GTN750 and Instrument Work

BillTIZ

BillTIZ

Final Approach
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
5,369
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ASH, 3B3
Display Name
Display name:
BTIZ
Getting recurrent, 6 approaches and holding, with a GTN750 is CHEATING!! :yes:

What a great navigator! Easy touch screen menu selections to get the airport, approach and which IAF set up, frequencies for the VOR or ILS approach are tuned. Vectors to final, system changes to VLOC mode automatically. GPS mode to an IAF for an ILS and it changes from GPS to VLOC on its own before the FAF.

GPS approach with LPV is like flying an ILS! :yes: just watch the DTK, ATK, keep them matched and watch the Glide Path (think ILS) and the minimum altitude on a leg if you have a step down leg before the descent to the LPV minimum.

Missed to a holding pattern, it tells you the entry, teardrop, gives you the outbound heading and starts your 1min timer! Then provides the heading for the inbound turn and restarts the timer for the inbound leg! :yes:

Change approaches, it gives you the turn, and heading to get to the new IAF!

:yes::yes: IT'S CHEATING! :yes::yes:
 
The GTN series is great. I only have experience with the 650 and it's a fine GPS. I'm sure the 750 is even better
 
That's not cheating. Try having a G600, GTN 750 and 650 plus an IPad like one of our king airs. But why stop there when you can have a dual PFD G1000 in our mustang.
 
Tristar said:
That's not cheating. Try having a G600, GTN 750 and 650 plus an IPad like one of our king airs. But why stop there when you can have a dual PFD G1000 in our mustang.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do have a Gen1 iPad running ForeFlight with the geo referenced approach plates. Makes a good cross reference to the GTN. But with a Gen1 iPad, I still print the paper product approach plates for my knee pad.
 
BillTIZ said:
Getting recurrent, 6 approaches and holding, with a GTN750 is CHEATING!! :yes:

What a great navigator! Easy touch screen menu selections to get the airport, approach and which IAF set up, frequencies for the VOR or ILS approach are tuned. Vectors to final, system changes to VLOC mode automatically. GPS mode to an IAF for an ILS and it changes from GPS to VLOC on its own before the FAF.

GPS approach with LPV is like flying an ILS! :yes: just watch the DTK, ATK, keep them matched and watch the Glide Path (think ILS) and the minimum altitude on a leg if you have a step down leg before the descent to the LPV minimum.

Missed to a holding pattern, it tells you the entry, teardrop, gives you the outbound heading and starts your 1min timer! Then provides the heading for the inbound turn and restarts the timer for the inbound leg! :yes:

Change approaches, it gives you the turn, and heading to get to the new IAF!

:yes::yes: IT'S CHEATING! :yes::yes:
Click to expand...

Nothing cheating about having state of the art equipment and using it well...
 
LPVs rock huh!

My only gripe is the touch screen in turbulence and the lack of being able to navigate the unit by feel.

It's sure a needed addition being able to add airways though. Always thought it was total BS not being able to add victor, jet and Q airways in the GNS series.
 
You can always turn off the GPS portion to simulate satellite reception failure. That will happen for sure if you do an IPC with me. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
You can always turn off the GPS portion to simulate satellite reception failure. That will happen for sure if you do an IPC with me. ;)
Click to expand...

What GPS fail? The military would get upset if that ever happened. Guys would die.
 
CTLSi said:
What GPS fail? The military would get upset if that ever happened. Guys would die.
Click to expand...
Since I know you don't have an instrument rating, I know you don't understand this problem. However, there are a lot of ways one can find oneself without sufficient usable GPS signals for IFR navigation. These include satellite outages (planned and unplanned), military GPS jamming exercises, and lack of sufficient satellites in view. As such, IFR operators from time to time see the "INTEG" light come on and have to revert to old-fashioned VOR navigation. For that reason, I will not sign an IPC without seeing at least one successful no-GPS approach.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since I know you don't have an instrument rating, I know you don't understand this problem. However, there are a lot of ways one can find oneself without sufficient usable GPS signals for IFR navigation. These include satellite outages (planned and unplanned), military GPS jamming exercises, and lack of sufficient satellites in view. As such, IFR operators from time to time see the "INTEG" light come on and have to revert to old-fashioned VOR navigation. For that reason, I will not sign an IPC without seeing at least one successful no-GPS approach.
Click to expand...


Exactly, I have seen the LOI indication several times even after the RAIM check showed nothing was expected. The last time I lost it, I was on an LPV approach which required me to switch to a VOR approach.
 
Marauder said:
Exactly, I have seen the LOI indication several times even after the RAIM check showed nothing was expected. The last time I lost it, I was on an LPV approach which required me to switch to a VOR approach.
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Since CTLSi is a non-IR PP flying a non-IFR S-LSA (probably not equipped with a certified GPS), it's not surprising he doesn't understand this.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since CTLSi is a non-IR PP flying a non-IFR S-LSA (probably not equipped with a certified GPS), it's not surprising he doesn't understand this.
Click to expand...


You don't know what your talking about. GPS doesn't go down.

GPS is an utterly critical resource now. The entire econ would screech to a halt if anyone disrupted the GPS network. Flights, ground deliveries (UPS, FEDEX), farming, hikers on mountains, ships at sea, people on the roads, utility companies on and on...

Here, read up: http://www.gps.gov/multimedia/presentations/2012/10/USTTI/graham.pdf
 
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CTLSi said:
You don't know what your talking about.
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double-facepalm.png
 
Ron Levy said:
double-facepalm.png
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Oh that was funny! It's obvious he hasn't seen it go down. CTLSi -- here is a picture of what it might look like it if it ever did go down (we all know it doesn't fail):
 

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BillTIZ said:
Getting recurrent, 6 approaches and holding, with a GTN750 is CHEATING!! :yes:

What a great navigator! Easy touch screen menu selections to get the airport, approach and which IAF set up, frequencies for the VOR or ILS approach are tuned. Vectors to final, system changes to VLOC mode automatically. GPS mode to an IAF for an ILS and it changes from GPS to VLOC on its own before the FAF.

GPS approach with LPV is like flying an ILS! :yes: just watch the DTK, ATK, keep them matched and watch the Glide Path (think ILS) and the minimum altitude on a leg if you have a step down leg before the descent to the LPV minimum.

Missed to a holding pattern, it tells you the entry, teardrop, gives you the outbound heading and starts your 1min timer! Then provides the heading for the inbound turn and restarts the timer for the inbound leg! :yes:

Change approaches, it gives you the turn, and heading to get to the new IAF!

:yes::yes: IT'S CHEATING! :yes::yes:
Click to expand...

And all that for only $15,000!?! :yes:

It is amazing technology....but with a price!
 
Marauder said:
Oh that was funny! It's obvious he hasn't seen it go down. CTLSi -- here is a picture of what it might look like it if it ever did go down (we all know it doesn't fail):
Click to expand...

But, but, but....that CAN'T happen....it's too important!! :rofl:
 
Ron Levy said:
You can always turn off the GPS portion to simulate satellite reception failure. That will happen for sure if you do an IPC with me. ;)
Click to expand...

Interesting option, is that available with the G1000? I have a local CFII doing primary instrument instruction with a new owner in a Mooney with G1000. He knows the G1000 is easy, but wants the "old school" foundation.

Edit: I suppose my VOR and 2 ILS approaches would count for that. The VOR had a crossing radial for the FAF and timing for loss of DME. I'll have to back to see how the FAF on the ILS was defined but I think it is DME only. Hard to do that with failed GPS on the 750 and no DME backup. Hard to do approaches out here without DME.

Edit II: The PMD ILS 25 does have crossing radials from EDW in addition to the DME to identify the FAF and LOC step down fixes. So if the GPS is out, no "DME" information, set up EDW in Nav 2 with the ILS in Nav 1 and away we go.
 
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LDJones said:
And all that for only $15,000!?! :yes:

It is amazing technology....but with a price!
Click to expand...

It's a rental. The owner replaced a dying KLN89B with the 750 that he got at discount. The local radio shop needed to sell/install xx systems per year to keep his Garmin contract. He got a great discount at the end of the contract year.
 
BillTIZ said:
Interesting option, is that available with the G1000?
Click to expand...
You can dim the MFD, deselect the map inset on the PFD, and delete the active flight plan in the FPL. That forces them back to plain old VOR on the HSI on the PFD with no moving map.
 
warthog1984 said:
Reversionary mode?
Click to expand...
That still leaves you the moving map, albeit smaller, although deleting the active flight plan in the FPL takes away most (but not all) of its usefulness. But the biggest challenge for G1000 pilots is always the AHRS failure mode. You'd have to lose both AHRS's in a Cessna or Cirrus, but most Diamonds only have one, and the remaining CDI display (which doesn't look at all like a traditional CDI) usually gives them fits -- even when the GPS is still working with the moving map over on the MFD.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Since I know you don't have an instrument rating, I know you don't understand this problem. However, there are a lot of ways one can find oneself without sufficient usable GPS signals for IFR navigation. These include satellite outages (planned and unplanned), military GPS jamming exercises, and lack of sufficient satellites in view. As such, IFR operators from time to time see the "INTEG" light come on and have to revert to old-fashioned VOR navigation. For that reason, I will not sign an IPC without seeing at least one successful no-GPS approach.
Click to expand...

So, would I take that to mean you won't do an IPC in a GPS only aircraft?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
So, would I take that to mean you won't do an IPC in a GPS only aircraft?
Click to expand...
I realize it's legal to operate an IFR approach GPS-equipped aircraft with no VOR, ADF, or other ground-based nav system under IFR if the GPS is a TSO-c146 "sole source" system like a Gamin GPS400W, and I'll be happy to give you an IPC in one. However, you'd best have a plan on how you're going to get down safely if due to either satellite problems, RF interference, or single-point onboard equipment failure you lose that GPS, because you will definitely get the opportunity to demonstrate your ability to do that.
 
BillTIZ said:
Getting recurrent, 6 approaches and holding, with a GTN750 is CHEATING!! :yes:

What a great navigator! Easy touch screen menu selections to get the airport, approach and which IAF set up, frequencies for the VOR or ILS approach are tuned. Vectors to final, system changes to VLOC mode automatically. GPS mode to an IAF for an ILS and it changes from GPS to VLOC on its own before the FAF.

GPS approach with LPV is like flying an ILS! :yes: just watch the DTK, ATK, keep them matched and watch the Glide Path (think ILS) and the minimum altitude on a leg if you have a step down leg before the descent to the LPV minimum.

Missed to a holding pattern, it tells you the entry, teardrop, gives you the outbound heading and starts your 1min timer! Then provides the heading for the inbound turn and restarts the timer for the inbound leg! :yes:

Change approaches, it gives you the turn, and heading to get to the new IAF!

:yes::yes: IT'S CHEATING! :yes::yes:
Click to expand...

Agree on all points.

I did my whole IR with a GTN 750 and I said the same thing - it is like cheating it's so easy to fly. I even liked it in turbulence, which exists seemingly 100 to 100% of the time around Denver. :D

And coupled approaches with it just make you feel like doing the approach with arms folded (not really).
 
I am flying a Skylane with the CNX80/GNS480, which is an ancestor to the GTN750, and our club just upgraded the Bo to have the 750.

I fully agree that both of these boxes make IFR flying more enjoyable once you understand them and know the knobology.
 
CTLSi said:
You don't know what your talking about. GPS doesn't go down.

GPS is an utterly critical resource now. The entire econ would screech to a halt if anyone disrupted the GPS network. Flights, ground deliveries (UPS, FEDEX), farming, hikers on mountains, ships at sea, people on the roads, utility companies on and on...

Here, read up: http://www.gps.gov/multimedia/presentations/2012/10/USTTI/graham.pdf
Click to expand...

lol, I've lost gps integrity to the point to where a GPS driven approach wasn't an option on a handful of occasions. I've lost complete GPS coverage for extended periods of time to where even enroute navigation wasn't possible a few times.

Those that say GPS always works and are willing to trust their life on that don't understand how frail it can be and obviously don't fly enough hours in the system otherwise they would see the failures themselves.
 
CTLSi said:
You don't know what your talking about. GPS doesn't go down.

GPS is an utterly critical resource now. The entire econ would screech to a halt if anyone disrupted the GPS network. Flights, ground deliveries (UPS, FEDEX), farming, hikers on mountains, ships at sea, people on the roads, utility companies on and on...

Here, read up: http://www.gps.gov/multimedia/presentations/2012/10/USTTI/graham.pdf
Click to expand...

Man....Judging by some of the posts I've seen from you on this subject, I'd really hate to share the airspace with you if GPS ever did go down...Recently, the Military has been doing jamming in NM around white sands and I lost satellite reception on a 430 (non WAAS) briefly at 2 AM on a victor airway about 2 months ago, but my NAV radios worked just fine. If I subscribed to your point of view, I should probably be thankful I'm alive after cheating death...:mad2:
 
But yes, LPV's are awesome! Gotta love the lowish minimums into airports that otherwise wouldn't have precision approach procedures. Plus, they're super easy to fly compared to some other approaches. Another nice thing about WAAS units is the ability to fly to the normal LNAV mins on a regular GPS approach using the advisory glide path provided eliminating the need to dive and drive like on other non-precision approaches.
 
GCA319 said:
Man....Judging by some of the posts I've seen from you on this subject, I'd really hate to share the airspace with you if GPS ever did go down...Recently, the Military has been doing jamming in NM around white sands and I lost satellite reception on a 430 (non WAAS) briefly at 2 AM on a victor airway about 2 months ago, but my NAV radios worked just fine. If I subscribed to your point of view, I should probably be thankful I'm alive after cheating death...:mad2:
Click to expand...

Again, when was the last time you lost GPS in your car? Unless your receiver dies, you won't see that. There are two levels of redundancy in a system that provides you with six sats at all times (you only really need 4) than you need to do fixes in 3D space.

And there is a whole new gen of sats about to be deployed to replace the older system that will be even more robust, and provide even more reliability.

The GPS system will not go down, and unless Obama manages to allow Russia to get close enough to jam the system, it wont be going down. But if Russia does get that close, flying and driving your toys using GPS will be the least of your worries.

One other thing. While you are busy wasting fuel and time pinging between VORs, I am flying a straight line to my waypoints, strung together in a straight line to my destination.

Read the link I provided. It gives a hint just how reliant we are on GPS.
 
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CTLSi said:
Again, when was the last time you lost GPS in your car? Unless your receiver dies, you won't see that. There are two levels of redundancy in a system that provides you with six sats at all times (you only really need 4) than you need to do fixes in 3D space.

And there is a whole new gen of sats about to be deployed to replace the older system that will be even more robust, and provide even more reliability.

The GPS system will not go down, and unless Obama manages to allow Russia to get close enough to jam the system, it wont be going down. But if Russia does get that close, flying and driving your toys using GPS will be the least of your worries.

One other thing. While you are busy wasting fuel and time pinging between VORs, I am flying a straight line to my waypoints, strung together in a straight line to my destination.

Read the link I provided. It gives a hint just how reliant we are on GPS.
Click to expand...

Localized gps jamming can be accomplished by a simple radio shack setup.
 
CTLSi said:
Again, when was the last time you lost GPS in your car? Unless your receiver dies, you won't see that. There are two levels of redundancy in a system that provides you with six sats at all times (you only really need 4) than you need to do fixes in 3D space.

And there is a whole new gen of sats about to be deployed to replace the older system that will be even more robust, and provide even more reliability.

The GPS system will not go down, and unless Obama manages to allow Russia to get close enough to jam the system, it wont be going down. But if Russia does get that close, flying and driving your toys using GPS will be the least of your worries.

One other thing. While you are busy wasting fuel and time pinging between VORs, I am flying a straight line to my waypoints, strung together in a straight line to my destination.

Read the link I provided. It gives a hint just how reliant we are on GPS.
Click to expand...

You are aware that the military takes GPS out from time to time? you're also aware that I've had a GPS failure in flight and got a subsequent software patch out of Garmin after reporting it? You are aware that the GPS signal is very low power and can easily be jammed?
 
CTLSi said:
Again, when was the last time you lost GPS in your car? Unless your receiver dies, you won't see that. There are two levels of redundancy in a system that provides you with six sats at all times (you only really need 4) than you need to do fixes in 3D space.

And there is a whole new gen of sats about to be deployed to replace the older system that will be even more robust, and provide even more reliability.

The GPS system will not go down, and unless Obama manages to allow Russia to get close enough to jam the system, it wont be going down. But if Russia does get that close, flying and driving your toys using GPS will be the least of your worries.

One other thing. While you are busy wasting fuel and time pinging between VORs, I am flying a straight line to my waypoints, strung together in a straight line to my destination.

Read the link I provided. It gives a hint just how reliant we are on GPS.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: I love pinging between VOR's and wasting fuel.
 
CTLSi said:
Again, when was the last time you lost GPS in your car? Unless your receiver dies, you won't see that. There are two levels of redundancy in a system that provides you with six sats at all times (you only really need 4) than you need to do fixes in 3D space.

And there is a whole new gen of sats about to be deployed to replace the older system that will be even more robust, and provide even more reliability.

The GPS system will not go down, and unless Obama manages to allow Russia to get close enough to jam the system, it wont be going down. But if Russia does get that close, flying and driving your toys using GPS will be the least of your worries.

One other thing. While you are busy wasting fuel and time pinging between VORs, I am flying a straight line to my waypoints, strung together in a straight line to my destination.

Read the link I provided. It gives a hint just how reliant we are on GPS.
Click to expand...
I don't often say anything negative about anyone publicly, but your posts are almost invariably inaccurate, misleading, or flat-out contrary to either the FAR's or the laws of physics. Your very limited experience as a newly-rated pilot operating Light Sport Aircraft is just not sufficient for the subjects on which you post. You really need to stop posting until you learn a lot more, because you waste a lot of my time posting corrections to your erroneous information (and I feel compelled to do that in case someone who doesn't know better reads what you write and maybe gets hurt).

BTW, your car GPS isn't operating in flight, doesn't require the same level of confidence, and yes, I have lost the satellite signal while driving more than once. anyway. It's just not 100% reliable in an airplane -- really.
 
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