GPS for IFR flying - do I need it?

Yep, much as I love my autopilot, I'd give it up before I gave up the IFR GPS/Moving Map.
Not sure why you place so much importance on the moving map. As far as I'm concerned, moving maps are for situational awareness and if my 480's moving map got disabled somehow, I'd still have a "moving map" on my iPad (ForeFlight). But my 480 drives my Sandel, which is really my primary instrument. And if my Sandel failed in flight I'd have the 480 on the NAV page for course guidance, not the MAP page.
 
Not sure why you place so much importance on the moving map. As far as I'm concerned, moving maps are for situational awareness and if my 480's moving map got disabled somehow, I'd still have a "moving map" on my iPad (ForeFlight). But my 480 drives my Sandel, which is really my primary instrument. And if my Sandel failed in flight I'd have the 480 on the NAV page for course guidance, not the MAP page.
Exactly. The moving map is helps the SA enroute and being vectored for the approach, but if you are flying the actual approach using the moving map....you're doing it wrong.
 
All you need is a radio and a CDI. The rest is just extraneous fluff.
 
Exactly. The moving map is helps the SA enroute and being vectored for the approach, but if you are flying the actual approach using the moving map....you're doing it wrong.

More examples of children of the magenta that are far too prevalent. Loss of a moving map is an emergency to them. Truly sad
 
Exactly. The moving map is helps the SA enroute and being vectored for the approach, but if you are flying the actual approach using the moving map....you're doing it wrong.
I don't get it. Since you have the external CDI for course guidance, what's wrong with using the moving map on an approach?
 
For me as a low time Instrument pilot, from a safety perspective the autopilot is more important than GPS. From a utility perspective, GPS in conjunction with Nav radio for VOR/GS/LOC gives you the most most options. If I were buying another plane tomorrow I'd want both. YMMV.....
 
I don't get it. Since you have the external CDI for course guidance, what's wrong with using the moving map on an approach?
If yours is as accurate as your CDI, then nothing wrong at all, as long as you cross check against the CDI. Mine isn't that accurate, even on the 1/4 mile scale.
 
If yours is as accurate as your CDI, then nothing wrong at all, as long as you cross check against the CDI. Mine isn't that accurate, even on the 1/4 mile scale.
When I was flying IFR, I used the CDI as the primary course guidance, not as a cross-check. I used the moving map to visualize my position along the approach, and as an indication of my bearing, which made it easier to stay on the approach course.
 
When I was flying IFR, I used the CDI as the primary course guidance, not as a cross-check. I used the moving map to visualize my position along the approach, and as an indication of my bearing, which made it easier to stay on the approach course.
IOW for situational awareness. I agree that's the best way to use the moving map. :)
 
Not sure why you place so much importance on the moving map. As far as I'm concerned, moving maps are for situational awareness and if my 480's moving map got disabled somehow, I'd still have a "moving map" on my iPad (ForeFlight). But my 480 drives my Sandel, which is really my primary instrument. And if my Sandel failed in flight I'd have the 480 on the NAV page for course guidance, not the MAP page.
I think we're not disagreeing. You still have some MOVING MAP even with foreflight.
 
If yours is as accurate as your CDI, then nothing wrong at all, as long as you cross check against the CDI. Mine isn't that accurate, even on the 1/4 mile scale.
Plus, unless you have an Aspen PFD or are flying a modern airline panel, your moving map is typically off to the side of your primary flight instruments and not in your direct line of sight.
 
I'm trying to visualize this discussion when, in turn, VOR, ADF, Low Freq Radio Range navigation, the HSI, DG, and Sperry's original gyro turn indicator* came along.

Hmmmm.... I think I can see it.... The fogs of time are lifting... It's getting clearer..... Clearer...


Yes! Exact same discussion! Some saying it's a great addition to efficiency and safety; others saying you're not a "real pilot" unless you don't use it since, if you use them, it proves you are unable to fly without them!

[* Even Sperry referred to his turn indicator as "a crutch for the compass."
rotflmao.png
]
 
I'm trying to visualize this discussion when, in turn, VOR, ADF, Low Freq Radio Range navigation, the HSI, DG, and Sperry's original gyro turn indicator* came along.

Hmmmm.... I think I can see it.... The fogs of time are lifting... It's getting clearer..... Clearer...


Yes! Exact same discussion! Some saying it's a great addition to efficiency and safety; others saying you're not a "real pilot" unless you don't use it since, if you use them, it proves you are unable to fly without them!

[* Even Sperry referred to his turn indicator as "a crutch for the compass."
rotflmao.png
]

Nope, not at all. Just saying that unless the OP goes into a lot of small fields IMC, the IFR GPS isn't that important. With the possibilities of a loss of our GPS constellation, we'll always have ground based redundancy.

Don't get me wrong, I love the capability of my 480. Being able to shoot an LPV to Podunk Airport is awesome. But, having come from flying with no auto pilot with NDB, VOR & ILS in the Army, I know that setup works for 90 % of the flights I do as a civilian.

Use what you have available to you and worry about moving up to GPS later on. Nothing unsafe about using ground based NAVAIDs in the meantime.
 
Yes! Exact same discussion! Some saying it's a great addition to efficiency and safety; others saying you're not a "real pilot" unless you don't use it since, if you use them, it proves you are unable to fly without them!
Not even close to the same discussion unless you are just trying to stir up old arguments for the sake of stirring the pot.

At issue and germane to the OP's question is really the availability of approaches. You can have mad Jimmy Doolittle skills and they aren't going to help you much if the only approach available requires GPS.
 
But a GPS won't help you fly off a carrier deck either.
 
But a GPS won't help you fly off a carrier deck either.

He's referring to something else Jimmy Doolittle did. That guy had brass cojones. He's also the first guy to fly an instrument flight, with a rather extreme "view limiting device."
 
IOW for situational awareness. I agree that's the best way to use the moving map. :)
I also used the color change on the moving map to determine when I reached step-down fixes. That's more than just situational awareness.
 
You will want an IFR GPS, so it will just depend on appropriate pricing. If you can get a plane cheap enough that you can add an IFR GPS and meet your budget, that could be worth considering.

The 414 is /A. I have a ~3000 nm trip coming up this weekend. Being /A is already annoying me, and I haven't taken off yet. I'll make due with /A and Garmin Pilot on the iPad, but it's by no means ideal and I am going to do the upgrade eventually.
 
Not even close to the same discussion unless you are just trying to stir up old arguments for the sake of stirring the pot.

At issue and germane to the OP's question is really the availability of approaches. You can have mad Jimmy Doolittle skills and they aren't going to help you much if the only approach available requires GPS.
I guess you missed the comments like "More examples of children of the magenta that are far too prevalent. Loss of a moving map is an emergency to them. Truly sad"

Yes, the OP's question was much more targeted to utility, but the same old discussion still goes on.
 
I guess you missed the comments like "More examples of children of the magenta that are far too prevalent. Loss of a moving map is an emergency to them. Truly sad"

Yes, the OP's question was much more targeted to utility, but the same old discussion still goes on.

Still a bit excessive. Not being able to function without a moving map is not acceptable for an instrument-rated pilot. It might be irritating and make for additional workload, but it should not be an emergency. Ever.

Yes, the flip side works, too. A dead VOR head by itself is not an emergency, either, unless it lets the magic smoke out or is the sole navigational resource in IMC (then, it's an urgency and needs a vector from ATC).
 
Still a bit excessive. Not being able to function without a moving map is not acceptable for an instrument-rated pilot. It might be irritating and make for additional workload, but it should not be an emergency. Ever.

Yes, the flip side works, too. A dead VOR head by itself is not an emergency, either, unless it lets the magic smoke out or is the sole navigational resource in IMC (then, it's an urgency and needs a vector from ATC).
There is a distinction between "I prefer" and "I can't do without." A distinction lost on a number of folks.
 
There is a distinction between "I prefer" and "I can't do without." A distinction lost on a number of folks.

There is also a distinction between a controlled-error display (CDI) and an arbitrary one, which seems to be lost here as well. The CDI is FAR more precise than the moving map, unless the latter is zoomed far in. And with it zoomed that far in, you lose much of the SA because you can't see what's coming next.

Now, I've used the moving map in a partial panel situation (and on a G1000, you don't have a TC to stabilize yourself in that situation), but I find it leads to a lot of "chasing the needle" and it's better just to use the mag compass and standby AI to hold a straight heading. Wacky as hell instrument scan, but it works.
 
What am I missing? I think it's easy to "fly the needle" My Cherokee 180 has ILS/LOC/VOR (2CDI's) I am not planning to upgrade to panel GPS (prob a 430) until I finish up the last bit of my IR training.
 
What am I missing? I think it's easy to "fly the needle" My Cherokee 180 has ILS/LOC/VOR (2CDI's) I am not planning to upgrade to panel GPS (prob a 430) until I finish up the last bit of my IR training.
You are not missing anything. Properly flying GPS involves flying the needle.
 
Flying the line vs. flying the needle isn't the issue. It's looking at the presentation and understanding where you are and where you are going next. Believe me, there have been fatal crashes where people get confused (my favorite locally was a guy who was found to be tracking a nearby VOR when he was supposed to be following the ILS). Sure there are ways in place to prevent that confusion, but a moving map would have clued him in instantly that he wasn't heading towards the airport.
 
Disagree that an autopilot is required for "real IFR." I've lost count of the number of 1-2 hour slogs through IMC on my typical 3.5 hours legs in the Lancair, almost none of which involved using the A/P.

Forget the moving map or magenta line on a GPS, the real value of a GPS is knowing where you are, your track over the ground, your desired track for the current leg, and the lateral distance from the course (the cross-track error). That information makes enroute navigation a snap, along with the lateral portion of any approach. Once you start flying approaches in the weather, you'll see how much crosswind correction you need during some approaches, and how it changes every few hundred feet. GPS makes that simple...just keep the TRK and DTK the same and get the XTK (cross track error) as close to 0.00nm as you can get it. The needles won't move if you do this, no matter what the wind does. If you're /A or/U (no GPS), you'll be reacting to the needles and won't really have a sense for how much correction to apply as the wind changes with every step.

I've got about 650 hours in the Lancair now, total autopilot time can't be more than 45 minutes, all told. Most of that was in VMC just testing it out.

No question for me, GPS is more valuable than A/P. Lastly, the value of WAAS will depend on the airports you're using. If the field has an ILS, the value of WAAS is diminished. That said, if I were to install a new GPS today in an airplane, I'd get a WAAS unit for sure (for the 2020 ADS-B out mandate if nothing else), however, if I were buying a used airplane and it had a Garmin 420 or Garmin 430 non-WAAS, I wouldn't rule it out unless my home airport had an LPV approach with low minimums and now ILS approach.

For some context, the number of times that having WAAS would've enabled me to get into a field that I otherwise couldn't have flown into due to weather has been exactly twice in more than 650 hours since I got my IR.
 
Forget the moving map or magenta line on a GPS, the real value of a GPS is knowing where you are, your track over the ground, your desired track for the current leg, and the lateral distance from the course (the cross-track error). That information makes enroute navigation a snap, along with the lateral portion of any approach. Once you start flying approaches in the weather, you'll see how much crosswind correction you need during some approaches, and how it changes every few hundred feet. GPS makes that simple...just keep the TRK and DTK the same and get the XTK (cross track error) as close to 0.00nm as you can get it. The needles won't move if you do this, no matter what the wind does. If you're /A or/U (no GPS), you'll be reacting to the needles and won't really have a sense for how much correction to apply as the wind changes with every step.
Yet it's strange that many CFIIs don't teach this. My first CFII wasn't exactly sure what I was doing at first when I made corrections based on the difference between TRK and DTK, but eventually figured it out.
For some context, the number of times that having WAAS would've enabled me to get into a field that I otherwise couldn't have flown into due to weather has been exactly twice in more than 650 hours since I got my IR.
My very first solo flight in hard IMC, ATC gave me a LOC BC which had a 500 AGL MDA. Ceilings were hovering between 400 and 500. I asked for the LPV to the same runway (200 DA). Good thing, too, as I would not have gotten in on the LOC BC. I'll admit it hasn't happened since, but given how many LPV approaches there are now, many at airports without an ILS, it's a capability I wouldn't want to be without.
 
The A/P, well that's important too for single pilot IFR, there is a reason for single pilot IFR in the 135 world you NEED a autopilot in lieu of a SIC.

As I recall that's only for hauling passengers under Part 135, unless the rules have been changed; in the early '90s I was hauling canceled checks in a C-310, no autopilot needed for the 135 single pilot freight dogs! I flew solo 5 nights a week in all kinds of weather with no autopilot or GPS... the horror! Does that make me a crusty old fart? Hey you kids, get off my lawn!!
 
D

No question for me, GPS is more valuable than A/P. Lastly, the value of WAAS will depend on the airports you're using. If the field has an ILS, the value of WAAS is diminished. That said, if I were to install a new GPS today in an airplane, I'd get a WAAS unit for sure (for the 2020 ADS-B out mandate if nothing else), however, if I were buying a used airplane and it had a Garmin 420 or Garmin 430 non-WAAS, I wouldn't rule it out unless my home airport had an LPV approach with low minimums and now ILS approach.

For some context, the number of times that having WAAS would've enabled me to get into a field that I otherwise couldn't have flown into due to weather has been exactly twice in more than 650 hours since I got my IR.

That was kind of my point. GPS is wonderful, but not absolutely required these days. A lot of us have drunk the cool aid.
 
It's pretty obvious when crossing a VOR. It shows cross track error rather than angular error and has no zone of confusion.
Of course. That's just basic understanding of the operation and limitations of the equipment you fly.
 
As I recall that's only for hauling passengers under Part 135, unless the rules have been changed; in the early '90s I was hauling canceled checks in a C-310, no autopilot needed for the 135 single pilot freight dogs! I flew solo 5 nights a week in all kinds of weather with no autopilot or GPS... the horror! Does that make me a crusty old fart? Hey you kids, get off my lawn!!

Lol, I think you're right about the cargo part.

I'm my neck of the woods if you can't fly a GPS approach and go direct you're more or less not IFR capable.
 
That was kind of my point. GPS is wonderful, but not absolutely required these days. A lot of us have drunk the cool aid.

My point is that GPS is wonderful and I'd rather have it than an A/P, but WAAS isn't a must have if the fields you visit have an ILS.
 
A GPS is simply an extremely accurate type of positioning. The only special "skill" involved in flying solely via traditional navaids is understanding and accounting for all of their shortcomings. If you have issues flying without your moving map that's a problem with complacency due to advanced avionics, not GPS per se. In a glass cockpit you can fly solely via VORs and still develop the same complacency.

And for what it's worth the FAA will shut down all VORs eventually when a ground-based backup positioning system is in place (APNT). Resisting GPS is just putting an expiration on your instrument skills.
 
And for what it's worth the FAA will shut down all VORs eventually when a ground-based backup positioning system is in place (APNT).

I doubt we will see that in our lifetime.
 
Back
Top