Happy Sport Pilot Mosaic Day
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flyingcheesehead
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I came here to say this. Congratulations to everyone who will be taking advantage of the new rules!
Half Fast
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Baked Potato
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Now? It's been like that for 20 years
arnath_av8
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I know we should be glad about SPL and MOSAIC.
However i'm not 100% sure how much overlap between SPL and PPL requirements are there - esp related to checkrides and written tests.
However i'm not 100% sure how much overlap between SPL and PPL requirements are there - esp related to checkrides and written tests.
N659HB
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Sure took long enough.
pfarber
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You give up the medical but now have a rats maze of restrictions to memorize and follow.
Also everything not VFR day basically needs an endorsement.
If you are so medically encumbered that you can't even pass 3rd class/basic med then I kinda think you shouldn't be put in high stress situations IMHO.
Also everything not VFR day basically needs an endorsement.
If you are so medically encumbered that you can't even pass 3rd class/basic med then I kinda think you shouldn't be put in high stress situations IMHO.
Dana
Final Approach
If you hold a SP certificate, yes, but not if you're a PP "exercising SP privileges".
OTOH, if you're healthy enough to safely fly and your doctor agrees but you don't care to go broke proving it to the FAA just so you can get a special issuance medical...
DaleB
Final Approach
Day VFR, only one passenger at a time, and not over 10K MSL pretty much covers it. It's just not that complicated. If you're a PP or above then you don't need any extra endorsements, and if you hold a SP certificate then you've already learned all of the privileges that come with it.
@Dana covered the rest.
pfarber
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Number of seats? Clean stall speed? Gross weight and probably a few more that I don't care to look up.
IIRC you can count the number or SPs on two hands and feet... and I don't think that people are gonna dump $200+/hr rental to putt putt around during the day and put up with other rental rules.
I listened to a podcast and some jabronie from the EAA was touting that the floodgates are gonna open and the (LOL this was hilarious) the dropout rate for pilots would go from 80% to 20% HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Money is not the issue for most students. GARBAGE CFIs are the issue. CFI hate CFIing but will rip off students to make 1500hrs.
What the EAA should have done spend the time convincing the FAA to allow certified AC to move into an new 'owner maintenance' class like thay have in Canada. Flight schools should be allowed to get off the 100 hour inspection nonsense and into a progressive MX program. CFIs should move into a their own specific class like mechanics and dispatchers are. Yes, the FAA medical system is trash, but it affects so few people.. and the SP thing is not gonna make 'Flying Great Again'.
MOSICA is a dud. Its a change that helps a very small minority, does NOTHING to correct the GARBAGE CFI system and does even less to lower the cost of GA.
tsts4
En-Route
FAA Certificate Stats for 2024:
CATEGORY | 2024 | |
| Pilot--Total | 848,770 | |
| Student 1/ | 345,495 | |
| Recreational (only) | 59 | |
| Sport (only) | 7,309 | |
| Airplane 2/ | ||
| Private | 172,012 | |
| Commercial | 109,727 | |
| Airline Transport | 179,194 | |
| Rotorcraft (only) 3/ | 13,429 | |
| Glider (only ) 4,5/ | 21,545 | |
| Pilot Total w/o Student Category 1/ | 503,275 | |
| Flight Instructor Certificates 6/ | 138,127 | |
| Instrument Ratings 6,7/ | 342,400 | |
| Remote Pilots 9/ | 427,598 | |
| Non Pilot--Total 8/ | 762,502 | |
| Mechanic 8/ | 337,855 | |
| Repairmen 8/ | 40,046 | |
| Parachute Rigger 8/ | 8,009 | |
| Ground Instructor 8/ | 81,282 | |
| Dispatcher 8/ | 26,516 | |
| Flight Navigator | 24 | |
| Flight Attendant | 246,402 | |
| Flight Engineer | 22,368 | |
| Note: The term airmen includes men and women certified as pilots, mechanics or other aviation technicians. | ||
| 1/ In July 2010, the FAA issued a rule that increased the duration of validity for student pilot certificates for pilots under the age of 40 from 36 to 60 months. | ||
| This resulted in the increase in active student pilots to 119,119 from 72,280 at the end of 2009. | ||
| Starting with April 2016, there is no expiration date on the new student pilot certificates, which generates a cumulative increase in the numbers. | ||
| 2/ Includes pilots with an airplane only certificate. Also includes those with an airplane and a helicopter and/or glider certificate. Prior to 1995, | ||
| these pilots were categorized as private, commercial, or airline transport, based on their airplane certificate. In 1995 and after, they are | ||
| categorized based on their highest certificate. For example, if a pilots holds a private airplane certificate and a commercial helicopter | ||
| certificate, prior 1995, the pilot would be categorized as private; 1995 and after as commercial. | ||
| 3/ See table 7 for the total number of pilots with a helicopter certificate. | ||
| 4/ See table 8 for the total number of pilots with a glider certificate. | ||
| 5/ Glider pilots are not required to have a medical examination. Beginning with 2002, glider pilots with another rating but no | ||
| current medical are counted as "Glider (only)." | ||
| 6/ Not included in total. | ||
| 7/ Special ratings shown on pilot certificates, do not indicate additional certificates. | ||
| 8/ Historically, numbers represented all certificates on record. No medical examination required. In 2016, Federal Regulation required that airmen | ||
| without a plastic certificate no longer considered active. Therefore, starting with 2016, those airmen with a paper certificate only were excluded. | ||
| Data for 1996 and 1997 are limited to certificates held by those under 70 years of age. | ||
| 9/ Remote pilot certification started in August 2016. These numbers are not included in the pilot totals. | ||
| N/Ap Not applicable. |
DaleB
Final Approach
You don't need to "memorize" most of those things. For the most part it's a one-time learning process if you're looking for something to buy, or if you're renting it's "Does this thing meet the cutoff for stall speed". Gross weight is no longer a factor. If you lack the capacity to figure something like that out, then I'd suggest you probably have no business flying to begin with.
The changes to Sport Pilot privileges in MOSAIC don't only affect SP certificate holders. I'm pretty sure you know this perfectly well and are simply trying to be argumentative and dismissive. There are an unknown but large number of Private, Commercial, and ATP pilots who are flying under SP rules. For every SP holder I personally know, I know at least half a dozen non-SP flying under SP rules for various reasons - and a couple more who aren't flying at all because there are no (pre-MOSAIC) LSA available for rent, and they're not buying an airplane for recreational flying. Those pilots can now rent the from the local FBOs at considerably less than $200 per hour.
Are you an EAA member? If not, you've really got no standing to complain about what they do or don't do. I was as skeptical as anyone about MOSAIC, and quite frankly the result exceeded my expectations by quite a wide margin. It's a big step in the right direction for Sport Pilot holders as well as the uncounted but substantial thousands of pilots who are flying with SP privileges. It also opens up the market for some really capable aircraft to be produced and sold at the under $500K mark.
You want an owner maintained option for type certificated airplanes? Maybe APOA should push that one. The "E" in EAA stands for Experimental. MOSAIC enabled non-builder owners to inspect their Experimental planes, which is another big win for E/AB owners.
Dana
Final Approach
Money is the reason most people don't even start learning to fly, so they never even become a student. And the relaxed requirements to become a SP CFI means you get people who want to instruct. People like me... looking at becoming a SP SFI as a retirement gig; I'm a PP with absolutely zero interest in getting an instrument rating or the requirements for aerial bus driving, but I think I would do pretty well (and enjoy) teaching a student who (like me) just wants to fly a Cub or other simple plane around on a nice day. And not leave when I hit 1500 hours, because I already have.
You'll change your tune on the day you have a medical condition that doesn't affect your ability to fly but requires an expensive SI.
If it affected a "small minority" then you wouldn't see so many people talking about and applauding it.
The one thing I do agree with you one is the maintenance rules, but that wasn't what MOSAIC was about. However, just like the good results of the original SP rule paved the way for MOSAIC, I think the relaxed rules for experimentals (allowing non builders to do inspections) will pave the way for changes to the rules for standard aircraft. Nothing happens quickly.
You need to get out more. Just because something doesn't interest or affect you personally doesn't mean it isn't important to many thousands of other people. You don't see us because we're busy flying out of little grass fields and other small airports far away from the commotion of the jet traffic at your home field.
pfarber
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Even now you still forgot about the seat limit and passenger limit. SO even though you had time to forumulate a correct answer your couldn't. See how easy it is not not correctly remember things? So be careful about mentioning lack of capacity... your boo boo is laughable and your comment is still wrong.
I don't think so. Or does large mean something special that would need a TTTIIINNNYYYY bit more explainin? MOSIAC is live for what 8 days? If you have a PPL under Basic med or Class 3 there is absolutely no reason to exercise SP privileges , nor is there any requirement to document anything out of the ordinary. So neither you nor the FAA will ever know if your statement is happening.
lol who cares? Arguments from a position of authority are always a losing battle. I never recalled being asked to vote if the EAA should spend my dues on an effort that doesn't do anything for me or the 99% of its membership.
This is just another made up statement. I've posted a bazillion times the stats regarding garbage CFIs, and why students drop out. SP isn't gonna significantly lower the cost of flying. And no, CFI's aren't gonna rush to get the SP endorsement as the pool of SP students has been laughably low. For students on a career track Its even more useless for career track students as PPL is a REQUIREMENT for IFR.
Does anyone really, honestly think that someone is gonna dump $10k into a SP ticket to pay $200+ an hour to putt putt around? Lets play make believe. A rental and CFI is $250/hr. Need MINIMUM 20 hours:$6200 + tests + supplies So let round that up to $7000 MINIMUM. Most likely you're gonna need 30-35 hours so a real real number is $8750 + tests + supplies so let round that to $9500. What yute is gonna dump $10k on a SP ticket for the privilidge of renting a $200/hr plane to fly VFR DAY?
Lets pretend the this lucky young pilot now wants to go career or Multi or IFR..... Gonna need that PPL. So lets add on MORE hours, MORE tests, MORE checkrides... wow... what savings!!!
Lets also agree that the average PPL flies LESS THAN 20-30 hours a year. Yes, some do more, some do less. But what has MOSIAC done to lower the $200 rental fee? Nothing is the correct answer. Airplane ownership is litterally a fraction of a fraction:
"Roughly 0.02% of the U.S. population — or about 1 in every 5,000 Americans — personally owns a piston-engine aircraft."
The FAA registry doens't tell you if its flyable or not, just that its registered... and with all the ramp queens sitting around that number of actual flying AC is gonna be lower.
So now, please tell me why I should be happy about this? The costs are still the same. SP flying ISN'T a hobby that yutes are gonna line up and dump $10k on when it doesn't even land you a job.
From a 2022 report currently less than 6% of airman are flying under a medical SI. Most common condition were cardiac and drug/alcohol issues.
"Estimate for current year
Given the data and if the FAA receives ~450,000 medical applications annually (as cited by an industry article). AOPA+1
- If ~0.5% are final denials → ~2,250 per year.
- If ~1% are initial denials → ~4,500 per year.
- Among these, the vast majority are resolved (special issuance or certificate granted) after providing additional information; only a small subset remains fully rejected."
- Denial rates for FAA medical certificates are very low — typically far less than 1% of total applications get a final denial.
- Many “denials” are actually deferrals pending additional documentation rather than outright final denials.
- A large portion of medical certificate reviews result in special issuance rather than outright rejection — meaning the applicant is allowed to fly under additional conditions rather than being barred entirely.
- For special-issuance cases: the number of denials is even smaller relative to total special-issuance applications.
- Much of the “denied” category stems from failure to provide requested information rather than a medical condition alone. Federal Register Public Inspection+1
Again, what did MOSAIC solve? Medical SIs are a thing. And it did nothing to reduce the cost, only the lowered the standards.
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Baked Potato
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*Sheepishly raises hand
DaleB
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i forgot nothing. My point, which I'm quite certain you understood perfectly well and simply choose to play dumb, is that Sport Pilot privileges are not at all difficult to understand or remember. Just because you choose to pretend that you can't quite wrap your brain around them doesn't mean that a person possessing at least average intelligence and comprehension, as we hope a pilot would, can't understand them perfectly well. They're actually easier to understand than before, since the limits on gross weight and maximum cruise speed have been removed.
MOSAIC has nothing to do with the fact that a lot of pilots are currently flying under Sport Pilot privileges, myself included, and have been for years. I have been for well over 10 years, and several others I know have been as well. No medical, no SI, no Basic Med. So yes, I actually do know it's happening.
What position of authority? I just wondered whether you had actually done anything to make your opinions known to EAA, as a member, or simply griped from the sidelines. It's obvious that enough EAA members were supportive of their efforts that they carried on working to get MOSAIC through. Plus, of course, the members of AOPA, NAFI, LAMA, GAMA, NBAA, and the FAA itself. Or should they all have stopped simply because YOU don't think it's important?
It's fortunate for a lot of us that the FAA doesn't care whatsoever about your opinions. Some of us either can't get or don't want to go through the time and expense of an SI. I'm in the former camp. You rant and whine about CFIs, I could go on ranting about the medical certification system... but I don't, because nobody wants to hear me whine and ***** about it. Regardless of what you choose to believe, there are a lot of pilots flying under SP privileges that would otherwise not be flying at all, and for them MOSAIC is a good thing.
At this point it's obvious to me that you're either incapable of understanding simple facts, or just arguing to be argumentative. I honestly care less about your opinion than EAA does, so I'm really not even sure why I bothered responding. Maybe it was so that someone who didn't know any better would know not to take you seriously, I don't know. Maybe I was just bored enough that I felt like wasting some time. Whatever the root cause, I'm finished. Feel free to whine and spout nonsense all you like. Have a fantastic day.
flyingcheesehead
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@pfarber I think you either have no idea what the new rules are, or you're one of those people who scoffed at the old sport pilot rules before you even knew what they were.
And yes, the old SP rules were far more limiting - The new rules mean that the 2/3 of recreational (and I mean usage, not certificate level) pilots that fly VFR only really have no reason to even bother with a Private Pilot cert.
And yes, the old SP rules were far more limiting - The new rules mean that the 2/3 of recreational (and I mean usage, not certificate level) pilots that fly VFR only really have no reason to even bother with a Private Pilot cert.
Albany Tom
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The thought that pops into my head is a saying I first heard in college. Cleaned up a bit, it's roughly "if a beautiful girl showed up at your house and took her top off, there's always one guy in the crowd that would complain about it."Happy Sport Pilot Day!
Dana
Final Approach
CFIs don't need an SP endorsement. Any CFI can instruct a student for SP.
Students on a career track likely won't bother with SP, true... but we're talking about students who have no desire to be on a career track.
An awful lot of people dumped $10k in a PP ticket just to putt around. I did (well, a lot less than $10k back then but about the same considering inflation). And, a 2 seat "putt putt around" aircraft rents for considerably less than "$200+".
That's because most pilots needing an SI don't even bother to apply for one; they either quit flying... or go SP. Like me: I could spend $10k on medically unnecessary tests to get that SI... or fly as SP, which covers 100% of the kind of flying I want to do. I'd have to be an idiot to spin the SI roulette wheel.
Again, because many people don't bother to apply if they know they'll have trouble, and/or they can't afford the unnecessary tests for the SI.
No, at least two would complain... @pfarber and @Clip4.
Half Fast
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CFIs don't need an SP endorsement. Any CFI can instruct a student for SP.
Students on a career track likely won't bother with SP, true... but we're talking about students who have no desire to be on a career track.
An awful lot of people dumped $10k in a PP ticket just to putt around. I did (well, a lot less than $10k back then but about the same considering inflation). And, a 2 seat "putt putt around" aircraft rents for considerably less than "$200+".
That's because most pilots needing an SI don't even bother to apply for one; they either quit flying... or go SP. Like me: I could spend $10k on medically unnecessary tests to get that SI... or fly as SP, which covers 100% of the kind of flying I want to do. I'd have to be an idiot to spin the SI roulette wheel.
Again, because many people don't bother to apply if they know they'll have trouble, and/or they can't afford the unnecessary tests for the SI.
No, at least two would complain... @pfarber and @Clip4.
pfarber
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Sorry to point this out but it obviously wasn't obvious because, well, the post history.
If you're gonna play by SP rules then you need to know them all (like PPL).
Nit picking aside no one has show that MOSIAC has done anything meaningful to lower the cost of flying. Sure, they reduced the minimum hours but rentals/garbage CFI's still cost the same and I'll say out loud that requiring LESS training for pilots is a dumb move that does NOTHING for career track aviators. Does anyone who remembers their student pilot training think that they would be ready for a checkride after 20 hours? Not solo, but a checkride?
And while a few souls will get the SP license (as it been posted) in the last 20 years only 7000 SP licenses were issued. 350 a year? WOW that's an amazing draw. The ability to rent a 172 and never be able to fill the seats is a benefit how? Why would you want to rent a more expensive plane? A DA40 is $100 more an hour than a DA20. why would you pay 50% more the same time? for seats you cannot fill?
The FAA medical is also a red herring. Stats show that less than 1% of deferrals are final denied, mostly because the applicant gives up. Flying is not the same stress as driving, so I think 100% you should meet a more stringent standard. Also if you want to SP at night you need at least 1 3rd class medical to fly under Basic Med. So there is still a practical reason you will need a medical.
pfarber
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How to Acquire Sport Pilot Certified Flight Instructor (CFIS) Privileges
Granted CFIs can instruct SP students... my point (although not clear) was that its not going to be a thing.So in the last 20 years 7000 SP certs were issued. The SP hours didn't change. Why wasn't the SP ticket gobbled up to putt putt around in the last 20 years? If anything its going to cost more per hour to fly under SP as LSA's were generally cheaper to rent than standard category class. Where is the big money being saved??????
No, they didn't. The number of SP licensed issued was posted above. Being able to fly a clapped out 172 rental is an incentive? lol no, its not.
Please, please show me how the per hour cost of flying is less. A realistic number is $9k+ for a SP ticket. For about $5k more you can get a PPL. By the time you upgrade a SP to the same privileges as a PPL you're either at the same cost or more.
And as for as the 'woman at the door' reasoning is concerned I don't objectify woman as sex toys so I wouldn't care who shows up. I guess when you can't offer much, you don't.
Baked Potato
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Hundreds of lbs more useful load.
My school has one LSA. Now that MOSAIC has passed I can fly anything in their fleet.
Dana
Final Approach
Two reasons: One, CFIs steered students away from SP and toward PP either due to ignorance of SP, or because they could earn more instructing all the way to PP, or (most likely) they didn't have any LSAs available to instruct SPs in. That last factor changed with MOSAIC.
You just contradicted yourself. What was your point again?
You didn't read what I wrote. What I said was, a lot of people got a PP "just to fly around", before SP was an option, or because there were no rental LSAs available. They rented that "clapped out 172" because that's what the FBO had available. Now they can do that with an SP ticket.
By your numbers, SP is about $6k cheaper.
Nor do I but I have an aesthetic appreciation of beauty. It was a joke, which you seem to have missed.
Skyrys62
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Waste of time y'all..
crash7
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DaleB
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Agreed. Don't know why I even bothered. The ignore feature saves so much time.
Daleandee
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kell490
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How many here fly with more then one passenger regularly for recreational purposes. If I had to guess PPL's fly with no more then 1 other person 99% of the time. Probably 90% of the time alone how often are you flying at night or IMC. I live in Arizona 300 clear days a year night flying what's there to see not much. The medical I could pass after a few years of hassling with them over stuff that happend years ago. If their medical system took a few weeks or months to work everything out I would get a medical. Takes them 6 months to read letter can't even talk to them on the phone all has to be done by letters like the 19th century not about being able to pass.
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Ed Haywood
Final Approach
So on a slightly different tack, MOSAIC creates a path for non-builder EAB owners to repair and inspect their own aircraft, correct?
Has anyone seen a proliferation in LSRM and LSRI courses? I've only seen a few listed, so wondering whether the added capability will cause them to be more widespread.
The LSRM airplane courses I've seen were all listed as 120 hours (3 weeks?). Is that mandated?
I saw someone somewhere saying the LSRI was 15 hours. Also mandated?
Has anyone seen a proliferation in LSRM and LSRI courses? I've only seen a few listed, so wondering whether the added capability will cause them to be more widespread.
The LSRM airplane courses I've seen were all listed as 120 hours (3 weeks?). Is that mandated?
I saw someone somewhere saying the LSRI was 15 hours. Also mandated?
idahoflier
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EAB owners could always repair/maintain their aircraft. In fact, anyone can repair/maintain them. Previously EAB builders could apply for and receive a Repairman Certificate for their aircraft (only one repairman certificate could be issued) which allowed them to perform the condition inspection of the EAB aircraft. Otherwise an A&P could perform the condition inspection. MOSAIC now allows an LSRI-A (16 hour course) to perform the condition inspection on an EAB that they own or an LSRM-A (120 hour course) to perform the condition inspection on an EAB.
I'm not sure on this, but I believe now that MOSAIC is in effect, there are no more LSRI-A's and LSRM-A's being issued and the FAA will have to approve the new courses. I think the LSRI will still be a two day course (mandated), but the new LSRM will be a skills based course with no specific course duration defined. I anticipate it will take a while for all of this to get hashed out by those wishing to provide the training and the FAA approving their curriculum...
Kenny Phillips
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Naw, I'd pay $100/hour, wet, for a '46 Cub. And I have.
Also have a choice of two C152s for the same price.
But usually I rent a C172, for $155/hour.
And MOSAIC solved that last one. Right there. Fixed.
(I have a "hard case" medical, though I may still pursue it.)
Dana
Final Approach
No, the courses are still happening, but they fill up fast. I'm on the schedule for an LSRI-A class... in March. They're trying to add more classes but it takes time.
They're still issuing certificates. The LSRI course probably won't change significantly but there's talk of extending the LSRM class to a full semester. Existing certificate holders will be grandfathered, so some are saying do it now while it's still only 3 weeks.
As I recall there is a provision in MOSAIC to maintain the current LSR schools and curriculum until such date the new curriculums are approved. The biggest change is that LSR schools must follow the mechanic Airmen Certification Standards which are the same standards used for A&Ps. I'm not 100%, but I believe the class lengths are now measured in days vs hours before MOSAIC. So the actual length may vary depending on how the training provider schedules their classes to meet the requirements. Another pro for using the ACSs, is that any current 147 school can now easily develop a LSR program from their existing reference material so it should expand the available LSR providers over a larger area.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I remember reading this sort of stuff in 1991. Read the 61.101 and 61.313. Then ask yourself what the MOSIAC is allowing that couldn’t be done in 1991 under Recreational and why so few people took advantage the best thing since sliced bread.CFIs don't need an SP endorsement. Any CFI can instruct a student for SP.
Students on a career track likely won't bother with SP, true... but we're talking about students who have no desire to be on a career track.
An awful lot of people dumped $10k in a PP ticket just to putt around. I did (well, a lot less than $10k back then but about the same considering inflation). And, a 2 seat "putt putt around" aircraft rents for considerably less than "$200+".
That's because most pilots needing an SI don't even bother to apply for one; they either quit flying... or go SP. Like me: I could spend $10k on medically unnecessary tests to get that SI... or fly as SP, which covers 100% of the kind of flying I want to do. I'd have to be an idiot to spin the SI roulette wheel.
Again, because many people don't bother to apply if they know they'll have trouble, and/or they can't afford the unnecessary tests for the SI.
No, at least two would complain... @pfarber and @Clip4.
DaleB
Final Approach
Flying without a third class medical or Basic Med, for one. That's kind of a big deal for a fair number of pilots. Minor second would be not having to carry extra documentation to fly more than 50 NM from your home base, but that's not that big of a deal, really. I know when I started my training I looked at the recreational pilot certificate and decided against it. By the time I got the RP cert with all of the extra training and endorsements required to fly where and when I wanted, I'd be most of the way to a Private Pilot cert but would still not be allowed to fly at night. I can't fly at night again now under SP privileges, but for the period that I held a medical I was able to and did.
In short - if you have to get a medical certificate anyway, which you do for RP, then you may as well get your PP cert or put up with a bunch of restrictions. Just speaking from my own experience, I think that's why it never really caught on.
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Local Club has a 152 $100 Wet. A different place has a Tecnam LSA for $128 Wet. No brainer.