Gulfstream Girl

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weilke said:
So you paid for your 650hrs worth of avgas and 2 planes with a paper-route ?
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My parents paid for it, that's a hell of a lot different than this situation. I'm their son, not some random person.

Now, if my dad decided to buy a Meridian and hired someone with 250TT and a cute face to fly it, that would be similar. My mom wouldn't be too happy though.
 
DavidWhite said:
My parents paid for it, that's a hell of a lot different than this situation. I'm their son, not some random person.

Now, if my dad decided to buy a Meridian and hired someone with 250TT and a cute face to fly it, that would be similar. My mom wouldn't be too happy though.
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I have a lot more than 250 hours, but my face is not all that cute. That mean I am out of contention? :D

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David:

Sorry to read about your opportunity evaporating. Bad deal. :mad:
 
For those "good for her" people. Say you work for a company that advertises the same mins that I published 50 pages back. You've worked your butt off for years of flying and got hired on with say 2,000 hrs. Couple years later the owner hires a 250 hr attractive (male or female) pilot that's doing the same job and getting paid the same as you. You all can't tell me you wouldn't be at least a little perturbed. :mad:

On the flip side while I would be pretty pleased if I got hired on a company with 250 hrs, I would at least find it a little strange that I was hired on with about 10 % of the minimum hrs a corporate company requires. I'd walk into a pilots lounge, surrounded by experience and say "man I must be pretty darn good." :)
 
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DavidWhite said:
My parents paid for it, that's a hell of a lot different than this situation. I'm their son, not some random person.
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Ok, so you were lucky in your choice of parents. You didn't 'pay your dues' just like GG didn't pay hers. You have no right to point fingers.

Dont even remember that it mentioned anywhere that her type rating got paid for by anyone but herself. Lots of money in modeling. Even if someone else paid for it, their money, their decision.
 
I just ran across the red board thread on Gulfstream Girl, and oddly enough, there seems to be far less sour grapes there than here. Who woulda thought? :)
 
Velocity173 said:
For those "good for her" people. Say you work for a company that advertises the same mins that I published 50 pages back. You've worked your butt off for years of flying and got hired on with say 2,000 hrs. Couple years later the owner hires a 250 hr attractive (male or female) pilot that's doing the same job and getting paid the same as you. You all can't tell me you wouldn't be at least a little perturbed. :mad:
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I obviously don't work at the same place but I didn't see the inside of a business jet until I had 6-7000 hours. So what? People shouldn't worry so much about comparing themselves with others. I still say good for her and others around here who have gotten nice breaks.
 
Velocity173 said:
For those "good for her" people. Say you work for a company that advertises the same mins that I published 50 pages back. You've worked your butt off for years of flying and got hired on with say 2,000 hrs. Couple years later the owner hires a 250 hr attractive (male or female) pilot that's doing the same job and getting paid the same as you. You all can't tell me you wouldn't be at least a little perturbed. :mad:

On the flip side while I would be pretty pleased if I got hired on a company with 250 hrs, I would at least find it a little strange that I was hired on with about 10 % of the minimum hrs a corporate company requires. I'd walk into a pilots lounge, surrounded by experience and say "man I must be pretty darn good." :)
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So do you want life to take away every lucky break you got including being born in America? Your thinking justifies third-worlders hating Americans, IMO. Is that what you advocate? A pretty girl got an extra break. Welcome to life. Like I said, she might have a lot more on the ball than just a pretty face. And I mean intelligence, personality, etc. so get y'all's minds out of the gutter :D
 
hindsight2020 said:
As it ties to GG, to not thread creep, If I want eye candy I do like the rest of society and rent it by the hour; not give eye candy the keys to positions of influence and stiocly let the car come off the rails when the S hits the F.
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The fact that it seems entirely impossible to half of the posters in this thread for a woman to be both "eye candy" and able to manage a position of influence is, to me, the most depressing thing I have come across lately.
 
livitup said:
The fact that it seems entirely impossible to half of the posters in this thread for a woman to be both "eye candy" and able to manage a position of influence is, to me, the most depressing thing I have come across lately.
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:thumbsup:
 
alfadog said:
So do you want life to take away every lucky break you got including being born in America? Your thinking justifies third-worlders hating Americans, IMO. Is that what you advocate? A pretty girl got an extra break. Welcome to life. Like I said, she might have a lot more on the ball than just a pretty face. And I mean intelligence, personality, etc. so get y'all's minds out of the gutter :D
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If third world countries hate us because we advocate hard work, fairness and equality, so be it. So your saying hiring based on best qualified isn't the right thing to do?

No one's head is in the gutter here. No one is implying anything illegal or even anything inappropriate in how GG got hired.
 
livitup said:
The fact that it seems entirely impossible to half of the posters in this thread for a woman to be both "eye candy" and able to manage a position of influence is, to me, the most depressing thing I have come across lately.
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True, but that post had a good point, its why I don't go to Hooters, if I wanted to ogle women as an adult I can go truly ogle and not have to order crummy food as justification.
 
Velocity173 said:
If third world countries hate us because we advocate hard work, fairness and equality, so be it. So your saying hiring based on best qualified isn't the right thing to do?
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I apologize for taking a Spin Zone twist so I will drop it just by saying that if you think third-worlders don't work hard and if you really think that, to the degree that they may hate us, they do so for those reasons, well...

Regarding hiring, no, I am saying that a private individual has the right to hire whomever he or she pleases and we do not know what led to GG getting the job that she did and it does not matter. That is between her and her employer. Everything else is sour grapes.
 
Skylane81E said:
Well David sure did when he said he can't bone his way to the top but I think we get he is a little, shall we say, upset.
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I'd be upset too, if I always got everything I wanted without paying for it, and then suddenly didn't when someone else did.
 
Skylane81E said:
True, but that post had a good point, its why I don't go to Hooters, if I wanted to ogle women as an adult I can go truly ogle and not have to order crummy food as justification.
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And some of the waitresses at Hooters are good waitresses too. I actually imagine that it's a pretty competitive job to get into - the tips have got to be fantastic. Though you're right, the food is atrocious.

What evidence do we have that she was hired because she was eye candy? Is it impossible for any person to be qualified to fly right seat of a Gulfstream at 250 hours? The FAA apparently doesn't think so.

What depresses me is that a lot of people seem to be saying "it's impossible for her to be qualified, she must have been hired for her looks." That's incredibly demeaning. If she was a guy, this would either be a non-story, or we'd be joking about how he must have a huge whatziz and be boning the owner's wife.
 
alfadog said:
Regarding hiring, no, I am saying that a private individual has the right to hire whomever he or she pleases and we do not know what led to GG getting the job that she did and it does not matter. That is between her and her employer. Everything else is sour grapes.
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/thread
 
weilke said:
Ok, so you were lucky in your choice of parents. You didn't 'pay your dues' just like GG didn't pay hers. You have no right to point fingers.

Dont even remember that it mentioned anywhere that her type rating got paid for by anyone but herself. Lots of money in modeling. Even if someone else paid for it, their money, their decision.
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Isn't he taking a job in AK flying for a part 135 company? I would call that paying dues. Having parents help you pay for ratings is certainly different than being handed a job. Many parents pay for college, this is similar to college. You are learning a technical trade. My mom helped me out a bit on my private and a small amount on the instrument. I have paid my dues in aviation to get where I am. Now if GG had parents buy her a type in the Gulfstream, that is a completely different scenario in which I do NOT agree with. No professional pilot should ever pay for training.
 
livitup said:
And some of the waitresses at Hooters are good waitresses too. I actually imagine that it's a pretty competitive job to get into - the tips have got to be fantastic. Though you're right, the food is atrocious.

What evidence do we have that she was hired because she was eye candy? Is it impossible for any person to be qualified to fly right seat of a Gulfstream at 250 hours? The FAA apparently doesn't think so.

What depresses me is that a lot of people seem to be saying "it's impossible for her to be qualified, she must have been hired for her looks." That's incredibly demeaning. If she was a guy, this would either be a non-story, or we'd be joking about how he must have a huge whatziz and be boning the owner's wife.
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I am sure there are plenty of low-time pilots sitting in the right seat of nice airplanes. Maybe related to the owner or to the chief pilot or in the right place at the right time. An awful lot of jobs go on the "not what you know but who you know" basis. The only reason people make a big stink over this one is that she is a self-promoter and has gotten her name out there. And there is nothing wrong with that either, just makes her a target.
 
I've actually learned to be very thankful for some adversity in life. It may not mean I get as far as fast as a person with all the breaks, but life is a game we play against ourselves.

Adapt and overcome.
 
Inverted said:
Isn't he taking a job in AK flying for a part 135 company?
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He posted earlier that he got cut from that job before even going for initial training.

Now if GG had parents buy her a type in the Gulfstream, that is a completely different scenario in which I do NOT agree with. No professional pilot should ever pay for training.
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And again, their money, their decision.

Aside from my folks chipping in for my rent during college, I paid my way through training with computer jobs and a hack-license. Now, I am blessed with a non-aviation job that pays me well and leaves me blocks of free time. If an opportunity came around for me to fly right-seat in someones jet, and all it would take is to write a check for the type-rating, I would do it in a heartbeat. My money, my decision.
 
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weilke said:
He posted earlier that he got cut from that job before even going for initial training.
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Ouch.


weilke said:
And again, their money, their decision.

Aside from my folks chipping in for my rent during college, I paid my way through training with computer jobs and a hack-license. Now, I am blessed with a non-aviation job that pays me well and leaves me blocks of free time. If an opportunity came around for me to fly right-seat in someones jet, and all it would take is to write a check for the type-rating, I would do it in a heartbeat. My money, my decision.
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I agree, your money your decision. But in the world of career aviation, that sets a horrible precedent. We have to constantly battle low wages and poor employee treatment because there are people willing to fly for free, or willing to pay for training. Paying for general licensing and certification is fine. But paying for OJT or company specific training is complete garbage. There are a bunch of operators that hire you with the intention of making you pay 20-30k for a type rating. That is so wrong on so many levels.
 
I understand completely what you are saying, but on the other hand, doesn't the market place determine a pilot's value? If there are people willing to pay that much themselves, then that must mean that the value of a pilot is lower than you would like to think?

I get it, it sucks to be priced out of your career by cheaper labor. But isn't that a component of a free market?

ETA: I teach IT career certification classes for a local community college. 5 years ago, the classes were 80/20 split employer/self paid. My current class is 100% self-paid. These are people who are either unemployed, underemployed, or looking for advancement with their current employers. Does the fact that they are paying for the classes themselves make them a threat to the IT community?
 
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livitup said:
The fact that it seems entirely impossible to half of the posters in this thread for a woman to be both "eye candy" and able to manage a position of influence is, to me, the most depressing thing I have come across lately.
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what do you suppose most of these peopel think of marissa mayer ?
 
Inverted said:
I agree, your money your decision. But in the world of career aviation, that sets a horrible precedent. We have to constantly battle low wages and poor employee treatment because there are people willing to fly for free, or willing to pay for training. Paying for general licensing and certification is fine. But paying for OJT or company specific training is complete garbage. There are a bunch of operators that hire you with the intention of making you pay 20-30k for a type rating. That is so wrong on so many levels.
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I have heard that complaint before. A type-rating at a training center is no different from paying for your SE commercial checkride and the training that leads up to it. You pay for training, you pay for a checkride, you get another set of letters and numbers on your certificate.
If you work as an independent contractor, getting a type-rating paid for by the employer reduces your case for the IC status.

Nobody should pay for company specific indoctrination, I agree with you on that. A type rating is a qualification independent from the company you work for.
 
livitup said:
I understand completely what you are saying, but on the other hand, doesn't the market place determine a pilot's value? If there are people willing to pay that much themselves, then that must mean that the value of a pilot is lower than you would like to think?

I get it, it sucks to be priced out of your career by cheaper labor. But isn't that a component of a free market?
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The market doesn't determine a pilots value in some areas of aviation. A lot of companies pay pilots crap because they know they are a "stepping stone" to a better aviation job. Making pilots pay for type ratings is not free market. Being able to find a company that isn't complete crap, and pays pilots for what they are worth, and pays for training is free market. ;)

Unfortunately, there are those that say they will fly commercial jobs for free to build hours, or will pay their way into a job with a type rating or training. Hell, there are idiots that PAY to sit in the right seat and collect SIC time just to call themselves an airline pilot. It is pure insanity.
 
weilke said:
I have heard that complaint before. A type-rating at a training center is no different from paying for your SE commercial checkride and the training that leads up to it. You pay for training, you pay for a checkride, you get another set of letters and numbers on your certificate.
If you work as an independent contractor, getting a type-rating paid for by the employer reduces your case for the IC status.

Nobody should pay for company specific indoctrination, I agree with you on that. A type rating is a qualification independent from the company you work for.
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I agree with this.

If people are willing to do something for free, well then that makes the value of that something pretty low. Those who also want to do that same something should expect to compete with the people who will do it for free, and set their expectations accordingly.

One's salary demands compared to the market play a factor in one's employability. If the market supports low wages for a particular job, then that's what the people who want to do that job should expect.
Inverted said:
The market doesn't determine a pilots value in some areas of aviation. A lot of companies pay pilots crap because they know they are a "stepping stone" to a better aviation job.
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A lot of companies pay pilots crap, because there is a sufficient supply of pilots willing to do the job for crap.
 
Inverted said:
The market doesn't determine a pilots value in some areas of aviation. A lot of companies pay pilots crap because they know they are a "stepping stone" to a better aviation job. Making pilots pay for type ratings is not free market. Being able to find a company that isn't complete crap, and pays pilots for what they are worth, and pays for training is free market. ;)

Unfortunately, there are those that say they will fly commercial jobs for free to build hours, or will pay their way into a job with a type rating or training. Hell, there are idiots that PAY to sit in the right seat and collect SIC time just to call themselves an airline pilot. It is pure insanity.
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Free market is free market. Doesn't mean fair, doesn't mean good. And doesn't mean what we have in this country necessarily. Free market means you can charge what the market will bear and, in the employment market, you can pay what the market will bear. And if the market of young pilots wanting to build hours will bear practices that you consider unfair or wrong does not make them any less "free market".
 
weilke said:
I have heard that complaint before. A type-rating at a training center is no different from paying for your SE commercial checkride and the training that leads up to it. You pay for training, you pay for a checkride, you get another set of letters and numbers on your certificate.
If you work as an independent contractor, getting a type-rating paid for by the employer reduces your case for the IC status.

Nobody should pay for company specific indoctrination, I agree with you on that. A type rating is a qualification independent from the company you work for.
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A type rating is not a blanket certification. A commercial ticket is, and is required to get paid to fly so we have to have it. A company has a specific aircraft, and required training in order to fly it, you shouldn't have to pay for it. That is the absolute bottom line.
 
JHW said:
what do you suppose most of these peopel think of marissa mayer ?
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Damn, she's only two years older than I am... I have a lot of catching up to do!

Seriously? She got lucky, just like GG and millions of other people, male or female do, and she had the skills to make use of her luck. She got in early with a great company and demonstrated leadership and talent when given the opportunity.
 
Skylane81E said:
And the free market is why I don't work as a pilot!
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It is not free market. United and United Express are the same thing as far as customers are concerned. They book a flight through United.com and if the flight is covered by UE (or Skywest) then they fly it. The United Express or Skywest CA is making 40k while the United 737 Captain is probably making 100k. The regionals know they can pay their pilots crap because they have a never-ending supply of pilots willing to eat dog food while they gain those glorious entries in the logbook. They at least pay for training and the type though. ;)
 
Inverted said:
A type rating is not a blanket certification.
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It sure is. It is a certification to fly any aircraft covered under that type-rating, it is not company specific (unless you are talking about a real oddball jet only operated by one company).

A commercial ticket is, and is required to get paid to fly so we have to have it. A company has a specific aircraft, and required training in order to fly it, you shouldn't have to pay for it. That is the absolute bottom line.
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Well, some people come with the type rating in hand from a prior job or military experience (e.g. a KA350 type for flying one of those antenna farms). Should they be disqualified for competing from a job as well ?

If you leave a job after a couple of months, you take the type rating with you and are free to work for someone else. No different from some IT qualifications like cisco networking, firewall or that microsoft engineer thing.
 
Inverted said:
A type rating is not a blanket certification. A commercial ticket is, and is required to get paid to fly so we have to have it. A company has a specific aircraft, and required training in order to fly it, you shouldn't have to pay for it. That is the absolute bottom line.
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But that type rating is transferrable to fly the same type aircraft for another employer.

I shouldn't have to pay to take my company's mandated training on their custom built computer software, training which will be of no use to me whatsoever if I decide to leave.

I should expect to pay to take training that is easily transferrable to use at a different company, such as an IT certification. Many (most?) employers will pay for such training as a benefit of employment, and I have come to expect a certain amount of company-paid training on an annual basis, as that is the norm for my industry. However, I realize that it is entirely up to my company to offer (or stop offering) that benefit. If I am interviewing with another company, and I ask about paid training benefits, and they say "oh, we don't do that" then that's a negative in their column when comparing benefits, but it doesn't make them unethical, evil, or strange.
 
Just to offer a little personal perspective, the best pilot I've ever known was a pretty girl my age when we were both in our early 20's. The most gifted stick&rudder I've ever seen combined with a college degree in meteorology.

We'd take an overloaded russian turboprop on a night approach up a valley to a 1-way-in airport in in central africa and I would have to wring my shirt out afterward. She'd hop out of the left seat like she'd just driven her car to the store. Nothing phased her and I never recall her making a mistake of any consequence, except that her French sucked trying to talk to the controllers.

But she had a fiancee that thought she should be home more, and parents that didn't approve of her flying, and a worst of all a bunch of our coworkers who didn't think a blonde 5-ft-nothing who sat on a seat cushion should be doing the same job as them. Nothing in the airplane could bother her but I'd hear her crying herself to sleep in the crew crash pad. One morning she was late for the briefing with the loadmaster. I found her alone locked in the office with a hole in her head and her company-issued 9mm by her side. Rachel was 24 years old.

Hopefully this kid in the gulfstream has better coworkers than most of you clowns.
 
weilke said:
It sure is. It is a certification to fly any aircraft covered under that type-rating, it is not company specific (unless you are talking about a real oddball jet only operated by one company).
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Sure it is, and there are tons of odd-ball types out there. A type doesn't give you the ability to fly anything like a commercial ticket. A type rating is specific enough for the industry standard to be that the company pays for it. There is a reason why the majority of companies do not pay for a commercial ticket, but will pay for a type rating. There are plenty of aircraft that don't require a type rating but require specific type training for insurance (PC-12). An initial, or recurrent PC-12 sim session isn't a type, but can be used anywhere to fly the PC-12 as far as insurance is concerned. Should the pilot have to pay for that?
 
Skylane81E said:
And the free market is why I don't work as a pilot!
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Interestingly enough, the current scene with pilots' pay and working conditions is remarkably like the 1888 socialist Utopian novel, Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy. In Bellamy's year 2000, everyone is paid the same (equal distribution of wealth), there is universal access to leisure resources, etc but less desirable jobs are incentivized via adjustments in hours and conditions. Garbage men and the like work the least hours and have more leisure time while doctors work more (the assumption being that a doctor's job is more pleasant - I am not sure all doctors would agree). While there are obvious flaws (for instance, the person who genuinely enjoys his work and would put more hours in is penalized) and the scheme is obviously socialist in nature, anathema to many here, no doubt, it is kind of interesting that our "free market" system has brought this about as regards pilots to some degree. This job that has very high requirements and that used to pay quite well, now pays, at least in the beginning, considerably less than picking up trash because it is so desirable. And garbage men do work relatively short hours.

edit: been a long while since I read this, it is possible that leisure resources are also rationed based on job, i.e. the garbage man gets more time on the sailboat than the lawyer. That makes more sense to me in the logic of the system proposed.
 
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