roncachamp
Final Approach
The controller must ensure the readback is correct and correct whatever is read back incorrectly. As long as a correct readback precedes taxi clearance there's no danger.
GPS Direct or: How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Magenta Line
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The controller must ensure the readback is correct and correct whatever is read back incorrectly. As long as a correct readback precedes taxi clearance there's no danger.
denverpilot
Tied Down
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
When I first flew IFR to Dallas (Addison, KADS to be precise) in 2014, I spent a good amount of time studying Denver's and Dallas' STARs and DPs. Same with Houston and even Tulsa. I had my procedures picked out by which ones came closest to approximating a direct route. I have almost always filed a procedure if an appropriate one is available because I know that if I don't, at least in Class B cities, I'm getting a DP (or an annoying full route clearance) anyway.
It used to be a moderate to large PITA to review all the procedures in FF to figure out which ones to use on arrival and departure. Their procedure planner made that a lot easier IMHO. (They could make it easier still by separating all those "Turbojet Only" procedures.)
But the point is that when you fly IFR into big cities you do yourself a huge favor by becoming familiar with the procedures there.
It used to be a moderate to large PITA to review all the procedures in FF to figure out which ones to use on arrival and departure. Their procedure planner made that a lot easier IMHO. (They could make it easier still by separating all those "Turbojet Only" procedures.)
But the point is that when you fly IFR into big cities you do yourself a huge favor by becoming familiar with the procedures there.
Sac Arrow
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Snorting his way across the USA
True story...
I was leaving KSAC one time. KSAC has three intersecting runways. Runway 20 was in use that day, so I call ground and get my taxi clearance and head there. A short while later a Tri Pacer with some really old sounding guy calls up and gets a taxi clearance for the same.
I arrive and do my runup. No Tri Pacer. A short while later, ground calls up.
Ground: "Tri Pacer, where are you?"
Tri Pacer: "I'm at two zero."
Ground: "Nooooooo. You're at three four."
A short while later....
Tri Pacer: "Tri Pacer is ready to go at two zero."
Tower: "Tri Pacer. You are at three four. But you are cleared to take off from three four if you wish." Tri Pacer takes off and then silence.
Me: "Arrow is ready to go on two zero."
Tower: "Say direction of flight?"
Me: "Which way is the Tri Pacer going?"
Tower: "He appears to be going South West."
Me: "Then I'll go North East."
Tower: "Wise idea."
I was leaving KSAC one time. KSAC has three intersecting runways. Runway 20 was in use that day, so I call ground and get my taxi clearance and head there. A short while later a Tri Pacer with some really old sounding guy calls up and gets a taxi clearance for the same.
I arrive and do my runup. No Tri Pacer. A short while later, ground calls up.
Ground: "Tri Pacer, where are you?"
Tri Pacer: "I'm at two zero."
Ground: "Nooooooo. You're at three four."
A short while later....
Tri Pacer: "Tri Pacer is ready to go at two zero."
Tower: "Tri Pacer. You are at three four. But you are cleared to take off from three four if you wish." Tri Pacer takes off and then silence.
Me: "Arrow is ready to go on two zero."
Tower: "Say direction of flight?"
Me: "Which way is the Tri Pacer going?"
Tower: "He appears to be going South West."
Me: "Then I'll go North East."
Tower: "Wise idea."
Gucci Pilot
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I don't get why SIDS/STARS seem like such a mystery to GA pilots? It was clear this guy had no clue what was going on. If I was that ground controller I probably would have called departure and said that this guy was clueless. Can he get radar vectors?
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Yikes. That was pretty bad. Some of the things you hear on the radio..
Sac Arrow
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Snorting his way across the USA
Probably not if the departure route was out of radar coverage or below the MVA for a portion.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
They were trying to clear him to 3000' with radar vectors to join Hubbard 8, and then expect 9000 in 10 so I don't think he was below MVA.
In any case we don't know... he may have called them said "get ready".
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Which makes me wonder... how bad does a pilot have to sound on the radio to make you withhold taxi clearance? or offer a VFR departure??
roncachamp
Final Approach
If he provides a correct readback he gets a taxi clearance when he's ready to taxi. If he elects to depart VFR instead the readback is no longer an issue. I would not offer a VFR departure.
RussR
En-Route
No, it's a necessary part of operating IFR. Should the controller have queried him if he's current? Or if he has a valid medical? The controller clearly referred to the HUBBARD EIGHT SID, a common clearance (I assume) out of that airport. If the pilot doesn't know what that is, he needs to 1) admit it, and 2) not fly IFR until he does - what other glaring gaps are there in his knowledge?
That's such a ridiculous provision anymore that IMO the option should be removed from the various texts. If you have the approaches for the airport you are at, there's almost no way anymore you shouldn't have the SIDs as well.
So you're saying it's bad for the controller to assume that the pilot has complied with 91.103 to have "all available information" concerning that flight? Let's see - if the pilot is using an EFB then the SIDs are easily obtainable. If the pilot is using paper charts, he should certainly have the book that includes the airport he's departing from, shouldn't he? And therefore will have the SID in the same book. Or option 3, maybe he only printed out the charts he knew he was going to need? Well, that's just as equally poor planning.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Some airports (I don't know about this one) have a whole stack of possible SIDs. It isn't implausible that the pilot wouldn't have this particular one out to reference.
RussR
En-Route
It has 9. So I could understand a little confusion on the first try at the clearance, we've all had to have ATC repeat some part of a clearance at some time. But so what? Once you hear "HUBBARD EIGHT", you flip to that SID. Not a big deal. Then you ask for a repeat of a few details and get it. Routine.
No, this guy pretty clearly was completely unprepared. Didn't have SIDs (which implies he didn't have an approach book at all), hadn't found out common routings out of there, looked at surrounding NAVAIDs, or anything.
I should add that I'm not completely negative on bashing the guy. He clearly needs some refresher training. IFR is a complicated world and it's easy to lose skills that aren't used often (like perhaps SIDs in his part of the world). Hey, I'd even be happy to work with him to bring him up to speed, if he either comes out to OKC or pays for me to fly to him!
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I'm going to guess option 4: he has a panel mount GPS, but limited understanding of how to use it.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Right. And no, there is no requirement that pilot be in possession of SIDs and DPs.
SIDs and DPs are simply named shorthand for the route segments they cover in order to keep from having to read out an entire route every time. They're helpful and it's annoying when pilots ignore them, but they are not required.
This does not qualify as not having "all information pertinent to the flight" as long as the pilot has a low altitude enroute chart (he did). He just shouldn't have accepted the DP or he should have looked it up before trying the readback. But that's not the same as a 91.103 violation.
However, if clearance gives a DP that the pilot doesn't possess in at least text format, it's the pilot's responsibility to say so. They can then issue him the longhand instructions.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
You don't need to examine the SID in order to read back the clearance. You can read it back and then examine the procedure. If there are questions after examining it be sure to ask them.
TheGolfPilot
Line Up and Wait
This guy needs to shut down his plane and drive his car.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
Heck you can even ask them to spell it, go look it up, request changes if necessary, and then give your readback. There's no law that says you have to read the clearance back immediately and without pause in your best captain voice.
I've heard pilots who didn't have certain intersections in their database or had to ask for spellings.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
That's true but the guy clearly though the controller was saying "equipment", not "Quitman". When this happens to me I mumble something that sounds close then look up the SID.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
That's true but the guy clearly though the controller was saying "equipment", not "Quitman". When this happens to me I mumble something that sounds close then look up the SID.
Quitman was the transition. If he'd had the Hubbard 8 DP he'd have had that in writing. He just needed to confirm Hubbard 8, then go look it up, and then come back for a redo.
It sounded to me like he was totally thrown for a loop with the issuance of a DP. Almost sounded like he didn't understand them at all.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
I don't know about now, but when I got my IFR, the requirement was for only one IFR X-C during training. So if your home airport did not have SIDS or STARS or you were not assigned one during that X-C you might not ever see one for real during training. Hopefully your CFI would have taken you to a place that has one but...
The same goes for IFR pilots who are confused about how to pick up a clearance at an uncontrolled airport. They may have not been exposed to this during training.
I realize that you are supposed to learn these things during ground school, but if they are not reinforced by practical use they can be confusing.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Yeah, Quitman was the transition not the name of the SID, but it's hard to look for it on the chart when you have a completely wrong idea of what to look for.
uncreative
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Uncreative
It's not ridiculous if your aircraft doesn't have the performance to meet the climb criteria of any of the SIDs out of an airport. Probably not something to consider when you're from the midwest, but out in the west there are some airports that have SIDs that most SE bugsmashers can't keep up with.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Putting it in remarks does not mean you won't be cleared via the SID procedure, it just means it won't be issued in the coded format.
RussR
En-Route
I am fully aware of climb gradient requirements.
You do realize that putting "NO SID" on the flight plan just means the controller's going to have to read it to you verbatim, longhand, right? It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you can fly it.
NO SID = "I don't HAVE the SID", not "I can't ACCEPT the routing specified in the SID".
Any time you can't comply with an ATC clearance it's your responsibility to say so. "NO SID" is not the right way to do that.
So you ask for another SID, or ask for the ODP, or just don't depart that day.
"NO SID" was born in a time when the SIDs and STARs were physically in a different printed book than the approaches. So it was reasonable and common to not have them.
However, I'm trying to think of a valid, practical reason nowadays to not have them and therefore file "NO SID". They're in the same book as the approaches for the airport, just a few pages away. If you're using an EFB, they're probably already downloaded. If you're just printing a few charts off the internet, well, you had to intentionally decide to NOT print off the SIDs so you had to have at least have looked at them to determine if you needed to print them off or not.
ChemGuy
Cleared for Takeoff
it sounded like he couldn't even understand the Maverick VZOR radial to the SOLDO INT to the quitman VOR radial. Even if you have know idea where those are a competent pilot should be able to right those instructions down, find them and go ah, ha know I get it.
this guy is an NTSB report waiting to happen
this guy is an NTSB report waiting to happen
BigBadLou
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Lou
It is the indictment of our fallible ground schooling system. If I was a CFII, I would not sign off a student for a checkride unless he/she demonstrates knowledge of ALL preflight planning required for instrument flight.
At my instrument checkride oral, I pulled out the SID diagram AND textual description (on the second page) and the DPE's eyes got big. When I pulled out the takeoff minima page, his face lit up and he just flat out asked "you knew about that??" I asked him with an even more puzzled look: "am I the first one??"
That scared me a little.
JCranford
En-Route
My thought as well. I did initial training at McKinny, but I've run West. Apparently I got tired of running quickly so I'm out of Hicks
I did my training at TKI too. I know that controller (by voice at least). I'm surprised he stayed that patient!
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
I shared the story with one of my tower friends. He emailed back
They always say you can ID a Mooney on radar by its dual targets. First is the plane followed by the pilot, who is way behind it.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
It's easy to look for it on the DP if you get the controller to spell the name of the DP. But at this point I'm not even sure the guy knew what a DP was.
I wonder too if his brain locked up upon 'hearing' "equipment transition"
ATC: "...equipment transition..."
Pilot: .-- .... .- - - .... . ..-. ..- ..- ..- ..- ..- -.-. -.-
uncreative
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Uncreative
AIM 5-1-8 Domestic IFR Flight Plans (b.)(6)
"Pilots not desiring a SID or STAR should so indicate in the
remarks section of the flight plan as “no SID” or “no
STAR.""
How does "not desiring" = "I don't HAVE the SID"?
"Pilots not desiring a SID or STAR should so indicate in the
remarks section of the flight plan as “no SID” or “no
STAR.""
How does "not desiring" = "I don't HAVE the SID"?
Everskyward
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Everskyward
It's easy to look for it on the DP if you get the controller to spell the name of the DP. But at this point I'm not even sure the guy knew what a DP was.
I wonder too if his brain locked up upon 'hearing' "equipment transition"
ATC: "...equipment transition..."
Pilot: .-- .... .- - - .... . ..-. ..- ..- ..- ..- ..- -.-. -.-
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
Ditto, and I did a few X-Cty to B air spaces, here in Florida they usually just RV you to where they want you, as least for 172 types, probably to keep you out of the way.
My first STAR was in Dallas, and has been the only time I got one.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You'll have to ask the folks who write the AIM.
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No he gave him the frequency. Not once did he say "No it's QUITMAN VOR IDENTIFIER UMI" not "EQUIPMENT"
The controller then didn't just say, I'll give you a route without the SID, he attempted to read out the SID to the guy which just further confused him as to where in his route things went (though the "after QUITMAN DIRECT DESTINATION" seems to have been lost on him too, and I don't know how much simpler than that you can get).
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Got it. When the pilot asked ATC for runway 18 and ATC let out a huge sigh, I was dying.
uncreative
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Uncreative
Must have been the same folks that wrote the Instrument Procedures Handbook, too. From page 1-25:
"If you cannot comply with a SID, if you do not possess the
charted SID procedure, or if you simply do not wish to
use SIDs, include the statement “NO SIDs” in the remarks
section of your flight plan."
Can you cite any source that contradicts what is stated in the AIM or Instrument Procedures Handbook?
I know I'm taking this thread slightly off course, but I'm trying to understand how what my CFII taught me was wrong when the AIM and IPH agree with him.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Well, that section goes on to say:
"Doing so notifies ATC that they cannot issue you a clearance containing a SID, but instead will clear you via your filed route to the extent possible, or via a Preferential Departure Route....
...While you are not required to depart using a SID, it may be more difficult to receive an "as filed" clearance when departing busy airports that frequently use SID routing."
So, it sounds like you don't have to use it or even know how to fly it, but as was stated, you'll receive a clearance that will basically have you flying the SID anyways.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I don't know if it was just laziness on the pilot's part or why he asked that, but by then and all the prior garbage, I'd have said negative and made him taxi to 36.