intalls yet! I guess this explains why my avionics shops has not given me a quote for a GTN-650, GTX-345 and G5 HSI package yet. I think he is hesitant as he asesses the new G5.

    I would much rather have the G5 HSI than the seperate GPS CDI and GPSS DAC that was quoted for roughly $6-7K six months ago. I think the added PFD display and slaved compass is a big plus for roughly the same cost.
     
  6. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Me too. The G5 HSI appears to be a much cheaper solution.

    I am leaning toward installing one, but apparently there is a wait list just to get the thing. Everyone is out of stock.
     
  7. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I am having dual G5's, a 400W (GPS-only version of 430W) and FlightStream 210 installed in a couple weeks, coupled to my already-installed STEC 30. I will keep you guys posted.

    My shop has guaranteed that the 400W will fly coupled approaches with the STEC 30 and the G5 has built-in GPSS, even though I never bought that module for the STEC (which in hindsight saved me some cash).
     
  8. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Cleared for Takeoff

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    Please post some pics and your thoughts after you have a chance to fly with it for those of us interested in similar set-ups.
     
  9. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I now have a start date of 1/15 for a GTN-650, GTX-345 and G5 HSI package. I hope the G5 HSI Flight Instrument can be used in PFD mode in addition to HSI mode. The PFD mode looks more useful to me.
     
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  10. James Crane

    James Crane Filing Flight Plan

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    Just got back from flying as safety pilot in my buddy's aircraft (PA24). He just had a 650 installed with G5 HSI. You can use the G5 HSI in PFD(AI) mode, it was a very useful screen during approaches. He has no autopilot so I cannot comment on how that functions.

    As soon as I have some spare cash I'm going to install a dual G5 setup, it will drive my S-Tec 20.
     
  11. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Good to hear. The PFD looks like a mini EFIS.
     
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  12. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think that is possible on an experimental installation, but not on a certified, unless you have a dual G5 install. Then I believe the HSI instrument can act as a back up AI in an emergency. Someone please double check me on that. Just feel like I remember reading that somewhere.
     
  13. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No G5 love for me. Since the Beech 18 is over 6000 lbs, Garmin couldn’t put it on the list without additional testing....and apparently they have no intentions of pursuing it due to the small market.
     
  14. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If they don't get the AI working with the Century III, I'll probably have little love for it either. Too bad...I was HOT for these when they went certified and teased me with the HSI coupling to the CIII
     
  15. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

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    Yes, same for me on the King autopilot side, I'd love to remove my AI, but right now I'm in maybe G500/G500 Txi or Aspen land.
     
  16. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Reference: Garmin G5 Part 23 AML STC Electronic Flight Instrument Pilot's guide para 3.1 “The G5 has two main pages, the PFD page and the HSI page. When installed as an ADI, the G5 displays the PFD Page only. When installed as an HSI, the G5 displays the HSI Page primarily but can display the PFD page as a backup to the ADI.”

    I don't see where you need a dual G5 install.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
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  17. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Like I said...someone fact check me. I just thought I remembered reading that.
     
  18. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    ......but, another option, and one which I'm pursuing, is to move your vacuum driven AI to a backup position to drive your Century and the G5 in the six pack. Estimate of 6AMU , including a rebuilt AI.
     
  19. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

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    Personally, one of my reasons for this sort of install would be to rip out the entire vacuum system, pump, standby pump, hoses, etc. Sure I still need a backup AI of the batttery backed up electric flavor.
     
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  20. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Agree that would be ideal....nature and I abhor a vacuum....., and I was disappointed when I found my C IIb required AI input which the G5 can't/won't supply. Garmin missed a market segment there.
     
  21. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I will be retaining my existing AI as primary to feed my Century 21 AP attitude information. The G5 HSI will provide Heading bug or GPSS steering to the Century 21
    .
     
  22. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm still looking and have not found anywhere where it states that a dual G5 configuration is required to allow the G5 HSI to display the PFD mode.

    G5 Install manual states "The G5 can also replace existing vacuum driven DGs or existing HSI’s, either standalone or in combination with a G5 attitude display" also states "1.6.2.5 Backup Attitude Indicator function- All of the functions listed in 1.6.1 are also available by selecting the G5 HSI Menu via the knob and selecting PFD."
     
  23. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My guess is that Garmin will soon come out with a G5 AI configuration that provides attitude info to autopilots.
     
  24. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

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    I am pretty sure eliminating AP support of AI inputs save them a lot of time and money in certification process , it was a business decision, not a technical one. Would not be surprised if that came later.
     
  25. wrbix

    wrbix Cleared for Takeoff

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    Think that will be an update/upgrade to previously installed G5 AI's or require new hardware?
     
  26. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here is an email that I sent to Garmin a little while back:

    To whom it may concern:

    I have been following along with the quite successful year that Garmin has been having, and have been extremely impressed with the way that Garmin has listened to aircraft owners and pilots. As someone with an aging vacuum system, I have also been extremely interested in the G5 being certified for use in my Piper Lance; however, it was only a gimmick for me until the announcement giving the HSI version the capability to interface with my legacy Century autopilot. In my eyes this was a game changer as previously my only route to eliminate the unreliable vacuum system was to purchase the Aspen EFD1000 Pro. With the price point and easy of installation that the G5 was offering, I was blown away. Unfortunately, the HSI replacement would only solve half of my problem, as the Century III relies on input from the Attitude Indicator as well. In fact, after talking with many other owners, the vast majority of the aging Piper fleet incorporates a Century system of one flavor or another, as do many other aircraft types out there. Surely Garmin had this information in hand and knew that they were gaining the upper hand against a rival who (up until recently) saw little competition in the market for EFIS displays in general aviation aircraft, and surely a solution would be forthcoming that would allow compatibility for the G5 AI instrument and our Century systems. Imagine my disappointment this week then as I was listening to the webinar for "Low-cost ADS-B, Instruments & Avionics" when it was made very clear that those of us holding out hope for that solution should not expect it to occur anytime in the near future.

    My question to Garmin would be simply "Why?". Why would you go far enough to offer a solution to replace the Directional Gyro and a CDI in our aircraft that couples to the Century autopilot, but not press the advantage and offer a full solution to replace the entire vacuum system in our aircraft at a price point that would put Garmin as the #1 choice for the vast majority of us?? Clearly the technology is available as you offer adapters for the G500 line to a wide array of third-party autopilots, and the Aspen lineup is capable to interface via a similar adapter. I would say to you that if this option were to come available that Garmin would blow the doors off the market that many of us find ourselves in...our legacy autopilots are functioning just fine, we just want to find a dependable replacement for the vacuum system and eliminate it completely! Up until this week I was ready to pull the trigger on a dual installation of the G5 instrument with the hopes that the AI solution was on the horizon.

    Why go to the trouble of providing only half a solution (only to back off the other half) when you could prove once and for all that Garmin definitely IS addressing the needs, wants, & desires of the general aviation community. If it were technically possible, I think you would find that I am not alone. There have been many of us discussing it since Oshkosh when the HSI announcement was made. Like myself, they were equally disappointed with that news this week. If it is just not technically possible, I would ask that you just let us know that and let the chips fall where they may. At least then we wouldn't continue to hold out hope for a solution that would never come.

    In the meantime, I will continue to be a strong supporter of the array of other Garmin products currently in my aircraft. Thank you for your time.

    And here is the response that I received shortly thereafter:

    Hi Zachary,

    Firstly, I want to express my apologies for the delay in my response. Secondly, we greatly appreciate direct feedback such as your regarding the improvement of our product line. This is a concern that Garmin is fully aware of and we’re always working to make our product line the best it can be for the market it serves. At the moment, it is a certification issue with the FAA. Please rest assured that we are working to see how much capability we can get certified for these units, but as of right now, this is a limitation. If you have any other questions, or comments, feel free to let me know. Thank you and have a great day!

    Take all of this however you would like. I'm feeling a little burned by Garmin on other issues at the moment...
     
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  27. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

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    I suspect it's just somewhat Garmin not cannibalizing their G500 stuff, which does do the AI replacement and the usual time vs money tradeoff to add and certify the feature to the 'low end' devices.

    I have to say, the ability to drop in a G500 TXi and a GAD43e with being able to get a full Altitude Preselect and Vertical Speed Control on my King autopilot would be a very cool upgrade. Just not sure if it would be $20k cool(estimated, installation not included).

    Edit: Just realized, the GAD43e unit required is itself $5000 on the G500. If the GFC 500 gets certified for my plane it's only a couple thousand more and would integrate with the G5. Obviously a higher install cost for a new autopilot but probably a far cheaper solution then going all the way to a G500.

    Being able to dump all the King gear in my plane except the DME... Priceless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  28. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Another guess would be that Garmin would update the GAD-29B unit HW/SW to add the analog attitude output for the the autopilot. I wouldn't be surprised if it had provisions already. Based upon Yankee's communication with Garmin, it is a certification issue with the FAA.

    It is interesting that the FAA allows/trusts the G5 Attitude Indicator to be the primary attitude instrument, but not let the G5/GAD combo to provide the analog pitch and roll to the old autopilots.
     
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  29. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I am scheduled to do this end of Jan coupled with century 2000. Retaining vacuum AI ( and most likely DG too, moved to a diff place Just for backup since the vacuum pump is there)

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  30. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    See the other thread I just started about the 345. If... and only if... you want flight plans to sync from the GTN to tablets and back... you’ll want to (at least for now) add a Flightstream 210 to the mix.

    Just mentioning it because I was under the mistaken impression Garmin could use the GTX 345 Bluetooth as a “gateway” to the GTN.

    Not currently. Not a huge deal to me, but it might be something you want.

    Field approval?

    Probably start to see it around the time their AP becomes certified. That’d be my guess as to timing. Whether they’ll allow other manufacturer’s autopilots remains to be seen.
     
  31. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Scroll to the top right and click "Watch Thread." No reply necessary.

    I think it might be hardware. Talked with my avionics guy about the possibilities, and he seemed to think that it'd require the GAD43e, not the GAD29B.

    Yeah, I think for "stage two" of our upgrade we're going to get a quote to install a G500 TXi with the existing autopilot, as well as a quote to install a GFC500 should that become available to use with the G500 TXi. (NOT going to drop the coin for a GFC600, it's still way too expensive to justify for most any piston single.)

    Why a 210 instead of a 510?

    We got the 510 pretty much just to be able to do database updates wirelessly from the iPad. It is SO much better than the old ways...

    The 210 is great if you still have a GNS (430W/530W) but IMO for the GTNs the 510 is the way to go. Install is about as easy as it gets, too. ;)
     
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  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    That’s funny. I was just asking you the opposite question in another thread. It seems like there’s some reports of the 510 being a tad flakey vs the 210 being older and rock solid, but I think we, the co-owners of 79M, agreed we want to go 510 tonight on the phone.

    We want to see what our avionics guy’s reaction is, too. LOL. If he starts muttering and cursing loudly at the mention of either one, well... we might reconsider... Hahaha.

    I suspect with us calling up late to add it, he’s just going to say he’ll happily pop a 510 in the slot. Easy button. :) Kinda. Depending on what he has to change in settings anyway. And if he has to flash it, per that other thread...

    No dual AHRS though like with a 345 and a 210 combo though. Troy W was pointing that little gem out elsewhere. I can’t figure out why I would need more than one AHRS anyway, but you do end up with two with a 345 and a 210 combo. Ha.
     
  33. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It seems like Garmin is close to working out all of the bugs. The only remaining issue I have is that the radar picture in Foreflight does not populate while receiving FIS-B data. I get all other information. It works perfectly with Garmin Pilot...go figure. Just make sure you leave the shop with all of the latest software updates, and make sure that is part of the install package.
     
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  34. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks DenverPilot. I actually did order the flightream 210 as well. I like the idea of sending the flight plan. The 345 will bluetooth AHRS, traffic and weather, but no flight plan. I hemmed and hawed about adding the 210 at first because it is only adding flight plan transfer capabity if you have a 345 for $1AMU.
     
  35. BGF_Yankee

    BGF_Yankee Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I stand corrected...Garmin (and Foreflight both) have worked out all of the issues that we were having with the FS510. Everything works as it was advertised to me now and should for anyone else, as long as they have all latest updates as of today for both the FS510 and Foreflight App.
     
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  36. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

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    I tried to do a little digging on the GAD29b and the requirements for the KAP 150. It looks like the current version of the 29b simply doesn't have enough pins to feed both the HSI data and the attitude reference data. And not enough(read no) inputs for the KFC150 to be able to display the command bars for a flight director.

    So if Garmin does go this way it would probably have to be approving the GAD43e on the G5 or some other box to provide the necessary inputs and outputs.

    I did also briefly look at what it would take to make a converter box. If the G5 had ARINC outputs for pitch and roll it would be about $100 in parts($10,000 after FAA approval I'm sure) but the G5 doesn't presently output pitch and roll so you'd have to be on the CAN Bus probably(and then $20,000 after design and approval)

    Oh well, back to keeping my King Attitude indicator working for now.
     
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  37. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It turns out that you need software version 2.10 on the GTX 345 for attitude to get passed to the GTN (and thus the 510)... At least that's what Garmin says. I have yet to get that upgrade done.
     
  38. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    And I forgot to check that one thing you asked me to check on our flight home from the shop. LOL.

    I’ll let ya know by end of the weekend for sure.
     
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  39. Baron62

    Baron62 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Currently my Century 21 AP in NAV or Approach mode uses the KX-155 ILS/VOR CDI indicator to provide heading steering commands. Will the GTN-650 with the G5 HSI also provide ILS/VOR steering signals to the AP?
     
  40. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I have a Century III autopilot, already have a G5 ADI and GTN 650, and am planning the HSI in a couple of months, so this probably holds true for both of us:

    In the setup you describe, assuming a GAD29B is in play, the GTN650 can send GPSS directly to your AP if you leave the AP's mode select in "HDG" mode. If you switch it to NAV/etc., it'll work as usual, just using the steering guidance from the HSI instead of the KI-209 or 206 (I'm assuming you have one of those for your King CDI paired with the KX-155, which I also have.)

    I do not plan to let the autopilot "see" nav #2 (which is the KX-155 I mentioned), instead leaving that connected directly to my existing KX-155. I imagine one could install a switch to let the AP be driven by radio #2, but to me that seems unnecessarily complicated, and something I'd rarely use. If I lost the G5 or the GTN650, it's true I'd lose AP nav and approach capability, but it would still work in heading mode, which is plenty good enough for my purposes.

    At least that is my current thinking.