Hangar vs Tie Down

[steingar]

The outdoors affects way more than paint. Your avionics are subject to the elements, which don't assist wiring that is often decades old. If your airplane leaks (many do) water can get in and do a number on your interior. Your aircraft is also made available to any local fauna that might care to make a home of it, tear up wiring, insulation and components of delicate and essential systems, not to mention urinating, defacating, shedding and doing Odin knows what to your airplane.

Add to that the difficulty in clearing snow and ice during cold weather, not to mention trying to preheat the engine. And you aircraft is outdoors and in harms way during any adverse weather event. Hail damage is not good for airplanes.

To be honest, if you think so little of your airplane that you'll just leave it outdoors, you should sell it to someone who will value it and take care of it. They really aren't making these things anymore, not enough to replace what we loose. The airplanes we fly will be flown by the next generation of pilots. We aren't their owners, we're their caretakers, and we should do it responsibly.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

To be honest, if you think so little of your airplane that you'll just leave it outdoors, you should sell it to someone who will value it and take care of it. They really aren't making these things anymore, not enough to replace what we loose. The airplanes we fly will be flown by the next generation of pilots. We aren't their owners, we're their caretakers, and we should do it responsibly.

I love the thought that when I'm dead and gone, my aircraft will live on to be enjoyed by someone else. It's a cool bit of legacy to pass on to future aviators.

 

[tspear]

To be honest, if you think so little of your airplane that you'll just leave it outdoors, you should sell it to someone who will value it and take care of it. They really aren't making these things anymore, not enough to replace what we loose. The airplanes we fly will be flown by the next generation of pilots. We aren't their owners, we're their caretakers, and we should do it responsibly.

Why? Any plane I buy is not a piece of art. I could understand if you discussing a Staggerwing, a Gruman Goose. But a Cirrus, Velocity? Not exactly rare or special?
And if you think they are all really special and should be protected, then you need to start buying a lot of rotting planes on the ramp.
Further, I am much more analytical then emotional about the plane and the financial aspects of it.

Tim

 

[OkieFlyer]

$100-$300 for a tie down??? That's disgusting. You people should revolt!

People just don't tie down outside around here. Only the junk is left outside.

 

[cgrab]

At $200 a month I consider my hangar fee to be part of my insurance. Here in North AL we get a couple of storms a year that have potential to ruin a plane with wind or hail. Even if my plane is tied down well, who knows what will come flying into it on those windy days. As the comedian said "it's not THAT the wind is blowing, it's WHAT the wind is blowing that matters"

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm also in the camp that doesn't see an airplane as a curator piece, nor an emotional endeavor in order to leave a legacy to "the children".

To be clear, I ultimately hangar because: 1) it's available 2) I can afford it and 3) it's inside the proximity radius I tolerate as making ownership worth my while in the first place. If any of these conditionals were not attainable, I would tie down and simply eat the recurring environmental damage to the airplane into the mx costs. So I think we can do without the True Scotsman fallacy of tie-down vs hangared owners when it comes to the legitimacy of membership in this hobby, especially in the context of metro locations.

 

[edo2000]

A cheap hangar in Anchorage is $500K. A nice one, and a couple are available, are $1 mil. My outdoor tiedown at a state airport is $50 per month. No restrictions on working on the plane or self-fueling. Alaska weather is sometimes harsh but our UV index is low. Parking outside has worked for me for 25 years and counting. I'll spend that hangar money on better things that offer much better returns on investment.

Yep. Even in Soldotna (a small town south of Anchorage) hangars with doors are north of 200K. Approximately the value of my house when I was there. Very few rentals available and typically 500+/month. Cheap tiedowns at state airports, as mentioned. Kept a very nice C185 on a tie down for 25 years in Soldotna, no maintenance issues that I could point at parking outside.. My brother still has it there and it is still outside on a tie down.

I'm in high desert New Mexico now where hangar rent is relatively cheap ($150/mo for a square hangar with an asphalt floor and no hangar mates) and the UV index is awful. Hangar is the way to go, here.

 

[WannFly]

Tie downs are free here, for a reason, if u keep the plane outside in winter, u ain't flying much

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[Kritchlow]

Everyone talks of the elements. I get that. Wind, sun..., but how many of these seemingly great hangars are actually climate controlled?

I love the idea of an office and workshop in the hangar, but what about in 30° temps? Is it heated?
Ive seen some that basically double as a condo. Is that realistic??

 

[MBDiagMan]

I'm also in the camp that doesn't see an airplane as a curator piece, nor an emotional endeavor in order to leave a legacy to "the children".

To be clear, I ultimately hangar because: 1) it's available 2) I can afford it and 3) it's inside the proximity radius I tolerate as making ownership worth my while in the first place. If any of these conditionals were not attainable, I would tie down and simply eat the recurring environmental damage to the airplane into the mx costs. So I think we can do without the True Scotsman fallacy of tie-down vs hangared owners when it comes to the legitimacy of membership in this hobby, especially in the context of metro locations.

I can't fathom an airplane that is a curator piece outside of rare warbirds or planes of historical significance like the spirit of St. Louis or something.

That said, they are machines that must be in good repair or they become unreliable. An unreliable airplane becomes unsafe. Increased maintenance costs are not the only potential result of leaving an airplane in the elements to rot. Leaving an airplane in the elements allows it to deteriorate in many ways. Allowing it to rot over time, denying the next generation of aviators is selfish. Someone in this thread talked about us being caretakers. We indeed are caretakers. Enjoy your airplane, take good care of it, and as we try to get more young people interested in flying we will leave a fleet of aircraft for them to fly.

Again, it is your money and you can do with it as you please. If you want to burn it, throw it in the river or whatever, it is your right to do so, OR you can enjoy your airplane more by caring for it and preserve it for the next eager, smiling young aviator to also enjoy. Sharing with the next generation is a wonderful thing.

Personally, my Son in law has his own plane and I hope to see my grandson take over the joy and responsibility of my planes some day. Leaving them outside to rot, no matter how much money I pour into them in the form of added maintenance costs, would probably make it impossible for him to ever do that.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Everyone talks of the elements. I get that. Wind, sun..., but how many of these seemingly great hangars are actually climate controlled?

I love the idea of an office and workshop in the hangar, but what about in 30° temps? Is it heated?
Ive seen some that basically double as a condo. Is that realistic??

Most hangars are not climate controlled, but a good tight hangar provides better protection than sitting in the elements by an order of magnitude.

 

[Radar Contact]

Everyone talks of the elements. I get that. Wind, sun..., but how many of these seemingly great hangars are actually climate controlled?

I love the idea of an office and workshop in the hangar, but what about in 30° temps? Is it heated?
Ive seen some that basically double as a condo. Is that realistic??

Mine is heated and insulated with upgraded lighting. It can be single digits out and I can keep it 70 degrees easily. I'm going to install a wifi thermostat so I can warm it up from my phone while on my way. Keep it set around 55 and bump it up before arrival.

 

[Dana]

This is in the "better than nothing" category... heating it would be a bit impractical, huh?

 

[Mistake Not...]

This whole analysis is based on a bad assumption.

If you try to maximize miles flown per $, just put the money you'd spend on any aspect of owning a plane on account with an airline. Done.

My goal is a little more complicated, not entirely quantifiable and therefore I have to use several heuristics to achieve a satisfactory result. Some combination of what I can afford, where I am, what I feel like putting up with, what's available, future time preference, comfort, etc. usually ends up with me putting the airplane in a hangar. If it doesn't for someone else, cool... hangar list just got shorter.

 

[MBDiagMan]

This is in the "better than nothing" category... heating it would be a bit impractical, huh?

Yes, but a hail shed is a LOT BETTER than nothing!

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Mine is heated and insulated with upgraded lighting. It can be single digits out and I can keep it 70 degrees easily. I'm going to install a wifi thermostat so I can warm it up from my phone while on my way. Keep it set around 55 and bump it up before arrival.
View attachment 56126

I'm jealous.... Just saying...

 

[edo2000]

Tie downs are free here, for a reason, if u keep the plane outside in winter, u ain't flying much

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Not sure where you are that if airplanes are kept outside in winter they can't fly much. I worked for an FBO in Alaska that had everything from C150s to Navajos. The aircraft pretty much all sat outside unless they were in the shop for maintenance. There was ice and snow on the ramp from October til April. Lots of -30 cold spells. You use wing covers and you preheat, including the cockpit. It works just fine. There was an outfit next door that had four JetRangers and Bell 205 they used for offshore platform support and other tasks; those mostly sat outside also.

Hangars are great, I am in one right now, but flying goes on with or without them.

 

[John221us]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't fly without a hangar, but the OP's simplistic breakdown of value doesn't make any sense. There are many factors that add value to a hangar and airplane maintenance is just one of them:

• Dispatchability - low tire pressure, etc. my tools/compressor are right there.
• Time to uncover / cover de-ice etc. (time is money)
• Plane maintenance- much easier in a hangar
• Community - beer in the fridge, hang out and get to know your neighbors
• Security - less likely for vandalism and theft

I am sure I missed a few, but the point is that the value of a hangar goes beyond repainting every 10 years and replacing some UV damaged avionics. Obviously, each person has to do thier own math, but some of us put more value on having a hangar. I pay around $350/mo. Which would be a lot to some, but apparently a bargain in other areas. It is like buying a house with a garage or no garage. What is that worth? I am pretty sure the cost of painting a car doesn't play much in factoring that decision.

 

[tspear]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't fly without a hangar, but the OP's simplistic breakdown of value doesn't make any sense. There are many factors that add value to a hangar and airplane maintenance is just one of them:

• Dispatchability - low tire pressure, etc. my tools/compressor are right there.
• Time to uncover / cover de-ice etc. (time is money)
• Plane maintenance- much easier in a hangar
• Community - beer in the fridge, hang out and get to know your neighbors
• Security - less likely for vandalism and theft

I am sure I missed a few, but the point is that the value of a hangar goes beyond repainting every 10 years and replacing some UV damaged avionics. Obviously, each person has to do thier own math, but some of us put more value on having a hangar. I pay around $350/mo. Which would be a lot to some, but apparently a bargain in other areas. It is like buying a house with a garage or no garage. What is that worth? I am pretty sure the cost of painting a car doesn't play much in factoring that decision.

Actually, that was the question I was asking. Is it just money? If yes, where is the breakeven? Is it emotional? What drives the decision?
Right now, I do not do my own maintenance. Mostly due to a lack of time, compounded by higher priorities (e.g. kids). I am not likely to do it until I retire and do not live in an expensive metro area, where I can make the time and the kids are gone. The big city airports which I have been based in, do not have a community environment around the hangars; it all seems to happen at the FBO. Could be related to needing the SIDA badges to even get to the hangar. With SIDA, do I really need to discuss security? The tie down areas are next to the terminal building with a police presence 24x7.

Again, this question is more of a big metro area (or Alaska) conundrum. The rest of the country has found a way to make hangars cheap enough, that the choice is fairly simple.

Tim

 

[codeeno]

For me.... I keep my cars in a garage so they last longer and in better shape than sitting out on the street. My plane is more expensive and I'm more emotionally attached to it so I had to have the same. In a hangar, it's protected from the elements, it's more secure - nobody accidentally does something that impacts the plane - my interior will last longer and it stays out of ice and snow. In Colorado we get plenty of hail every year - so I don't want to have a plane that looks like it was designed after a golf ball.

I agree with the folks who say keep tools/do MX work etc. The last thing I'd add is the benefit of having electricity for my pre-heater or air compressor. It's great to call the plane to turn on my heater about early in the AM and have the engine warmed up and ready to start.

Dean

 

[MBDiagMan]

As far as the airport socializing goes:.....

I have hangared at three airports. I previously hangared at small town airports with not a lot of activity. Even there, on a flying day, most of us would mill around and visit, or accumulate in someone's hangar for a visit. It was not uncommon on a pretty day for someone to fire up the charcoal and feed a number of people.

My current hangar is positioned unbelievably well for such socialization. Just behind me is an air museum with an unbelievable collection of airworthy warbirds, so there are lots of people to drop by when the door is open. Now that I have a refrigerator and other things we spend nice weather time there. Having a bathroom in the hangar also adds to the being at home element.

Also, tools and equipment being handy and secure is something you can't really put a dollar figure on.

 

[wayne]

For me.... I keep my cars in a garage so they last longer and in better shape than sitting out on the street.

^ This.

Buyers have always been surprised when they saw my cars I've sold. Garaged at home an in a parking deck at work. They are outside while driving or shopping; and some of the malls here have decks and I use those regardless of whether they are near where I'm shopping or not. The paint and interior are in much better shape than cars that park outside at home, work or both.

Same for planes. I was flying a 2002 SR22 that was hangared. The owner moved and then I rented a couple nearby SR22s. They were 2 or 3 years newer, but looked several years older. Exterior and interior were both in worse shape.

 

[lancie00]

Looks like a hangar to me.

 

[steingar]

Not sure where you are that if airplanes are kept outside in winter they can't fly much. I worked for an FBO in Alaska that had everything from C150s to Navajos. The aircraft pretty much all sat outside unless they were in the shop for maintenance. There was ice and snow on the ramp from October til April. Lots of -30 cold spells. You use wing covers and you preheat, including the cockpit. It works just fine. There was an outfit next door that had four JetRangers and Bell 205 they used for offshore platform support and other tasks; those mostly sat outside also.

Hangars are great, I am in one right now, but flying goes on with or without them.

There is a pretty big difference between airplanes that work every day and those flown for pleasure on days off. Wisdom is the ability to see beyond the lens of your own experience.

 

[WannFly]

Not sure where you are that if airplanes are kept outside in winter they can't fly much. I worked for an FBO in Alaska that had everything from C150s to Navajos. The aircraft pretty much all sat outside unless they were in the shop for maintenance. There was ice and snow on the ramp from October til April. Lots of -30 cold spells. You use wing covers and you preheat, including the cockpit. It works just fine. There was an outfit next door that had four JetRangers and Bell 205 they used for offshore platform support and other tasks; those mostly sat outside also.

Hangars are great, I am in one right now, but flying goes on with or without them.

True to that. But u would rather keep it in hangar and not deal with putting wing cov3rs on when it's -ve temp. There is virtually no planes in the ramp here in winter unless they are taking off, or just landed or not flying at all like the weather mod planes. Kfar

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[WannFly]

As far as the airport socializing goes:.....

I have hangared at three airports. I previously hangared at small town airports with not a lot of activity. Even there, on a flying day, most of us would mill around and visit, or accumulate in someone's hangar for a visit. It was not uncommon on a pretty day for someone to fire up the charcoal and feed a number of people.

My current hangar is positioned unbelievably well for such socialization. Just behind me is an air museum with an unbelievable collection of airworthy warbirds, so there are lots of people to drop by when the door is open. Now that I have a refrigerator and other things we spend nice weather time there. Having a bathroom in the hangar also adds to the being at home element.

Also, tools and equipment being handy and secure is something you can't really put a dollar figure on.

I miss a bathroom in mine...

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[Stewartb]

There is a pretty big difference between airplanes that work every day and those flown for pleasure on days off.

True. Commercial operators won't spend money that doesn't make them money. If hangars saved them money they'd use them. I just spent a week with a lodge owner friend who has four planes sitting outside available for his single pilot operations. Rain and winds that would keep most of us on the ground are his normal conditions. Not a big deal.

In my case? Even with a fairly low UV index my $4000.00-$5000.00 tundra tires get weather covers installed on summer days. Winter wing covers only if I expect to fly regularly, otherwise covers do more damage than good. The wind blew 80mph the night before last. I checked my ropes before dark and slept through the night without worry. Would I like a hangar? Hell yes, but it isn't practical for my life and location.

 

[steingar]

True. Commercial operators won't spend money that doesn't make them money. If hangars saved them money they'd use them. I just spent a week with a lodge owner friend who has four planes sitting outside available for his single pilot operations. Rain and winds that would keep most of us on the ground are his normal conditions. Not a big deal.

Again, elements that won't do much to aircraft working every day can really do a number of ones that sit. For most of us our airplanes sit. I wish it weren't so, but that's their reality.

 

[Stewartb]

That makes no sense. Weather when parked is less abrasive than the same weather at 150mph.

My C-180 has been parked outdoors since 1975 when it left the factory. I had it painted in 2000. It's still one of the prettiest 180s I know of. It sits way more than it should. Wind, rain, snow, etc, all on a dirt ramp at a dirt strip. That's real life through my eyes. UV kills airplanes. That's not a big problem in Alaska.

 

[edo2000]

There is a pretty big difference between airplanes that work every day and those flown for pleasure on days off. Wisdom is the ability to see beyond the lens of your own experience.

Never let it be said that I don't seek and revere wisdom. The FBO example I gave was just one anecdote from "the lens of my experience". Here's another: I bought a Citabria to learn to fly in Alaska in the 70's. I owned airplanes(8 different models) in AK until I left 4 yrs ago. Never hangared them. The only people I knew who hangared were doctors, dentists, and other pillars of the community with much more money than me. I also flew with many doctors and dentists who did not spring for hangars. I live in small town New Mexico now; hangars are cheap; my airplane sits inside for the first time in my flying career.

All I am saying is that hangaring an aircraft is a good thing to do when it makes sense financially. Sometimes it absolutely doesn't make sense. The breakpoint for that call will differ for different situations and people. An airplane is a machine. If you need a flying machine and a hangar is either not available or way expensive, I say, park it outside and fly.

 

[MickYoumans]

Right about now I am ssooo glad my airplane is in a nice hangar. With the threat of Irma coming up the east coast with projected high winds, I am very relieved to have my plane inside. These are new hangars that were built last year. I talked to the airport manager and he said they were built to withstand 100 mph winds. Fortunately hangars are very affordable in this part of the country and well worth every penny!!! The airport closest to my house is 10 miles away but does not have fuel or hangars. The airport where I am based is 19 miles away but well worth the extra 10 minute drive.

 

[tspear]

Again, elements that won't do much to aircraft working every day can really do a number of ones that sit. For most of us our airplanes sit. I wish it weren't so, but that's their reality.

Why is that? The rain can still get in...

Tim

 

[N53KL]

I am in Connecticut where hangars are either expensive or impossible to find. If I had a reasonable choice, I would always go for a hangar. That said, in the 13 years of ownership (since I repainted) my airplane has been tied down outside. I get a professional wash and wax every year and the paint has faired really well.

If you spend some money to preserve your airplane, being forced to be in the weather is not so bad.

Kevin

 

[hindsight2020]

I am in Connecticut where hangars are either expensive or impossible to find. If I had a reasonable choice, I would always go for a hangar. That said, in the 13 years of ownership (since I repainted) my airplane has been tied down outside. I get a professional wash and wax every year and the paint has faired really well.

If you spend some money to preserve your airplane, being forced to be in the weather is not so bad.

Kevin

As has been noted, the problem in the Central Plains and Midwest is that the statistical odds of damage due to HAIL in 13 years time is almost 100%, so your ongoing costs would in fact increase in order to account for this. But your point is noted, on a paint and cosmetics only basis, it is certainly not a false economy at all to tie down in New England. Like everything else in life, location location location.

 

[danhagan]

In the Austin Texas/Central Texas area, hangars are a very rare commodity.

I almost partnered on a plane ... The last annual before I became involved was $9000 and mainly due to the replacement of some major components of the fuel system due to water. I suggested to the other potential owner that we replace the fuel caps with Monarchs and he said they cost too much. ??????

Could always partner with him, never fly it and ask if he minds if you get a life insurance policy on him

 

[Zeldman]

That makes no sense. Weather when parked is less abrasive than the same weather at 150mph.

My C-180 has been parked outdoors since 1975 when it left the factory. I had it painted in 2000. It's still one of the prettiest 180s I know of. It sits way more than it should. Wind, rain, snow, etc, all on a dirt ramp at a dirt strip. That's real life through my eyes. UV kills airplanes. That's not a big problem in Alaska.

You keep your plane at Hood or Merrill..??

 

[brenec]

I just moved "indoors" to a T-hangar at Albany International Airport - I was formerly a tie-down tenant in the same area. We just parked the plane in our new hangar for the first time, and it was a lot more difficult than I expected to push it backwards into the hanger (as a single person). I have a Piper Dakota, and "as parked" probably weighs about 2,300 lbs right now. I used to pull up in front of my tie-down spot and then push it directly backwards into position without a whole lot of problem. I think there is a slight drainage grade in front of the T-hangar, and that seems to have made a big difference! I got it into the hangar eventually, but I used pretty much my whole strength to push it backwards. Here's the question - I've never owned a "tug" before (since I didn't need one or have a place to put one), but I think it might be necessary in this case. Any suggestions? The first thing I did was to pump up my tires to their pressure specifications, and I think that might help a bit. What do others do in this situation?

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Hail = game over

Yep. We got $15K worth of dents in our Skyhawk (in 1999 dollars!) whilst on the waiting list. Of course, we got the hangar shortly thereafter.

 

[wayne]

It doesn’t look like Redline makes a version of the Sidewinder for the Dakota. If you can find one like that they are great. They fold up and fit in luggage. Makes it easy-peasy for moving the plane around at self-serve, as well as th hangar, so not a problem if you are waiting in line or moving it away quickly after fueling for the next person to pull up.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I will be moving once I sell, hangar availability and price will dictate where I will live.


Tom