Got Scammed on “Checkout” flight - Advice?

I'm going on a trip next week, its pretty long, so will burn through a lot of gas. I hope they don't rip me off, and only charge me 14 cents a liter.
 
I remember doing a checkout for a guy in a 172RG. Among other things, he forgot to bring the gear up twice and forgot to put it down twice. When I told him he was going to need at least another flight in order to rent it, he got mad and never came back. I believe I saved the owner some damage history there.
 
172andyou said:
I'm shocked at the number of people saying things like "their plane, their rules" instead of noting that he got taken for 2.3 hours and a BFR only requires one hour. So this FBO required more than double what the FAA requires to show competency. That's just wrong.
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Rent out your own cessna. See how long you like "lenient checkouts" when the mob shows up and starts trashing your stuff.

We had a new leather-interiored C172S with the G1000, fresh from the factory in Kansas, and I fetched it back to our FBO with my dad. It took exactly 6 rental hours for someone to have a pen in their back pocket puncture the pilot seat leather and need repaired. It was sometime before the first oil change that one of our linemen found a half-eaten and melted snickers bar in the back seat, which took him a long evening to clean up. It's not just airmanship that a checkout looks for, it's respectfulness, local custom and procedure, and care of the equipment and airfield too. After awhile, a rental outfit will have its own procedures, rituals, and peccadilloes, and you can be sure that any strange ones were placed there one clueless rooster wagon at a time.

The FAA/Flight Review minima have nothing to do with it, nor is "if I fly for an hour every two years, I am entitled to a signoff" a correct lens to view aviation through, as you seem to be doing.

The only way a person can get "scammed" in a rental aircraft checkout is if there is truly no possible completion to the checkout and they're just getting milked. We have no way to know if that was the outcome here, nor will we ever. Also, we can't easily assign an hour value to it, since each pilot is different, and some out there truly should never be considered "checked out" to fly anything more complex than a propeller beanie and tricycle -- and they should be told so when that becomes apparent.

$0.02
 
The time for the checkout seems a bit much, but the OP seemed to be advocating no check out should be needed. I have yet to see a place that does not require a check out.
 
Kritchlow said:
The time for the checkout seems a bit much, but the OP seemed to be advocating no check out should be needed. I have yet to see a place that does not require a check out.
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IME, pilots with an attitude of “I don’t need to prove anything to you” tend to prove they aren’t up to the task.
 
schmookeeg said:
some out there truly should never be considered "checked out" to fly anything more complex than a propeller beanie and tricycle -- and they should be told so when that becomes apparent.
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Prop & Trike (1).jpg
 
Dave Theisen said:
Back on the old AOPA board, there were a few folks who used to claim that they would never rent from somewhere that required a checkout, and that they were regularly just tossed the keys. I always thought they were full of ****.
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I bet one of those posters also went on and on about hydrogen power, and claimed a number of other things.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Back on the old AOPA board, there were a few folks who used to claim that they would never rent from somewhere that required a checkout, and that they were regularly just tossed the keys.
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Come and get my plane and I'll toss you the keys ... as soon as the check clears. I ain't believing that either ... ;)
 
Maybe I’m getting old, but 2.3hrs for a checkout at $270hr for a 172 is crazy. Even at 70hr for the CFI that’s 200hr for a 172

Also any CFI worth his certificate should be able to tell if the guy has what it takes to rent the mighty skychicken in 1hr, beyond that it’s not a check out anymore, it’s remedial dual instruction, and should be communicated as such.

The poster, if real, also has a clock, after a hour was up he should have asked where is this going, but if he was willing to pay that much for a 172 he might not have known better.
 
For 2.3 hours you should have gotten a new rating.

Companies have loaned me $70,000 cars and only asked to see my driver's license. A checkout is okay. 2.3 hours isn't.
 
frfly172 said:
What area are you in,on most 172 check out flights they go over the g1000 in the 172. I would think 2.3 hours might be a little excessive. Just my opinion.
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Going from a six-pack 172 to the G1000 would certainly burn more than a few hours!
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Going from a six-pack 172 to the G1000 would certainly burn more than a few hours!
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Not for VFR, not flight time, plug it in, show them the menu logic, just charge ground, once they are good, fire up and it’s still just a 172, all the same instruments just on a screen now, maybe have them sign that they understand this is a checkout for VFR ops only, easy
 
2.3 hours back in the day some instructors would have been ready to solo you at that point. :)
 
LesGawlik said:
For 2.3 hours you should have gotten a new rating.
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That assumes proficiency, which the OP never claimed. He simply stated that he had enough time and little enough plans for using the airplane that he shouldn’t be required to demonstrate any form of proficiency.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That assumes proficiency, which the OP never claimed. He simply stated that he had enough time and little enough plans for using the airplane that he shouldn’t be required to demonstrate any form of proficiency.
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Really? If you were doing the checkout would it take you 2.3 hours to determine whether your employer should rent the plane or not? If I wasn't satisfied of the examinee's proficiency in the first .3, the next two hours would not change my mind.
 
LesGawlik said:
Really? If you were doing the checkout would it take you 2.3 hours to determine whether your employer should rent the plane or not? If I wasn't satisfied of the examinee's proficiency in the first .3, the next two hours would not change my mind.
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True…crappy pilots aren’t trainable.
 
GotScammed said:
my question is, are these lame “checkout” flights for the school or the insurance? If I have a lot of time in the make and model, why do I have to go through their dumb checkout in order to fly it? Who’s behind it??
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Usually it's a operator requirement. While they often blame insurance, if a pilot meets the insurance OPW, they are good to go. If the operator says insurance, ask to see the declarations page of the policy. Likely won't produce it. Or just suck it up and do the checkout. I have done several 172 checkouts despite having owned a 172 for several yrs. One operator said if I did a checkout in the most complex plane they had on the line, then I would be checked out in all their rental planes - and they said it's insurance, which was BS. Conversely, I once went to work at a flight school as a CFI and never got checkout out in any of the planes prior to instructing in them.
Just use the checkout time to educate the CFI. But like Dalton says "Be nice"
 
GotScammed said:
my question is, are these lame “checkout” flights for the school or the insurance? If I have a lot of time in the make and model, why do I have to go through their dumb checkout in order to fly it? Who’s behind it??
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Yes, typical.. and usually the fancier the plane he more extensive the checkout. It's a combination of owner and insurance requirement. There are places that require at least 3 hrs dual to rent out their nicer equipment (SR22, DA62, etc). A G1000 Cessna, while "just a trainer", is "nicer" and I can understand them wanting to give you a thorough review. Hours also don't mean much, it's a common bragging point for some people but it doesn't directly translate to proficiency, especially in a particular type. It's also 2022, not 1936. Let's say you don't do a checkout and you end up balling up their plane somehow. Insurance will ask "how did you validate their proficiency in a g1000?" .. the owner will look pretty stupid if says "haha, the guy had almost 1,300 hours man, he didn't need no stinkin checkout! Plus we shook on it, he swore he was the best damn pilot out there!"


The best way to avoid these "scams" .. or otherwise onerous club or school requirements is to buy your own plane, or, if you think there's a market out there for no-checkout clubs for people with over X hours then buy up some airplanes and start your own club
 
There is no way to know OP’s attitude during the flight, he may have been quiet and respectful, thus the CFI saw an opportunity to log more hours. Now after the fact, the OP is complaining here about it to vent his frustration.

Check-outs are normal, but some clubs make it a profitable venture, such as when I did my complex endorsement, even though the instructor said everything was good about 5-6 hours in, at that point I asked for the endorsement and he said the company requires 10 hours. I did feel taken advantage of, but I used this to get some IFR long xc in as well. Another point is the instructor added 0.2-0.4 hours of ground time to fill out the logbooks and the debriefing post flight.

Another place I went to, I called up to book the plane and instructor, advised of weight and balance ahead of time. When we arrived, the plane was at the back of a box hangar and needed fuel to be removed to meet W&B. At the end of the flight, with no ground training at all, they added 1.5 hours ground time in addition to the flight. I never returned and have told everyone about their overcharging practices as a heads up.

A lot of newer young pilots want the G1000 and nicer equipment, that’s great and all, but when the CFI charges you to fill out logbooks and ground time that didn’t exist, and they merely want you in and out, I don’t see the fun in that. I’ve joined a club that doesn’t charge ground time and they hang out afterwards if you want to have a social aspect to it, that gives me more satisfaction than the other places.

Just book a dual lesson if you’re interested in a club and you’ll know pretty quickly whether you want to be part of that club or not. It’s also up to you to complain about the charging as well - if we have a bunch of young folks who accept their beatings then that becomes the industry norm. Plenty of times I’ve been overcharged by FBO’s and usually when I called them out on it, I’ve been refunded more than I should have been as an apology. Mistakes happen, mistakes on purpose also happens. A lot of FBOs also save your credit card information and tie it to a tail number, so that’s important to check your statements in case a future renter went to the same FBO and they charged your card from a previous visit.
 
So much to comment on here, some things I will agree with, others not so readily depending on the scenario and circumstances.

mandm said:
Check-outs are normal, but some clubs make it a profitable venture, such as when I did my complex endorsement, even though the instructor said everything was good about 5-6 hours in, at that point I asked for the endorsement and he said the company requires 10 hours. I did feel taken advantage of, but I used this to get some IFR long xc in as well.
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Did they tell you up front that they required 10 hours for the checkout?
Also, you/they need to differentiate between the complex endorsement and the aircraft rental checkout. They're not the same thing. If you were ready for the endorsement in 5-6 hours, the CFI should have signed you off for that but not the aircraft checkout if it requires 10 hours. Not a whole lot of practical difference perhaps, but maybe you want the complex endorsement for some other reason than to fly that actual airplane.

Another point is the instructor added 0.2-0.4 hours of ground time to fill out the logbooks and the debriefing post flight.
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I don't see an inherent problem with this. Did the CFI not spend at least .2 to .4 with you on the ground? Are you expecting the CFI to work for free during those times? I charge "handshake-to-handshake" time. If we're together for 1.8, I charge 1.8, regardless of whether the flight was 1.5, 1.2, whatever. My time is in no way connected to the airplane time. Now, you get value during that time, but sure, some of it is spent just getting in the airplane or closing the hangar door, etc. Or even the minute that is spent writing in the logbook.

Another place I went to, I called up to book the plane and instructor, advised of weight and balance ahead of time. When we arrived, the plane was at the back of a box hangar and needed fuel to be removed to meet W&B.
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That's a tricky one - I've had that situation before, where the school/club/FBO policy is to fill it up (or to some other level) after every flight but you need something else for yours. If you're talking to the person at the desk, chances are good that word will not get passed down reliably. About the best way is to take control yourself and call the previous renter and tell them (if you self-fuel) - or call the FBO close to the time you see them land, or be there in person to watch the fueling. That really is one of the big hassles of renting. Many owners I know with higher-performance airplanes fill up BEFORE a flight for that exact reason.

At the end of the flight, with no ground training at all, they added 1.5 hours ground time in addition to the flight. I never returned and have told everyone about their overcharging practices as a heads up.
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Obviously you shouldn't be paying for time that didn't happen. But the time to correct that is right then when you pay the bill.

I’ve joined a club that doesn’t charge ground time
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I do know some CFIs that don't "charge" for ground time. Well, sure they really do, they're just rolling that into their flight time rate. I've never understood why they do it, or why they claim it "makes the math easier", but effectively if they are doing so they're charging a higher rate for just flight time than they would if they charged for all time. But if that's what they want to do, no problem with me. If they charge $60/hour, a 1.5 hour flight bills at $90. If they actually spent 2 hours with you, they are effectively charging $45/hour. If that rate is okay with them, then it's none of my business.
 
I’m pretty good with math and I know the difference. As for the complex endorsement, I only wanted the endorsement. I was not told nor did I ask about the minimum requirements, I never rented their plane solo.

Typically at the flight schools with higher rates such as $75/hour, in addition to flight time, additional ground time is charged. If filling out a logbook requires 0.2-0.4 of ground time, feels a bit off putting. How long does it take to sign a logbook?

At my regular flight school, instruction rates are $45/hour. Ground time is rarely charged unless doing substantial proper ground, aka sitting down in a learning setting, BFR, mock oral checkride, etc. But even if 0.2 was added of $45/hr, that is fine.

Anyway, some CFIs and schools are there to milk every penny, like a puppy mill. That’s great and might work for some people, just not my cup of tea.
 
mandm said:
Typically at the flight schools with higher rates such as $75/hour, in addition to flight time, additional ground time is charged. If filling out a logbook requires 0.2-0.4 of ground time, feels a bit off putting. How long does it take to sign a logbook?
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I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, and I guess in your previous post too. Are you saying you were together with the instructor for, say, 2 hours but then they added an arbitrary .2 (to make it 2.2) of time you didn't actually spend with them, saying it was for "filling out the logbook"? If so, that's wrong.

If, however, you're saying you flew for 1.8 but got charged for 2.0 of instructor time, during which time filling out the logbook was one of the things being done, then I don't see an issue at all. You were with the instructor for 2.0, he or she was doing things that pertained to you, it's completely legit and should be completely expected. In fact, that's pretty light pre-and post-flight. It's pretty rare I'm not doing about 0.5 of pre- and post-flight. Often, that's just as important to the learning process as the actual flight.

Now, if you're saying you weren't getting _quality_ instruction, that's a different story.

Anyway, some CFIs and schools are there to milk every penny, like a puppy mill.
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I agree 100% that there are those types of operations. And I've seen some where they do arbitrarily tack on extra time - like charging 0.5 for pre- and post-flight as a default, even if you didn't actually spend that long. But a CFI charging 2.0 when they were with you from 4 PM to 6 PM, regardless of how long you flew within that time frame, is completely normal and expected (as long as they're doing normal instructor-y things and not just chatting with the girl at the FBO counter).
 
More so saying that they did not prepare for the flight and charging time to rearrange aircraft, wait for fuel truck, etc. I just don’t think filling out a logbook should be chargeable, my opinion…
 
a friend (now retired) never charged for ground time when instructing. He very deliberately made that decision because he said that the USAF (aka taxpayers) paid for him to learn to fly and he didn't feel it was right to charge someone for the small amount of time he speant giving ground instruction. Of course, back in the day, the BFR didn't have a minimum of time for ground instruction, etc.

otoh - I never quibbled with a CFI or CFII about paying for his/her time.
 
When I instructed, it depended.

5 - 10 minutes debriefing and log book time, no charge.

An hour planning and briefing a XC flight, yeah, I would charge for that.
 
PaulS said:
...the guy didn't like my landings, which were all greasers. So I finally said to him " I have no idea what else you want to see, why don't you show me." So he took it around, got it over the runway and dropped it in from about 3 feet. I didn't say a word so he said to me, on the go, "Your controls, last landing, I'll sign you off."
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I like this method of dealing with a picky instructor.
 
Whitney said:
Somedays I feel like the only person on this forum without a bunch of 172 time.
I think it was late 90's, possibly 2000 I got 5 or 6 hours in a 172, nothing before or since.
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Me too! Only 0.6 out of 190+ Hours are in a 172. Otherwise low wing time. Lol
 
Dave Theisen said:
I remember doing a checkout for a guy in a 172RG. Among other things, he forgot to bring the gear up twice and forgot to put it down twice. When I told him he was going to need at least another flight in order to rent it, he got mad and never came back. I believe I saved the owner some damage history there.
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When I am checking someone out in a basic trainer (C172 or Cherokee), I treat it a bit like a BFR or PPL checkride without a huge ground portion. I will make sure they can conduct a proper pre-flight, can communicate well enough on the radio to get in and out of our busy airspace, that they follow checklists and look like they know what they are doing. We will do steep turns, slow flight, stalls, emergency procedures, and a series of normal, soft-field and short-field takeoffs and landings. We will also talk about performance, density altitude and terrain because of where we are in the mountain west.

If someone is proficient and current, it is easy enough and can be a little over an hour perhaps. Often however, they will not have flown in a long time and are bit rusty on a few things. I recognize they are learning a new airplane, maybe a new type and probably different avionics from what they have flown before.

It's my signature in their logbook so if it takes 2 or even 3 flights to show me they are safe and capable, I don't lose any sleep over it.

martym said:
Conversely, I once went to work at a flight school as a CFI and never got checkout out in any of the planes prior to instructing in them.
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As a CFI, I had to get checked out in the school's 172, 182 and Cherokee before instructing in them even though I had logged time in all of them. Much of my time in a 172 was old, so I had no problem getting back in one with another CFI for a checkout.
 
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DesertNomad said:
It's my signature in their logbook so if it takes 2 or even 3 flights to show me they are safe and capable, I don't lose any sleep over it.
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Everytime I've had a checkout or BFR, I've told the instructor that it'll take as long as it takes. If it's 2 or 3 flights (or more), then that's what it is.
 
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